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aliceingame

TFC recontructed

26 posts in this topic

I recently saw so many people seeming frustrated because the game is to hardcore or that the game is not realistic enough, people complaining about the developers interpretation of "believability" or even unhappy that their suggestion are ignored, for good or bad reasons.

 

What if...

 

 

What if TFC was reconstructed from scratch. A kind of TFC reboot where every single step of the development would have to start from community suggestions to evolve into a fully detailed plan that would include everything from the key mechanism to crafting recipe to mathematical formulas of rules if needed. Every suggestions would have to be weighted for their good points and their bad points, where any idea would have to be accepted or refused with strong logical arguments. A mod without a clear author, as every general plan would be open for any programme to implement.

 

Then, I am really wondering what could be achieved. Would it be possible to build constructive plans to create a fun mod. Would we get capable programmers implementing the new planned features.

 

My question is, do you think that a mod 100% created by a community is possible ? And where would if lead to...

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Honestly? I don't think this is something that could realistically happen, and have any sort of decent result. "Too many cooks spoil the pot" if you will. Humans are extremely diverse, and it would be pretty much impossible to get any sort of strong near-unanimous majority on most of the things put up as suggestion.

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you would never be able to get ppl to agree on everything, like kitty said

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Well, I think that it would be a part of the challenge to create a framework and initial vision. To create mechanism to make choices. To have convincing people to push some ideas forward, to make the idea progress.

 

That could be a fun social experiment. It could lead to surprising results.

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If it was done, maybe with a voting system for the community to choose what comes next that would be cool. However that doesn't mean starting over Dunk and Bioxx if they wanted to could do that where they suggest feature they want implemented or they like then we vote on the next update to TFC.

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Unless you have craptons of config options, it won't work. And probably won't work with that too.

 

For every mechanic, there will be people who want something different.

For example, some people might want sticks and rocks of every kind, but some people might not.

What are you going to do in this case?

 

If the modmaker chooses one option, it'll leave people who voted for the other option not-so-happy.

If there is a config option for it, people who don't find it will complain, and people who do know will probably find something else to complain about as well.

If you make something like, there are every sticks and stones for every type, but they can be crafted into a universal sticks and stones, that might work, but really?

 

I think no matter what you do, you will get people saying 'you didn't listen to us' and complaining.

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Starting the game from scratch, like having the developers redo everything? That's asking for a little too much. It'd be better if maybe the developers would fill us in with what's going on with the mod and allow us to voice our opinion a bit more. We need some sort of democratic system, a place where we can vote on ideas and watch them rise or fall. A minecraft fan based community does this through reddit, though it really isn't managed properly. In there I've see suggestions that have been implemented and still haven't been taken down for years. You don't make suggestions to get recognition, you do it to have your gaming experience improved. I do like how the devs asked us about the torch changes though, that is definitely a plus.

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If such a project really worked, our real world would be quite a different place to live in, I guess ...

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This would also take a ludicrously long time, even if you could get the community to consistently agree on each element.

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Well, first of all, I would not ask bioxx or dunk to rewrite the game, I would say that the community could do it, and we have access to the existing code too. There is a lot of people who contributed on bugfix,(or made addon) and I am sure many could code new features but they don't as it's not their mod.

 

Second, the goal would not be to make everybody happy all the time, but to answer the desire of the majority. If a decision is taken, there would not be hundreds of configs to tweak every simple aspect. Also, I never said that a decision would have to voted in unanimity, nothing would happen then.

 

Of course, before a vote, you let people talk and argue, and before the vote, you make a reminder of the arguments for/against, pro/con, (say it like you want), then let people vote. The idea is that you can not always win, maybe your next idea will be accepted.

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None of that would work, you need a team that can make decisions according to specific goals. There is no lack of that in TFC, the issue we have right now is that devs have decided to alienate a whole bunch of players that had no problem playing the previous versions.

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Ever heard of Katawa Shoujo? It was supposed to a visual novel made by community of 4chan pretty much the same way. Fast forward 3 years, almost nothing was done. Then a small team came to the project, started to work on it, and they were done in 2 years. So yeah, such undertaking is going to fail miserably becouse humans don't mix well with each other, and the reasons stated above.

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I'm happy with the way TFC is managed and progressing. I couldn't do it better. If I were a dev, i would first and foremost work on my ideas rather than only take ideas from others. Maybe some people would like to see the road map of TFC with milestones. I wouldn't mind more transparency but i'm not asking for it either.

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I never thought that my idea would be received that coldly.

 

Of course I love TFC, but I think that there is things that are in the core of TFC that could be changed and make TFC even better. For example, to increase game compatibility, I would suggest to have a Vanilla based HP so mod mob could be a chalenge to kill with TFC weapons. I would propose to remove the size and weight tooltip (so the difference between TFC and non-TFC items would not be so big) but I would keep custom stack size and storage limitations. I would also propose to introduce a TFC version of obsidian so we can use it in oredict to craft items from other mods.

 

I also think that things that where introduced in addons are now lost because of a lack of update of these addon, for example extrafirma that bring many nice additions like the lamp or the mineral block, but if it was implemented in TFC from the start, then we would still have it.

 

Of course I am also a bit disappointed to know that we might never find any pre-generated structures in the world and even less chance to see NPC. There is other ideas like coins or the creation of an ingame currency that could be great but might never happen, and why not add trading booths, merchant booths, or a bank booth to change coins and manage currency.... What about a Salt evaporation pond... or Jam and candied fruits... What about revisiting the crop, fruit trees and bushes selection (why not remove some wildly unknown berries and add something like grape or non-north american berries, like Goji berry...)

 

Maybe I should be the only one to blame as I have no knowledge of programming and that my ideas would have to be coded by other people.

