Things you think should be added to agriculture.

[Scooterdanny 285]

And now Word meanings with EternalUndeath XD

but yeah, the ideas for smoking and salting are not mine go look back a few pages, and there were some rather great ideas on how to do this, underground storage, iceboxes, smoking, salting, drying, Barrels, mostly came from JD by the way, so bravo for him.

[abculatter_2 21]

Everything suggested in this thread, adapted to fit in Minecraft.

[Scooterdanny 285]

Abculatter_2, Okay, i wish you had given the points but i will summarize it over a day or two, i encourage you all to at least take a peek at the spoiler below, and perhaps that link.

*Ecological Diversity and Underground Ecology: Basically varieties of plants dependant on the biome type. So one could have papayas in warm areas, and raspberries in colder, also includes underground variants, like mushrooms. This also covers having the plants being quite different in their growing patterns, but also their attributes, like growth speed, hardiness, and nutrition.

Urine and Feces (or more specifically, decomposition and rot): So basically, in this one, fertilizer is covered, as well as bathroom needs (i disagree with that part, for MC at least)

Forestry, Wild Soil, Soil Erosion, and Ecological Damage: this part covers wild soil, so if you farm on wild soil, some wild plants may spring up, and also being able to R*** the earth, maybe Crop rotation required. also desertification by destroying the grazing animals. Soil erosion too, but no.

NPK soil nutrients : basic soil chemicals like nitrates and similar chemicals. I suppose this is Feasible. also they affect plant growth. (obviously)

Water Management: This covers things like controlled flooding, and true irrigation for keeping your plants and soil hydrated, i am in favor of this one actually.

Floodplains, which have high nutrient content do to the erosion, and conversly areas near rivers may be lower in nutrients due to them being swept away, and leeched from the soil. Maybe on this one.

Magma Flooding: this one states that you could kill all plants in the area, and return their nutrients to the soil, an interesting concept, but currently not much availability of lava near soil in MC.

Salinity: Basically adding a salt level to water, that would affect drinking quality, as well as what plants could live there. (Ie no plants in the dead sea)

Weather : includes natural disasters as well as regular weather, so Volcanoes, could erupt causing ash to go everywhere, ( i think they are in 1.3?) and block out the sun for extended periods of time. as well as casuing a massive shift in soil PH due to the ash. (Me likey) Also droughts and rainy seasons, also liking this one.

This is the first of it looks like a few from this page, they so far are quite interesting.

Also, Welcome the the forums Abculatter!

[abculatter_2 21]

Yeah, sorry, I should've added bullet points, but it just felt like there was more 'oomf' to the post if it was simple, short, and sweet. ;P

And that would be awesome if you could do it, but I'm bored at the moment, so I'll go ahead and summarize a few things in an edit to this post...

Actually... on second thought, I think I should just start discussing it...

And thanks, this is an awesome mod, and after noticing that it had a forum I knew I just HAD to join and start throwing in my ideas. Particularly this one.

From what I remember, this suggestion has at its core a simple system of soil nutrients, summarized as just the major ones, which are NPK, as well as biomass, pH, and water, which are stored in a summarized way in the larger sections of the map. These are used, combined with some other systems, such as climate, pollution, pests, weeds, etc. to affect the growth and health of any plants grown in that particular area. This is pretty much the gist of it, but the potential this system has is enormous, and provides a huge potential for adding a lot of extremely interesting dynamics to the game.

For example, I'll go ahead and tackle easily the most controversial suggestion made: Excrement.

Now, at first, I agree that it wouldn't be all that great to have to take your character out to poop after every meal... However, when a player eats something, it would make logical sense that, under this system, that food should represent a certain amount of resources, which have been taken out of the soil. So how else will a player put those resources back into the soil?

I suppose another fine way to handle this, would be to make the food return its nutrients in some other system of 'waste'; for example, removing the hay from wheat would allow you to throw that hay back onto the soil, or allow you to feed that hay to cows, which then provide manure. (I see nothing wrong with animals producing excrement in this game) Or, eating an apple will leave an apple core, which is a rottable item which maintains the same resources as the original apple, for example.

