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InsaneJ

Remain Cauldron compatible for Minecraft 1.7.10

35 posts in this topic

Bioxx has made it clear in his post: "News from the Front" that a Minecraft 1.8 release of TFC isn't going to happen.

TL;DR for that post: Bioxx is frustrated with what Mojang has done in Minecraft 1.8 making his live as a mod developer more difficult. As a server owner stubbornly running Cauldron and TFC without official support I can relate to that :B

 

TFC 2 for Minecraft 1.8 will at some point in the future make it's appearance. No one knows how long that is going to take. Since moving to MC 1.8 entails rewriting a lot of code, I'm assuming it's going to be a while.

 

Therefore I would like to request that TFC for MC 1.7.10 in the mean time does not break Cauldron compatibility. I'm not asking for official support for Cauldron as it has been made clear that this is not something the people behind TFC are willing to do. Please do not break compatibility by using new Forge functionality that isn't implemented in the Forge version Cauldron is stuck on.

 

Thank you for your consideration.

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Cauldron is dead. They removed all of their download links, and not even their staff offers support for it anymore. Let it die, and move on. Asking for us to stay compatible with an older version of forge is essentially asking us to not add new features, as well as not optimize existing features when the option to optimize becomes available through updated forge versions.

 

Here's just a small list of changes that forge has made since 1236 that improve gameplay:

  • Fixed the inability to click links in in-game chat.
  • Fixed Stained Glass pane rendering issues
  • Fixed a few issues with the ore dictionary, including not being able to make white stained glass using mod dyes, added sand to the ore dictionary.
  • A tiny change regarding the logic in updating worlds, creating a massive improvement in performance, especially when generating new chunks, or when a lot of block updates happen at once (like chopping sequoia trees).
  • Better hooks for when players wake up or get out of bed, allows for better functionality using custom beds.
  • Fixed a bug regarding players transferring dimensions, and the stored dimension not being updated properly.
  • Better hooks for players healing and taking damage, allows for more custom combat.
  • Better hooks for creating custom explosions.
  • Liquids render properly when players are immersed in them.

 

Older version downloads of TFC will always be available. There are players who are still using 78, and we're not stopping them. If you want to continue to use old, outdated, dead interfaces, then you have to accept that you'll have to use the old, outdated versions of the mod when it gets to the point where the latest version of TFC no longer works with Forge 1236. We aren't going to intentionally hinder progress towards new features and optimizations because users won't let dead software die.

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I have to offer my 2 cents here.

It always struck me as odd that I hear so much that TFC is geared towards multiplayer. Exactly what kind of multiplayer is that? 3 or 4 friends getting together on a forge server? This is not real multiplayer. Real multiplayer is when you have people from all around the world playing together. Something that cannot happen on a forge server.  There is just no admin tools for forge. MyTown 2 is still in alpha version and not recomended for live servers, Forge essentials is not fully updated for 1.7.10, most modules are disable.  I use Prizm in my server it keeps a log of each block placement or destruction, so everyone in the server can see who did what and a admin can revert mischief.

Do we have grieff problems? No, How much is that because we have MCBans in the server and players know if they mess up they will get banned and have a hard time joining another server?

Yes we don't have Cauldron updates anymore and it is a huge inconvenience for all real server administrators. A quick search on the servers page show me that all the big servers use Cauldron, I for once can say that I actually try to convert my sever to forge, it was a complete disaster. There was no way to administer the server, without towny there is no chunk protection, no way for people to form towns. 

Do I think Terrafirmacraft should stop in time and not release another update ever? No and no one is asking for that.

The main thing is that there is no replacement for Cauldron. And to make things worst I get the feeling like we doing something wrong for using it. Like is not approved by TFC Devs. I have yet to see a big Public server running TFC that is not using Cauldron. We do not have options, until something else comes, hopefully Sponge, we are stuck using Cauldron.

Right now the only option we have is to run a server with Cauldron or not run a server.

Just some of the TFC servers that are using Cauldron:

HappyDiggers

Rhodance

Darkagecraft

Vividcraft

NewMelinia

Terrafirmacraft Survival Russia

Tree Tech Network

LiteitUp

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@Djakuta can you compile an absolute must have list for a public server? I'm talking about a brief description, not just a name of a plugin.

I get from your post that you want:

 

- Logging of all block changes

- MCBans support (?)

