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munin295

Vary casting quantities

13 posts in this topic

A knife uses much less metal than a sword, so casting tool heads should use different quantities of metal for each tool.

 

The simplest implementation would be to just say sword and mace casting consumes 200 units, putting them in-line with forging quantities.

 

A more complex implementation would use different quantities for each tool head. Based on like 3 minutes of googling modern average/typical weights (of tool heads, not entire tools) and guestimating that 100 units is about 1 kg, some suggestions:

  • 50 units: chisel, javelin, knife, propick
  • 100 units: hoe, saw, scythe, shovel
  • 150 units: axe, hammer1
  • 200 units: mace, pickaxe, sword

1 specifically, blacksmith hammer, which is what the TFC hammer is mostly used for

 

When it comes to forging, the heaviest five tools might all use double ingots, and any half-ingots "wasted" on 50/150-unit tools is just gone "in the process".

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I'm not sure if breaking things in to half ingots is worth it, I would like to get multiple tools out of one ingot for small things like chisels or javelins though. and i wouldn't mind if clay molds for maces and swords took 200 units making it the same as a double ingot.

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Axes and hammers could be bumped up to 200 units without straining incredulity -- 4 pounds isn't unreasonable for an axe head or a blacksmith hammer. That would get rid of the 150-unit class.

 

Yeah, letting you forge two chisels/javelins/knives/propicks from a single ingot is better than just wasting the half-ingot.

 

A pickaxe could reasonably go up to 250-300 units (5-6 lbs.), since it's supposed to be swung two-handed (I assumed one-handed for maces and swords), but I wasn't sure how you would represent forging that (maybe like forging armor?).

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I like this idea. I don't see anything wrong with 50 units or 150 units per item. We're not really talking in terms of ingots if we're just casting from melted metal in tool molds. The only reason that's really a standard unit in the casting age is because all the tools are currently the same as one ingot. If we changed that, which is the proposal here, you wouldn't just be thinking in terms of ingots / exact multiples of 100 units, would you?

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… you wouldn't just be thinking in terms of ingots / exact multiples of 100 units, would you?

Well, they're fine for casting, but for believability you want the amounts to be consistent with what will be used for forging, where everything is made from ingots, double ingots, sheets, and double sheets. The 50-unit tools can be handled in forging by allowing an ingot to make two tools (hmm, though tools don't stack in an output slot wrong, tool heads do stack), but how do you handle the 150-unit tools? Since all of these amounts are guestimates anyway, the easiest way to handle them is just to bump them up to 200 units.

Actually, 3-1/2 pounds is pretty typical for axe heads and blacksmith hammers, which is about 175 units (by my guestimate unit conversion), so it was a judgement call originally just to create the 150-unit category. I thought the 150-unit category made the suggestion more interesting (more categories), but the forging problem makes me think that should just be simplified by moving them to 200 units. If someone can think of a good way to handle forging 150-unit tool heads without wastage, we could put them back.

Edited by munin295
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mace and sword use double ingots on the anvil, casting them with 1ingot should be considered as a bug that the dev have not been able to fix.

 

You need to think about anvil, not only about casting, so it should be 1 or 2 ingots, no half ingots (that's my opinion at least)

 

Finally, I think having to collect 2 or even 3 ingots worth of small pieces to get only 1 pick is way too much. Now we can not mine without support, so you already need 3 tools to mine if you do not have visible surface ore (and I think it's already long enough to find metal for it)

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I like the idea of the 50 unit tools. The 150 unit tools are just not usable for the higher tiers, drop them to 100 units I would say. And a pickaxe should be 100 units otherwise the balance of the game would be gone. (I would otherwise have said send it too 150 unit tools but those are out of question) For the 50 unit tools I would suggest that higher tier tools need a splitting step because smitting 2 knife blades in one go would be weird. This would make swords and maces more of a big deal early game and metal knifes/ javelins more likeable.

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… I think having to collect 2 or even 3 ingots worth of small pieces to get only 1 pick is way too much. Now we can not mine without support, so you already need 3 tools to mine if you do not have visible surface ore (and I think it's already long enough to find metal for it)

… a pickaxe should be 100 units otherwise the balance of the game would be gone. …

Currently you pretty much have to find 300 units of metal to get out of the stone age -- 100 each for a pickaxe, propick, and saw (minimum tools to safely find and mine ore veins to get lots more metal). If the propick was 50 and the pickaxe 200, that would only increase the amount from 300 to 350 -- which doesn't exactly seem game-destroying. And for the other metal stages it would just mean an occasional extra ingot needed -- at most seven uses of a metal pickaxe (minimum durability 600), so it's not exactly like you're going to destroy your pickaxe trying to get another one.

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Currently you pretty much have to find 300 units of metal to get out of the stone age -- 100 each for a pickaxe, propick, and saw (minimum tools to safely find and mine ore veins to get lots more metal). If the propick was 50 and the pickaxe 200, that would only increase the amount from 300 to 350 -- which doesn't exactly seem game-destroying. And for the other metal stages it would just mean an occasional extra ingot needed -- at most seven uses of a metal pickaxe (minimum durability 600), so it's not exactly like you're going to destroy your pickaxe trying to get another one.

 

 

Erm....Try 100 units of copper. You don't need the propick, since copper nuggets should already have indicated to you the presence of copper (Unless you're panning in an area without copper bearing ores, in which case the pick and propick won't do you much good). Also, support beams are highly overrated, and certainly not needed to get your first stack of copper. 100->200 isn't all that bad, all things considered. It would be nice if the durability changed according to how much metal is used for the tool.

 

e.g.

Say copper tools have 500 base durability.

Knives take 1/2 an ingot, so they have 250 durability

A pickaxe takes 200 units, and so has 1000 durability.

 

Unfortunately this would kinda negate the bonus of being able to make 2 knives from 1 ingot, and actually increase the number of tools you have to carry around with you. But still, a nifty idea.

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I believe we plan to adjust maces and swords to use 200 units, but only because those items require a double ingot on the anvil. Using less than a full ingot for casting would be hard to balance for anvils.

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Well, this idea would be interestinng alongside some kind of scrap metal, witch can be melt down again for their precious metal units,

one would like to cut ingots in the anvil to easyer manage of alloys,

cutting metal bits from ingots with the desired amount of units can be usefull to match our crucible recipe needs,

it would allow a small amount of any steel to be cooked instead of that big amounts needed due to the minimun amount of an alloy you can trow into a crucible is 100 units

if I'm not wrong you need to cook 10 ingots to get blue steel

you'll need 20 to reach the best ratio with minimun black steel

this idea would fit if the anvil spit out the extra metal in this form when making not full ingot tools

 

yeah, i'm making a topic about metal bits right now;...

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