[Scooterdanny 285]

Well, so far, you've impressed me, i'll finish adding these tomorrow after work, but i would definitely like to see some of these implemented. Please continue adding your suggestions, but remember to look (and search with the search bar) to make sure it isn't a duplicate.

[abculatter_2 21]

Well, so far, you've impressed me, i'll finish adding these tomorrow after work, but i would definitely like to see some of these implemented. Please continue adding your suggestions, but remember to look (and search with the search bar) to make sure it isn't a duplicate.

Thanks. :3 Also, added my edit, which kinda turned out differently then I originally planned, but I think will lead mroe towards discussion then simply discribing and bullet points.

And I will make sure to do so... I plan on not making a thread for awhile, and instead just hijackig threads at first, so I get a feel for what has and has not been suggested before.

EDIT: Also, another interesting thing which this system might be linked to (or can be a system in and of itself) is a system of player health and nutrition. A person can't live very healthily off nothing but steak, eggs, and bread, so adding a way to simulate nutrition (while also making very sure not to make the system TOO overbearing) might add an interesting element to the game.

The specifics of such a system, however, would certainly deserve its own topic and discussion...

[cevkiv 156]

Regarding the bread suggestions:

Of course, we need some sort of a bread-making GUI, like smithing.

The better you do at cooking minigames, like making dough, the more "durability" the bread would have.

Then, when baking, it'll, at some point, start to lose "durability", and eventually burn to a piece of coal.

I used to be a doughmaker at a pizza place. I would easily make something like 600 pounds of dough a week, sometimes more. This is what it involved:

Fill a pitcher full of ice and add water. Toss it into a mix. Do this twice. Add yeast (amount varying based on temperature and weather. Yes, weather). Add some sourdough culture. Add two cups of sugar and two cups of oil. Let mix until ice melts. Add seven scoops of flour (very precise, eh?) Then, quickly add one to two cups of salt. Then you have about thirty seconds to determine if you got the amount of dough right, and if not, whether to add more flour or more water. Too much water and the dough is sticky. Too much flour and instead of a big clump you get lots of little ones. Let it mix until it gets to a good consistency, and then take it out, cut it into portions, put it in bags, and put it in the walk-in refrigerator until needed. Every morning we would take a tray or two of dough out of the walk-in, and let it warm up on top of the ovens. Over the hour or so it took us to get all the food prepped, the heat would have caused the dough to rise sufficiently.

We kept a bucket full of sourdough to use as a culture for the regular dough (and when we were hungry and it was slow we'd make ourselves loaves of sourdough and eat it with oil and vinegar and wine). You'd use up about a cup of sourdough for each batch of dough. When you get low on sourdough, you pull what's in there out, leaving the juices in the bucket, cut the sourdough up, cut up some fresh down, mix it together, and throw it back in the bucket and let the bucket sit out (with the lid on) next to the ovens to rise. Every couple of hours you go and stab the fuck out of the sourdough to stop it from rising out of the bucket.

I approve of the idea of a bread-making minigame. Making good bread consistently is very difficult and requires a great deal of practice to do so. Not only do you have to have a good understanding of what ingredients to add, but when to add them, how much of them to add in relation to each other, how long to let it mix, and how long to let it rise, but making a loaf of bread isn't as simple as tossing a ball of dough in the oven. You have to shape that shit, and, depending on what you're making and how fancy you want it to look, do other things to it, like cutting it. Furthermore, you don't just shove dough into an oven (at least we didn't. Our ovens were stone slab over natural gas burners). You have to spread some form of grit, like semonila, to avoid the stuff sticking. And even then you have to take a peal and work it under the stuff every now and then just to make sure it doesn't stick.

To make dough, you would need

Salt

Flour

Oil

Water

Sugar

Yeast

Which means you would need

Rock Salt to make table salt

A grindstone, to grind wheat into flour

A press, to get oil from olives

A bucket of water

Sugarcane, to get sugar

And some way to get yeast, otherwise you're making unleavened bread.

So "real" breadmaking would require salt mines, olive trees, two new kinds of blocks (grindstone and olive press), and a new type of resources, yeast.