 

I just came across this topic, and wanted to say that we have been working (on and off) on a logging thing for Forge.

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I certainly understand your feelings. I've been in your position and can not imagined running our server without the tools Bukkit provides. There are no alternatives.On the other side I have an understanding of the frustration the devs feel about cauldron. We were careful to test bugs to ensure that they weren't caused by cauldron, however some of our members reported things on our behalf without testing and we dealt with the fallout. Many server owners are not that courteous. Given that public servers need cauldron you can imagine the volume of false reports that are generated.Luckily Blood was aware of this and did a fantastic job bug fixing and giving support. Every interaction I had with him was positive. However now that there is no one supporting Cauldron those bugs will not be fixed. I would expect animosity towards Cauldron by devs to only increase with the increased repetitive bug reports that are not going to be solved.So this leaves server owners in a hell of a bind and honestly there is no solution in sight. FE was at best mostly useless. So I certainly wouldn't count on it. Honestly you might have better luck trying to convince the plugin devs to fork to a forge version. It would have been a waste of time previously, but more and more it is looking like 1.7.10 forge modded MC will have a much longer life than expected.

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I'm not trying to insult you guys or start a fight here. But please take a look at the following:

Posted Image

 

If you want TFC to be a multiplayer game, there is no way around Cauldron for Minecraft 1.7.10. HappyDiggers currently is the only non-whitelisted server with a serious player base. Admittedly there are a few whitelisted servers to which I don't have the IP and those aren't listed here. But I doubt they show high player numbers.

 

I'm not requesting that TFC doesn't add new features or not optimize existing features. Quite frankly I don't understand how Kitty could come to that conclusion. Older Forge does not equal that at all. The list of issues mentioned aren't game breaking. People can work around those like they are doing right now on the Cauldron servers. Also it should be noted that Optifine helps with game breaking bugs (persistent client crashes) in TFC that have been present in b78 on MC 1.6.4 and b79 on MC 1.7.10 with regard to fruit trees. Cauldron and Optifine are essentially what's keeping multiplayer TFC alive at this point. Yet they receive huge amounts of hate.

 

I've already requested for Sponge support for Minecraft 1.8 when that comes out. Which you should really give serious consideration. In the mean time all I'm asking is to please not use new Forge functions that will break on the current Cauldron. Which I don't think is unreasonable since it won't hinder TFC development at all. Essentially it's: pretend the new Forge hooks don't exist and continue with what you've already got.

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I'm not requesting that TFC doesn't add new features or not optimize existing features.

 

Essentially it's: pretend the new Forge hooks don't exist and continue with what you've already got.

 

These two statements completely contradict each other. It is entirely the new forge hooks that allow us to add a lot of cool new features that couldn't previously be added due to the lack of hooks, as well as to better optimize existing features using these new hooks so that things run better and smoother.

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HappyDiggers

Rhodance

Darkagecraft

Vividcraft

NewMelinia

Terrafirmacraft Survival Russia

Tree Tech Network

LiteitUp

Didn't notice this list before. Are you sure it's accurate? Guess that makes my huge image look kinda silly now :B

 

Point remains though.

 

 

 

These two statements completely contradict each other. It is entirely the new forge hooks that allow us to add a lot of cool new features that couldn't previously be added due to the lack of hooks, as well as to better optimize existing features using these new hooks so that things run better and smoother.

I'm sorry, I really am. I don't mean to insult you. You do a terrific job here. But that is just pure an utter nonsense. New hooks offer new possibilities. But the ones in the Forge version Cauldron uses aren't limiting TFC. They don't hold it back in any meaningful way. TFC only uses a fraction of Forge's available hooks.

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One other thing that needs to be pointed out. TFC is not the only forge-mod with this stance. In fact, anti-Cauldron is pretty much the stance of a good majority of large forge mod developers. It's even to the point where the Feed-The-Beast launcher and modpack staff explicitly state that they do not, and will not ever support Cauldron/MCPC+. http://forum.feed-the-beast.com/threads/psa-mcpc-and-modded-minecraft.37480/

 

In your cries for compatibility and cooperation, you are whining to the wrong people. If you want change, you need to either talk to the forge staff, or the sponge staff. From a mod developer's point of view, we are too far deep for us to actually make any changes.

