Regarding the 'The problem of Cassiterite' poll

[RogueHydra 32]

That's exactly how I see it to be honest.

[Michidez 9]

The problem with that is you have to find Borax, which on the wiki has no hints on where to find it. I personally have not seen it before and I've been playing since Beta v1j

I've been thinking that maybe the problem isn't tin itself, it's the community's focus on tin being the only option for advancement on multiple levels. In the back of everyone's mind they realize there are other options, but tin is the most frequently spoken of.

So after doing my research I would like to ask the community a few questions.

1) If your problem with tin is that you can't make a chisel to progress to the bloomery, did you know you can use Bismuth and Zinc (Bismuthite and Sphalerite) for tools on the same level as tin?

2) If your problem with tin is that you can't progress beyond copper because you can't make bronze without tin, did you know you can make Rose Gold, Black Bronze, or Bismuth Bronze, and their respective anvil types function -exactly- the same as the regular Bronze?

After digging around I feel like for question 1, people are just hearing everyone else say "get tin, it's in granite" and assuming it is the only thing you can do.

For question 2, people are relying heavily on the wiki, which doesn't even say those types of anvils exist.

After discovering this (and I'm not trying to be arrogant about this as I was actually part of the question 2 group a short while ago), I'm personally beginning to think Cassiterite and tin don't need to be altered as desperately as people are clamoring for it. I think the information about alternatives may first just need to be spread among the masses and actually applied in practice.

Atho the truth is that 99% of the base metals (zinc,bismuth,tin) spawn in granite. So hunting for granite sometimes get me annoyed.

[valkupo 17]

Atho the truth is that 99% of the base metals (zinc,bismuth,tin) spawn in granite. So hunting for granite sometimes get me annoyed.

Sphalerite/Zinc does not spawn in Granite, it shows up in all of the metamorphic rocks (Gneiss, Marble, Phyllite, Quartzite, Schist, and Slate). That provides you with 6 rock types in addition to Granite to search for to begin with.

[Michidez 9]

Sphalerite/Zinc does not spawn in Granite, it shows up in all of the metamorphic rocks (Gneiss, Marble, Phyllite, Quartzite, Schist, and Slate). That provides you with 6 rock types in addition to Granite to search for to begin with.

Creeeeepy, I have once found Sphalerite and Cass blended together in Granite... Must have changed since then.

[valkupo 17]

Creeeeepy, I have once found Sphalerite and Cass blended together in Granite... Must have changed since then.

To be honest, I actually believe you. The information on Sphalerite being in metamorphic rocks I put up was from the wiki, more or less right after I pointed out a problem with people using the wiki too heavily.

If I facepalm for something I did myself, does that mean I need to use both hands or just hit harder?

Anyways, I respect Bioxx's way of not making everything you can do detailed out in a specific way. It would take some of the fun out of the mod if I knew how to do every last little thing at optimum efficiency. It would be nice if the starter stuff would be detailed out clearly, but I think a lot of people who are best suited for that are afraid to put anything down because of the frequently changing status that is beta. That causes problems for people who are just coming in, as their questions have outdated answers, so they want better info. Oh crap, it's circular.

The only way to counter it would be having a set plan of information release. The wiki actually says the current version is Beta v1j Hotfix 2. How about instead of trying to keep the wiki up to date on the constantly changing pre-releases, every time an "official" update (such as the inevitable Beta v2) comes out the wiki is conformed to that exact version? Then add some disclaimers to the download page, changelog page, and wiki stating that if you use pre-releases the information may not be 100% accurate.

Back on topic, all of this means we may actually need a new early metal source after all. It depends on whether information is correct or not. All I know now is that my brain really hurts. Circular problems make me cradle my head in pain.

[Michidez 9]

If I facepalm for something I did myself, does that mean I need to use both hands or just hit harder?

ROFL

[Brodiggan 77]

Just wanted to add my two cents to the discussion, as there is something I haven't seen discussed yet that I think might offer a better solution to the cassiterite/granite problem than those being considered now... cassiterite (according to wikipedia) often accumulates in placer deposits, and these deposits were one of the more likely sources for early tin.