[Scooterdanny 285]

I would go look at the beginning of this thread, as it mentions nutrition already.

and quite detailed Cevkiv, i like it. and hold on, oil isn't needed for basic bread, and unleavened bread is also feasible.so yeast isn't needed either (as noted), nor the sugar in that case. but, it is more like crackers like that, but it would be something yeah? and oil can come from a vareity of sources, including animals, rapeseed, soybean, and just about every plant... but yes, traditional bread would require most of what you said.

Edited 13 Aug 2012 by Scooterdanny

[cevkiv 156]

I would go look at the beginning of this thread, as it mentions nutrition already.

and quite detailed Cevkiv, i like it. and hold on, oil isn't needed for basic bread, and unleavened bread is also feasible.so yeast isn't needed either (as noted), nor the sugar in that case. but, it is more like crackers like that, but it would be something yeah? and oil can come from a vareity of sources, including animals, rapeseed, soybean, and just about every plant... but yes, traditional bread would require most of what you said.

I was working with things that were already in the game. The bread that one makes with three wheat is quite clearly leavened. And since olives are already in the mod, they would be an easy source of oil.

[abculatter_2 21]

You really don't need oil or sugar for bread, and even salt is ultimately optional. All it does is add taste and slow the processes of the yeast, allowing other processes going on (enzymes breaking down the starches into simpler starches and sugars, bacteria creating acids, alcohols, and other flavor compounds, etc.) to get their work done.

The only absolutely necessary components of bread are flour, water, and yeast. And even the yeast can be taken out, for an unleavened bread.

EDIT: Ninja'd

EDIT2: Also, another interesting use of flour, which is extremely easy, if a bit time-consuming to make is pasta. Its only required ingredients are flour and eggs. (and the eggs can be replaced by water or other liquids) Though, you will need a rolling pin, or something else to thin it out with...

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

you can't crush rock salt and get table salt, in most cases.

The most common type of rock salt, aka 'road salt', is calcium magnesium chloride, which is mildly poisonous

table salt is sodium chloride, a different chemical altogether.

[psychotimo 5]

I used to be a doughmaker at a pizza place. I would easily make something like 600 pounds of dough a week, sometimes more. This is what it involved:

Fill a pitcher full of ice and add water. Toss it into a mix. Do this twice. Add yeast (amount varying based on temperature and weather. Yes, weather). Add some sourdough culture. Add two cups of sugar and two cups of oil. Let mix until ice melts. Add seven scoops of flour (very precise, eh?) Then, quickly add one to two cups of salt. Then you have about thirty seconds to determine if you got the amount of dough right, and if not, whether to add more flour or more water. Too much water and the dough is sticky. Too much flour and instead of a big clump you get lots of little ones. Let it mix until it gets to a good consistency, and then take it out, cut it into portions, put it in bags, and put it in the walk-in refrigerator until needed. Every morning we would take a tray or two of dough out of the walk-in, and let it warm up on top of the ovens. Over the hour or so it took us to get all the food prepped, the heat would have caused the dough to rise sufficiently.

We kept a bucket full of sourdough to use as a culture for the regular dough (and when we were hungry and it was slow we'd make ourselves loaves of sourdough and eat it with oil and vinegar and wine). You'd use up about a cup of sourdough for each batch of dough. When you get low on sourdough, you pull what's in there out, leaving the juices in the bucket, cut the sourdough up, cut up some fresh down, mix it together, and throw it back in the bucket and let the bucket sit out (with the lid on) next to the ovens to rise. Every couple of hours you go and stab the fuck out of the sourdough to stop it from rising out of the bucket.

I approve of the idea of a bread-making minigame. Making good bread consistently is very difficult and requires a great deal of practice to do so. Not only do you have to have a good understanding of what ingredients to add, but when to add them, how much of them to add in relation to each other, how long to let it mix, and how long to let it rise, but making a loaf of bread isn't as simple as tossing a ball of dough in the oven. You have to shape that shit, and, depending on what you're making and how fancy you want it to look, do other things to it, like cutting it. Furthermore, you don't just shove dough into an oven (at least we didn't. Our ovens were stone slab over natural gas burners). You have to spread some form of grit, like semonila, to avoid the stuff sticking. And even then you have to take a peal and work it under the stuff every now and then just to make sure it doesn't stick.