 

Edit: To make an analogy. You are essentially complaining to a minimum-wage-earning cashier in a big-box retail store that the prices of everything are too high. There's absolutely nothing that cashier can do, and your complaining is not productive. All you did was make that cashier feel kinda like crap for constantly being complained at for something they have no power over.

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Didn't notice this list before. Are you sure it's accurate? Guess that makes my huge image look kinda silly now :B

 

Point remains though.

 

 

I'm sorry, I really am. I don't mean to insult you. You do a terrific job here. But that is just pure an utter nonsense. New hooks offer new possibilities. But the ones in the Forge version Cauldron uses aren't limiting TFC. They don't hold it back in any meaningful way. TFC only uses a fraction of Forge's available hooks.

 

Please either edit the image to properly show that there are indeed Cauldron servers that have a non-existent playerbase, or remove the image entirely because it's irrelevant.

 

We are constantly trying to improve performance and optimize mechanics while developing TFC. We are going to use the best methods available in order for that to happen. At some point or another in the future, we are going to want to add a mechanic that uses one of these new hooks, and will not be able to be added without those hooks. When that time comes, we will not decide to not implement said mechanic based solely on the fact that there are users out there still using Forge 1236. The new feature will be added, and at that point you will no longer be able to use the latest version of TFC with cauldron.

 

Edit: To make another comparison - TFC chiseling does not work for players who are still using Java 6. There were methods and hooks implemented in Java 7 that let us write the chiseling mechanic in the first place. Do you honestly think for one second that we considered not adding chiseling because it would break the game for people who refused to update beyond Java 6?

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Didn't notice this list before. Are you sure it's accurate? Guess that makes my huge image look kinda silly now :B

 

Point remains though.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I really am. I don't mean to insult you. You do a terrific job here. But that is just pure an utter nonsense. New hooks offer new possibilities. But the ones in the Forge version Cauldron uses aren't limiting TFC. They don't hold it back in any meaningful way. TFC only uses a fraction of Forge's available hooks.

Could I please ask you for the big favor of editing the post and changing the image. Even though we cannot compare ourselves with the big servers we still have the same kind of problems. we have 250 people on our whitelist, but only once we had more then 20 online at the same time. Every day we have 15 unique players in our server, loging in on different times.

We lost a huge base when I took the server offline to try the forge thing. It was a black moment on the history of the server. For 2 weeks I try everything I could think of and then went back to Cauldron, because it works.

It has bugs and problems, but it works and all we are asking is concentrate your efforts on building the new and improved TFC2 and please just do not further break the compatibility between TFC and Cauldron.

As far as I am concerned, and I believe for most of us here it would be OK for TFC to not ever release another update for 1.7.10. if that update is going to make it impossible to run the server with Cauldron. In the player mind it makes a difference if we are running the last update or not. The few bugs we have now are not game breaking.

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Edit: To make another comparison - TFC chiseling does not work for players who are still using Java 6. There were methods and hooks implemented in Java 7 that let us write the chiseling mechanic in the first place. Do you honestly think for one second that we considered not adding chiseling because it would break the game for people who refused to update beyond Java 6?

But you make it sound like we have a choice and are just to stubborn to make it. We have been telling you that we have no other option, we wish we had, honestly. I really think you should try to run an open server without Cauldron.  I am sure that hundreds of players would log into your server, but then how would you goo about administering that server?

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But you make it sound like we have a choice and are just to stubborn to make it. We have been telling you that we have no other option, we wish we had, honestly. I really think you should try to run an open server without Cauldron.  I am sure that hundreds of players would log into your server, but then how would you goo about administering that server?

 

You do have a choice. Whitelist your server. Completely public servers are not the primary source of TFC players.

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But you make it sound like we have a choice and are just to stubborn to make it. We have been telling you that we have no other option, we wish we had, honestly. I really think you should try to run an open server without Cauldron.  I am sure that hundreds of players would log into your server, but then how would you goo about administering that server?

 

As of today, the latest version of TFC still works on Forge 1236. For all you know, that may continue to be true for another 6 months, or it could change tomorrow, who knows. All Kitty seems to be saying is that they won't make any promises to stay compatible. She never said they plan to break it tomorrow either.
 