Depending on what the plan is with panning in the future, it seems like adding a chance that river biome dirt would be replaced by alluvial tin, iron sands, and such (in the same way dirt is replaced by clay in several other instances already) could be used to make finding tin much less of an issue without resorting to some new fantasy metal or adding tin deposits to the wrong sort of rock. These alluvial deposit blocks could then be dug up and melted down, or extracted by panning, if expanding panning is also on the table. As long as these alluvial deposits were small enough (or extracting the tin was time consuming enough), finding granite (and the larger deposits of tin therein) would still be a nice bonus, but would no longer be a flat requirement to make any progress.

[CreepyCreeps100 5]

there are no silver tools in the game either.

i didnt say that there where silver tools in the game but it is a cool idea for silver other than to make alloys.

[sum1 0]

Just like to say that the idea proposed by Brodiggan, is in my opinion really rather good. By making tin relatively common but time consuming to extract in usable amounts it removes the sense of hopelessnes that many people feel when for hours on end they run around with their pro pick and get nothing but "nothing of interest". It would give people a choice between a bit of work to acheive an acceptable goal or trying to luck out and hit the motherload. More options whilst still a challenge is ideal.

[Crysyn 179]

Just like to say that the idea proposed by Brodiggan, is in my opinion really rather good. By making tin relatively common but time consuming to extract in usable amounts it removes the sense of hopelessnes that many people feel when for hours on end they run around with their pro pick and get nothing but "nothing of interest". It would give people a choice between a bit of work to acheive an acceptable goal or trying to luck out and hit the motherload. More options whilst still a challenge is ideal.

Tin is a gateway/bottleneck metal, nothing more. We do not need it every where we just need that initial piece less important Literally, most of this is over getting the initial hammer to make flux. The second requirement is for an anvil and with Bronze, Black Bronze (My fav) and Rose Gold as all possible avenues, tin is just 1/3rd of the spectrum.. Long Live Gabbro! (Which we found two layers down only 500ish blocks away )

[Brodiggan 77]

Tin is a gateway/bottleneck metal, nothing more. We do not need it every where we just need that initial piece less important.

I think that's what Sum1 was talking about (and definitely what I was talking about). By adding a time consuming, labor intensive, but non-stone specific source of tin you make getting that initial bar or two of tin much more doable without really affecting the balance of anything else.

If I was suggesting that river bottoms just be replaced with raw cassiterite ore, that would be a bit silly, but I'm not. I'm talking about adding a "tin sands" dirt type that replaces some blocks in river biomes the way clay replaces dirt elsewhere. As long as turning those tin sands into tin is time consuming enough (something along the lines of having to melt 8 or 12 down in a campfire to get one bar of tin, or having to pan using those tin sands for quite a while to get enough tin 'droplets' to make a bar) then I don't see the issue... it's just a way to get past that initial bottleneck (and adds some additional realism to the game... which seems like it would fit nicely with everything else).

EDIT: On a side note, I'm not sure holding up rose gold and black bronze as alternatives to tin is all that great of a suggestion... making an anvil of either requires a lot of gold and/or silver, both of which can be even harder to find than tin (at least in my experience).

[valkupo 17]

Just wanted to add my two cents to the discussion, as there is something I haven't seen discussed yet that I think might offer a better solution to the cassiterite/granite problem than those being considered now... cassiterite (according to wikipedia) often accumulates in placer deposits, and these deposits were one of the more likely sources for early tin.

Depending on what the plan is with panning in the future, it seems like adding a chance that river biome dirt would be replaced by alluvial tin, iron sands, and such (in the same way dirt is replaced by clay in several other instances already) could be used to make finding tin much less of an issue without resorting to some new fantasy metal or adding tin deposits to the wrong sort of rock. These alluvial deposit blocks could then be dug up and melted down, or extracted by panning, if expanding panning is also on the table. As long as these alluvial deposits were small enough (or extracting the tin was time consuming enough), finding granite (and the larger deposits of tin therein) would still be a nice bonus, but would no longer be a flat requirement to make any progress.

Agreed, as long as it is as you say, time consuming enough. If that's still too easy for some people to accept, it could also be made resource intensive. Like for instance, each little scrap needs to be heated and melted down into a Ceramic Mold (and if you're using a firepit, that means one at a time), and probably would be a hardly visible change to how much of a bar was filled. Imagine the cost of trees if you aren't lucky enough to find a good stash of peat.