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The mod belongs to the developers. I appreciate them sharing it with me for free. Public suggestions are made, and sometimes they are accepted into the mod; often times they are not because they do not fit into the vision of the mod owners. I feel it is working well.

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I certainly understand the feeling that a mod does not do exactly what you want for your play style. I'm a co-founder of a modded server which developed and tweaked a pack that gave a much harder tech progression. We made full use of provided configs, requested new ones, used a bunch of mods to change things (MineTweaker and CustomOreGen were key) and we used Bukkit plugins to tweak other parts. I also got to deal with players who did not like some of our decisions and the joys of that.

Building a custom pack is also possible to do with TFC to change the experience. TFC is very unique compared to a lot of other mods, but the ability exists to make add-ons for TFC that expand or tweak existing mechanics.

Building a pack or authoring some add-ons seems a more practical goal. But by all means start a GitHub and see what you can do. I'd suggest that recruiting on or co-oping this forum is not kosher though and will likely be met with hostility. It will be at the very least a learning experience for you.

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But by all means start a GitHub and see what you can do. I'd suggest that recruiting on or co-oping this forum is not kosher though and will likely be met with hostility. It will be at the very least a learning experience for you.

 

Yes, I could start a GitHub repo... that would be empty until someone can code anything... as I can't. Or else it would probably already be done!

If any coder want to join and try it! That would be more than entertaining I am sure!

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well, does that a bit discouraging for bioxx, kitty and dunk?? :huh:

Speculating here on a parallel version of TFC....

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Yes that was clear from the OP. My point was that if it was as simple as you present it then go ahead and do it. I even presented alternative pathes you could take to start to bring your vision to reality that requires no coding experience. The first lesson you'd likely learn is that it is harder than you think. Hopefully for community you and collaborators would continue to learn and we'd gain more add-ons for TFC. It is clear that you and your ILK love TFC and care about it's future, so I see value in using this energy to improve the add-on landscape. I think the way TFC is being developed is great and wouldn't want that to change.

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I never thought that my idea would be received that coldly.

 

Of course I love TFC, but I think that there is things that are in the core of TFC that could be changed and make TFC even better. For example, to increase game compatibility, I would suggest to have a Vanilla based HP so mod mob could be a chalenge to kill with TFC weapons. I would propose to remove the size and weight tooltip (so the difference between TFC and non-TFC items would not be so big) but I would keep custom stack size and storage limitations. I would also propose to introduce a TFC version of obsidian so we can use it in oredict to craft items from other mods.

 

I also think that things that where introduced in addons are now lost because of a lack of update of these addon, for example extrafirma that bring many nice additions like the lamp or the mineral block, but if it was implemented in TFC from the start, then we would still have it.

 

Of course I am also a bit disappointed to know that we might never find any pre-generated structures in the world and even less chance to see NPC. There is other ideas like coins or the creation of an ingame currency that could be great but might never happen, and why not add trading booths, merchant booths, or a bank booth to change coins and manage currency.... What about a Salt evaporation pond... or Jam and candied fruits... What about revisiting the crop, fruit trees and bushes selection (why not remove some wildly unknown berries and add something like grape or non-north american berries, like Goji berry...)

 

Maybe I should be the only one to blame as I have no knowledge of programming and that my ideas would have to be coded by other people.

This may possibly sound like a dick-ish thing for me to say, but I don;t mean it like that. I would highly recommend that you learn to code. Java in particular is a fairly easy language to learn and can be used to accomplish quite a bit for such a high level language. The best part about it is that if you have something you don't like about it, you can tweak it until it fits your preferences. That's more or less the point of mods in the first place. Who knows, you might even make something a lot of people like and might start a community of your own.

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I think the main issue here is that you have one group of people, the people who know how to code, and the players, who want their ideas implimented.

 

The developers of TFC work on things that they think will make the mod better, that the WANT to add. There are plenty of suggestions on the forums that receive plenty of support from the community, but don't get added. Why? Making a suggestion isn't so much about presenting your idea to the community as it is about presenting the idea to the developers.

 

Say that you start a thread about getting salt from salt water. As I recall, that one was poretty popular with the player, but it got shot down. The developers didn't want to do it (For balance reasons). I'm sure there have been plenty threads about harvesting ice, that have gotten support, as well. But why should I, as a developer, make an addition to this community project if I don't want it in the game? There's nobody going around making addons for every idea that becomes popular on the forums, and for a very good reason. Nobody is going to spend their time planning, coding, and debugging features that they have no interest in. As a player who isn't planning/able to made addons yourself, your only avenue of getting things added to the game, vanilla TFC or not, is to catch the eye of somebody who could take the time to make that addon.

 

At the end of the day, if the community votes to have gold coins, and none of the developers like the idea, it's never going to get implimented. At least, not unless you start paying people, then you might see it happen.

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Implementing all the community ideas is a terrible idea, primarily because of this reason:

 

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."

Bill Cosby
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Implementing all the community ideas is a terrible idea, primarily because of this reason:

 

That's not my intention. Maybe please more people, but not all and not at all cost.

 

I only have the impression that some idea are refused based on a logic that I don't understang

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  Problem there is a difference between vocal majority and true majority. Majority of players is silent, and only a few "active players" will discuss everything on forum. Usually vocal majority will complain about something, and you can't please them.

  For example now in tfc there's 2 opinions: "tfc is too hard" and "tfc is too easy". Make one of them happy, and others will complain about it. Happy guys will play a game and be silent, unhappy guys will make angry posts, polls, etc. And it's only one example. There's a ton of opinions, and vocal majority will always complain. And sadly we couldn't know what true majority thinks about it, cuz they're playing a game and not read forums if patch not rustle THEIR jimmies.

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There's no vocal or silent majority, those are just excuses. There are good and bad design choices, that's all.

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