Progress is inevitable... One of these days, Forge will add a new function that will allow some long standing bug or desired mechanic to suddenly be fixed/possible. When that day comes, I hope that they take full advantage of it. Yes, it means that new version won't be an option for someone who wants to run an open server, but that's not the majority of TFC players.
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As of today, the latest version of TFC still works on Forge 1236. For all you know, that may continue to be true for another 6 months, or it could change tomorrow, who knows. All Kitty seems to be saying is that they won't make any promises to stay compatible. She never said they plan to break it tomorrow either.
 
Progress is inevitable... One of these days, Forge will add a new function that will allow some long standing bug or desired mechanic to suddenly be fixed/possible. When that day comes, I hope that they take full advantage of it. Yes, it means that new version won't be an option for someone who wants to run an open server, but that's not the majority of TFC players.

 

 

This. ^

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As far as I am concerned, and I believe for most of us here it would be OK for TFC to not ever release another update for 1.7.10. if that update is going to make it impossible to run the server with Cauldron. In the player mind it makes a difference if we are running the last update or not. The few bugs we have now are not game breaking.

 

This solves the problem for all then. If you are happy for TFC to not update for 1.7.10, then you are happy to continue using the current release. If there are more 1.7.10 releases it doesn't matter, because you are happy with the current release and it basically works for you setup.  I'm not being an ass with that statement. You are asking for all dev of 1.7.10 to basically stop to stay with the current version so you can run it with cauldron, however everyone else who doesn't need cauldron would be punished by doing so. If it does develop beyond cauldron compatibility then you are no worse off.

 

I do really feel for you. I have setup and run a large public server (we were grey-listed) and know that we could not have done all the things we did without MCPC+/Cauldron. We used a lot of plugins to make things work mostly seamlessly and stopped so many problems before they started. You are in this bad spot through no fault of your own, but you have to accept it for what it is and decide the cost benefit of all your choices.

 

Also, can we stop with the "plan on compatibility" for sponge. Sponge will not change forge classes. It is being designed to function with forge such that it solves the problems that cauldron has/had. All the API's and their implementations are being designed to work together, not a hack and slash like MCPC+/Cauldron was.

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@Dries007 I'll try and find the posts I had written previously explaining to forge devs what functionality would be needed. I'll edit it for TFC (which needs much less than other modpack servers), but try and provide you with as much info as possible. Do you have a good understanding of how Prism works? Because if you are designing a logging mod, Prism is what people want. All the logging and the near perfect rollback functionality (it logs all the NBT data as well).

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@Djakuta having a server with extra mods helps to prevent "unwanted" players from joining. I operate a public server for my pack, without Cauldron, and we've only had one instance of theft (no griefing) and that has been dealt with properly (banned after discussion). Overall, things have been doing just fine. Most griefers do not play TFC on account of how long it takes to actually grief someone, and towns can be formed by players agreeing to work together. Another solution is to put some kind of puzzle at the beginning, most people won't bother it (a little bit of roll play is always nice).

 

That said, having server admin tools would be nice, some Forge mods do replicate functionality, when they work.

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@Djakuta, player count doesn't say if a server is fun to play on. It also doesn't say if a server should stay up or not. And it sais nothing about the staff running a server. It only sais something about the people who play on those servers since they choose to stay or go. Some people like small communities, other like large ones. Some like plain vanilla TFC, some like server commands.

 

I changed the image. It now shows whitelisted vs non-whitelisted servers. Apparently the whitelisted player base is considered to be the primary source of TFC players, all 5 of them. Yes I know there are more than 5, the image is just an indication of how player bases are divided. These numbers are pretty much what we see daily though. 90% of players can be found on non-whitelisted servers.

Posted Image

More numbers. The HappyDiggers TFC b78 server for Minecraft 1.6.4 has had 8466 individual players. The current server is at 927. I haven't compared to see how many of those are double. It does show something else that should be very relevant to TFC devs which I'll get to in a moment.

 

As for complaining to the cashier. to make the analogy more accurate. In this case strangely enough the cashier has full control over the prices in the store. And the cashier is free to ignore whatever other shops are doing. The cashier just does not want to because either the cashier doesn't care about non-whitelisted customers. Even though the majority of multiplayer customers want non-whitelisted. Or the cashier is afraid to because of beliefs that it will somehow hurt the store. This attitude is driving customers away. And that's what I was hinting at in the previous paragraph. TFC popularity is declining. The absence of more non-whitelisted servers could help in that regard.