Tin is a gateway/bottleneck metal, nothing more. We do not need it every where we just need that initial piece less important Literally, most of this is over getting the initial hammer to make flux. The second requirement is for an anvil and with Bronze, Black Bronze (My fav) and Rose Gold as all possible avenues, tin is just 1/3rd of the spectrum.. Long Live Gabbro! (Which we found two layers down only 500ish blocks away )

You say that, but I haven't had problems getting flux, nor seen anyone else. If someone found enough tin/zinc/bismuth to make a chisel, they probably have just enough left over to make a hammer as well. They should be fine progressing to copper anvils if they choose their tool upgrades wisely. Also, 100% agreement on awesome-factor of Black Bronze. The only way it could be cooler is if you could use bone handles (probably degraded uses, but it's a luxury idea really), as the contrast would be amazing.

EDIT: On a side note, I'm not sure holding up rose gold and black bronze as alternatives to tin is all that great of a suggestion... making an anvil of either requires a lot of gold and/or silver, both of which can be even harder to find than tin (at least in my experience).

He meant Rose Gold and Black Bronze being alternatives to regular Bronze, which is an alloy that requires tin.

[Brodiggan 77]

He meant Rose Gold and Black Bronze being alternatives to regular Bronze, which is an alloy that requires tin.

Yeah, I got that, I was just saying they seem like lackluster alternatives to bronze considering the difficulty of finding enough silver/gold to make an anvil... but if others haven't had as hard a time with that as I have, I guess I may just have been somewhat unlucky in my searches for gold and silver (and lucky in my searches for tin).

[TheGuardian 0]

Arg...lost my first reply to this, but will repost.

I feel that gold/silver tools are realisticly pointless. If looked at historicially, although those metals are very easy to work with, their major drawback is that they are simply to ductile (soft) to make any practical tools out of them. Their use was restricted to jewelry, art, drinking/liquid containers (I think the Romans would line the inside of their canteens with silver to keep the water safe to drink, silver inhibits microorganisms). As pointed out, not only did early cultures resort moslty to stone tools to do a majority of their quarrying, the use of fire and water to split rocks, and sand and string to slice through rocks were still the main tools, recerving the copper tools for the finer work.

Perhaps an eventual use for gold and silver for armor and weapons would be for making special magical items for use against specific types of mobs; silver alloys for weapons versus undead, gold for fighting mobs from the Nether (ghasts, ghosts, demons?). Or perhaps simply plating your steel armors for similar reason. Normal Gold armor/weapons were usually only status symbols for kings and/or royalty, not meant for real usage in combat.

[White Owl 0]

Here's a thought. Don't change the ores; change the spawn.

Would it be possible to code the world generation so that a brand new world will always spawn the player in a biome containing cassiterite? It would still be tricky to find, but at least you'd know it's somewhere relatively close.

[Reepime 1]

To add my 2 cents to this topic, I believe that option C should be used. Even if a metal is introduced that doesn't exist (as far as we know), it is plausible that it is found. If you wish, read below for my justification.

*WARNING* *WARNING* *WARNING* SCIENTIFIC AND EDUCATION MATERIAL BELOW *WARNING* *WARNING* *WARNING*

Currently, in the natural world, it is possible for 2 substance to combine to become a new substance (whether as simple as create an alloy/glass or as complicated as nuclear fission). A recent article on Space.com (http://www.space.com/13795-natural-nuclear-reactors-planets-spark-life.html) speaks about evidence of nuclear reactions happening naturally on the earth's surface (and suggests it has or is happening on other planets in our solar system).

With this in mind and the fact the Minecraft isn't earth, it is very possible for the heat of the planet, surface lava flows, or volcanoes (I know, not currently implemented) to create the perfect conditions to cause 2 metals to smelt into a new alloy and not all metals/alloys are strong and they haven't been exploited in real life greatly, but they may have been used initially by ancient cultures as a beginning tool.

[RogueHydra 32]

Bravo buddy. I like your justification. I'm gunna vote for that ^ reasoning if Bioxx decides to make up a new ore.

[valkupo 17]

To add my 2 cents to this topic, I believe that option C should be used. Even if a metal is introduced that doesn't exist (as far as we know), it is plausible that it is found. If you wish, read below for my justification.