To make dough, you would need

Salt

Flour

Oil

Water

Sugar

Yeast

Which means you would need

Rock Salt to make table salt

A grindstone, to grind wheat into flour

A press, to get oil from olives

A bucket of water

Sugarcane, to get sugar

And some way to get yeast, otherwise you're making unleavened bread.

So "real" breadmaking would require salt mines, olive trees, two new kinds of blocks (grindstone and olive press), and a new type of resources, yeast.

as other peeps have already said, bread can be made without the oil, salt and sugar. oil--> already have olive trees if i'm correct, but they're not that reliable, salt... well rocksalt is indeed a bad idea, the way they used to get salt in the roman empire was by making ponds of seawater and waiting till they dried it's an easy system that could be used (in which case we'd need an evaporation system, maybe make water only evaporate when it's being heated? and MC would need 2 types of water, salt seawater and regular river/lake-water )

the yeast on the other hand could be a problem, yeast are micro-organisms, so they'd need to be fed and you need to give them an optimal environment to procreate, then after a while you can take some of the organisms and drop them in the bread. meaning: you need a way to scout out these micro-organisms, put them in a mixture to procreate (water and sugar?) and then be able to take only part of them to mix with your dough.

seems like an awful lot of work just for a few loafs of bread.

i'm more worried about other things though, after all, bread and eggs are kind off the only steady food income that peeps have, making it harder to make bread would also make the game a lot harder (chickens can be scarce in some biomes).

maybe when some sort of technology get's mixed in we could get more types of bread? first one being 'rough flour' and water to make a primitive loaf of bread, and later you could use grindstones to make ground flour instead of rough flour and add in sugar etc, each addition could just make the quality of the bread better. problem being that i don't think i'd go through the trouble of finding salt and olive oil for an extra 'half part of hunger', sugar is easy to get so i'd just mix in sugar cause it's easy to get. a lot of other peeps might have the same opinion. i mean if you have other things to focus on (like getting tools) who would bother digging a hole to evaporate water for salt? and yeast, well being a micro-organism it'd be a pain to maintain it, keeping it alive, trying not to stimulate them too much when you don't need them (stimulating them--> more yeast--> food will be gone faster--> very frequent replenishing of food or dead yeast, well yeast doesn't die easily, but still... ) so yeast might be a lot harder to implement since it will need a whole system implemented with it so you can nurture and use your yeast :S

if we get different types of bread, this could be a good idea, otherwise... nope not too fond of it, until you gather up some chickens and start a farm it's hard enough to get food as it is (yhyh massive amounts of food drop when killing animals in the latest builds but killing random animals still doesn't provide you with a renewable food source) making bread a pain in the ass to make would just make it even harder, many peeps will die from starvation if they spawn in biomes with few animals ( extreme hills,...)

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

you can't crush rock salt and get table salt, in most cases.

The most common type of rock salt, aka 'road salt', is calcium chloride, which is mildly poisonous

table salt is sodium chloride, a different chemical altogether.

I think we're referring to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halite

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

I think we're referring to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halite

Ah ok.

Also I am made of derp, I didn't mean calcium chloride, I meant magnesium chloride

wrong group 2 metal lol

Is Halite, then, the official 'rock salt' of TFC?

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

Ah ok.

Also I am made of derp, I didn't mean calcium chloride, I meant magnesium chloride

wrong group 2 metal lol

Is Halite, then, the official 'rock salt' of TFC?

yeah, pretty much. It's the only type of rock salt that could be conceivably useful. Melting ice can be done with a torch lol.

[cevkiv 156]

Yeah, I have a chunk of halite in my rock collection somewhere. It's delicious. And pinkish.

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

Yeah, sorry, I should've added bullet points, but it just felt like there was more 'oomf' to the post if it was simple, short, and sweet. ;P

And that would be awesome if you could do it, but I'm bored at the moment, so I'll go ahead and summarize a few things in an edit to this post...