*WARNING* *WARNING* *WARNING* SCIENTIFIC AND EDUCATION MATERIAL BELOW *WARNING* *WARNING* *WARNING*

Currently, in the natural world, it is possible for 2 substance to combine to become a new substance (whether as simple as create an alloy/glass or as complicated as nuclear fission). A recent article on Space.com (http://www.space.com...spark-life.html) speaks about evidence of nuclear reactions happening naturally on the earth's surface (and suggests it has or is happening on other planets in our solar system).

With this in mind and the fact the Minecraft isn't earth, it is very possible for the heat of the planet, surface lava flows, or volcanoes (I know, not currently implemented) to create the perfect conditions to cause 2 metals to smelt into a new alloy and not all metals/alloys are strong and they haven't been exploited in real life greatly, but they may have been used initially by ancient cultures as a beginning tool.

Forget solution for Cassiterite, I want to see that entirely on it's own rights effecting all sorts of different ores/metals.

[xud9dab2 2]

Beta 2 pre 30 "fixed" the Cassiterite problem, if you will:

Cassiterite will now spawn in all Igneous Extrusive layers.

.

For reference, that is Andesite, Basalt, Dacite and Rhyolite. Also, Bismuthinite can now be found in Sedimentary layers, which is Chalk, Chert, Claystone, Conglomerate, Dolomite, Limestone, Mudstone, Rock Salt, Shale and Siltstone. Correct me if I missed one/got one of those wrong.

[cevkiv 156]

Sedimentary is not Igneous Extrusive...

[valkupo 17]

When he mentioned Sedimentary layers he was talking about Bismuthinite.

[CreepyCreeps100 5]

TO EVERY ONE!

Bioxx has offered many possibilities to get past tin as the following: Added new anvils that are the equivalent to bronze, added the possibility to find tin in other rock, and also asked the community what they wanted form him to do with this stupidity of a savor of an ore...

DUDES, to not rely on the wiki as it is not complete and up to date with the current version of TFC you are using!

Why do people keep thinking that cassiterite is the only meltable ore that can smelt in a firepit.

The wiki NEEDS to be updated as because people will keep relying on it and gathering negative information on the mod and pass it to other players that need help with the mod.

Written by CreepyCreeps100

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[valkupo 17]

TO EVERY ONE!

Bioxx has offered many possibilities to get past tin as the following: Added new anvils that are the equivalent to bronze, added the possibility to find tin in other rock, and also asked the community what they wanted form him to do with this stupidity of a savor of an ore...

DUDES, to not rely on the wiki as it is not complete and up to date with the current version of TFC you are using!

Why do people keep thinking that cassiterite is the only meltable ore that can smelt in a firepit.

The wiki NEEDS to be updated as because people will keep relying on it and gathering negative information on the mod and pass it to other players that need help with the mod.

Written by CreepyCreeps100

-------------------------------------

That is more or less what I said earlier in the thread, and then proved that it happens by unwittingly doing it myself 3 posts later. The resulting self reaction is now my signature.

Feel free to help edit the wiki by requesting the ability here:

http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/693-if-you-want-to-edit-the-wiki/

As it stands, I'm personally too afraid of getting information wrong to apply myself. A situation I imagine a lot of people are in.

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

That is more or less what I said earlier in the thread, and then proved that it happens by unwittingly doing it myself 3 posts later. The resulting self reaction is now my signature.

Feel free to help edit the wiki by requesting the ability here:

http://terrafirmacra...-edit-the-wiki/

As it stands, I'm personally too afraid of getting information wrong to apply myself. A situation I imagine a lot of people are in.

Once I start my TFC LP in... maybe month or two - I'm probly gonna apply for editor status. That'll make it easier for me to remember the edits that I have to make, since I'll already be explaining the mod to an audience

[CreepyCreeps100 5]

That is more or less what I said earlier in the thread, and then proved that it happens by unwittingly doing it myself 3 posts later. The resulting self reaction is now my signature.

Feel free to help edit the wiki by requesting the ability here:

http://terrafirmacra...-edit-the-wiki/

As it stands, I'm personally too afraid of getting information wrong to apply myself. A situation I imagine a lot of people are in.

Yes i know you said the same thing but some people still imply that they cannot find casseterite to claim a chisel about 20 posts after yours which means they did not read it.