Actually... on second thought, I think I should just start discussing it...

And thanks, this is an awesome mod, and after noticing that it had a forum I knew I just HAD to join and start throwing in my ideas. Particularly this one.

From what I remember, this suggestion has at its core a simple system of soil nutrients, summarized as just the major ones, which are NPK, as well as biomass, pH, and water, which are stored in a summarized way in the larger sections of the map. These are used, combined with some other systems, such as climate, pollution, pests, weeds, etc. to affect the growth and health of any plants grown in that particular area. This is pretty much the gist of it, but the potential this system has is enormous, and provides a huge potential for adding a lot of extremely interesting dynamics to the game.

For example, I'll go ahead and tackle easily the most controversial suggestion made: Excrement.

Now, at first, I agree that it wouldn't be all that great to have to take your character out to poop after every meal... However, when a player eats something, it would make logical sense that, under this system, that food should represent a certain amount of resources, which have been taken out of the soil. So how else will a player put those resources back into the soil?

I suppose another fine way to handle this, would be to make the food return its nutrients in some other system of 'waste'; for example, removing the hay from wheat would allow you to throw that hay back onto the soil, or allow you to feed that hay to cows, which then provide manure. (I see nothing wrong with animals producing excrement in this game) Or, eating an apple will leave an apple core, which is a rottable item which maintains the same resources as the original apple, for example.

Welcome to the magical world of TFC! But of course with no magic.

Words of warning: do not, under any circumstances, mention religion or research. That is all.

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

I think you guys should hold off on the suggestions til it comes out. You may be surprised.

[redundantusage 330]

My thought on dough and bread and whatnot to keep things fairly simple while still expanding on the system:

Wheat can either be processed into flour by placing wheat into the crafting box and getting it, or through a millstone if such a thing is added.

A new container type, a wooden barrel, would be used for general food storage, making foods stack only up to 12 normally, but higher while in the barrel. If flour is placed in the barrel and water poured in using a bucket (right clicking on the top with a full water bucket) the flour and water begin to mix and after a set amount of time, dough can be removed from the barrel. The dough items can then be baked in a firepit or forge.

Optional: An oven construction could be made by making a firepit in a stone alcove of raw/smooth/bricked stone that has stone on all sides but the opening.

Food barrels crafted from wooden planks in this form:

0 . 0

0 . 0

0 0 0

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

My thought on dough and bread and whatnot to keep things fairly simple while still expanding on the system:

Wheat can either be processed into flour by placing wheat into the crafting box and getting it, or through a millstone if such a thing is added.

A new container type, a wooden barrel, would be used for general food storage, making foods stack only up to 12 normally, but higher while in the barrel. If flour is placed in the barrel and water poured in using a bucket (right clicking on the top with a full water bucket) the flour and water begin to mix and after a set amount of time, dough can be removed from the barrel. The dough items can then be baked in a firepit or forge.

Optional: An oven construction could be made by making a firepit in a stone alcove of raw/smooth/bricked stone that has stone on all sides but the opening.

Food barrels crafted from wooden planks in this form:

0 . 0

0 . 0

0 0 0

we have some ideas for food storage devices. Again, please wait a bit. The agriculture should be out soon. No use making all these suggestions to find us already using your idea or doing something completely different.

[Ulfengaard 44]

The agriculture should be out soon.

I hate and love that word at the same time... *wipes away drool*

[Azdoine 218]

The agriculture should be out soon.

This is going to be 'fun', isn't it.

[redundantusage 330]

I usually make suggestions with the knowledge that they won't be used, but if nothing else might inspire creativity in the devs or other players. That said, I'm actually looking forward to how much you guys will break vanilla food systems and thus make food a challenge finally.

[cevkiv 156]

This is going to be 'fun', isn't it.

I hate fun. Fun killed my sister.

[Jed1314 420]

I hate fun. Fun killed my sister.

Fun killed all of my dwarfs and left me with a ruined and empty fortress.

If your sister actually died, I sincerely apologise for making a joke :S