 

It's quite simple really. I'm arguing so much because TFC claims to be a multiplayer oriented mod. And I have seen people been cut down on these forum for claiming otherwise. All I'm asking for is to cater to the 90% of your player base that does do multiplayer. If you don't want to, that is your decision of course. All I'm doing is making a suggestion and arguing why it's the right thing to do.

 

I'll say this. You could back port TFC b79 to Minecraft 1.6.4 and retain the bulk of current features and gameplay elements. It's not easy to do andd it would be an absolute pain. But it is possible with the limited set of Forge hooks provided back then. That is just how programming works.

 

A new Forge hook may solve a bug or provide a new feature more easily. But given that TFC is full of non-gamebreaking bugs, that shouldn't be as high up your priority list as caring for the majority of your multiplayer users.

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@Dries007 I'll try and find the posts I had written previously explaining to forge devs what functionality would be needed. I'll edit it for TFC (which needs much less than other modpack servers), but try and provide you with as much info as possible. Do you have a good understanding of how Prism works? Because if you are designing a logging mod, Prism is what people want. All the logging and the near perfect rollback functionality (it logs all the NBT data as well).

 

I don't know how prizm works, and I would prefer getting a small TLDR instead of having to go through the entire plugin :P

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@Dries007 I'll put some stuff together when I have time.

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To be whitelisted or not has nothing to do with the discussion at  hand.

My decision to make the server whitelisted was mostly because it forced players to create a account in TFC forum and that in itself would turn down many potential grieffers.

Whitelist dont mean protection, people can say whatever they want in a application an will say what they think will get then approved. 

One of the main reasons for me is because every single application means one more post in my tread so it is always in the first page. If I could figure a way to have every one making a post on the tread I would remove the whitelist thing.

One of the things to remember is that we do have our own forum so the server discussions are kept there. I would hate to ask my players just to bump my tread, so the whitelist applications are a legit and acceptable way to keep my tread up.

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I changed the image. It now shows whitelisted vs non-whitelisted servers. Apparently the whitelisted player base is considered to be the primary source of TFC players, all 5 of them. Yes I know there are more than 5, the image is just an indication of how player bases are divided. These numbers are pretty much what we see daily though. 90% of players can be found on non-whitelisted servers.More numbers. The HappyDiggers TFC b78 server for Minecraft 1.6.4 has had 8466 individual players. The current server is at 927. I haven't compared to see how many of those are double. It does show something else that should be very relevant to TFC devs which I'll get to in a moment. It's quite simple really. I'm arguing so much because TFC claims to be a multiplayer oriented mod. And I have seen people been cut down on these forum for claiming otherwise. All I'm asking for is to cater to the 90% of your player base that does do multiplayer. If you don't want to, that is your decision of course. All I'm doing is making a suggestion and arguing why it's the right thing to do.

 

There's a huge part of the TFC player base here that you are completely ignoring, and instead assuming that public non-whitelisted servers are the primary thing keeping TFC alive. You make the claim that 90% of players are on non-whitelisted servers, and yet that image only shows 48 players online. Do you honestly believe with that small of a sample size that you can assume it represents that large of a majority of players? While TFC is designed for multiplayer, there is a good chunk of players who do still play single player. There are also a good deal more of players who play on private servers with their friends, than those who play on public servers. You don't tend to consider these players, because they have no presence on the server subforum. I've started a poll on the homepage, and while the current sample size is small, I can use it to make a similar assumption that you made with your image, saying that "10% of players can be found on non-whitelisted servers."

 

Individual player statistics mean pretty much nothing for a non-whitelisted server. They are not an indicator of how many people are actively playing, and the number increases even if somebody joins once, logs off a minute later, and never plays again.

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What you're saying is all true. The sample in that image are from the active servers posted on the TFC server forum and by no means contain all TFC servers worldwide. What's also true is that many people who play TFC use a mod pack and never visit the TFC website (our or own forums for that matter).

Either way it will never be possible to get an entirely accurate reading on all of the TFC players.

Regardless of the outcome of this discussion. I would like to thank you for taking the time and effort to investigate this matter. It shows a lot of dedication.

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Hello, this is LiesTECH. I just wanted to say that I play on InsaneJ's server (I just use the facilities, I don't donate) and have also played on whitelisted servers. I just want to say that both had similar play experiences and both were enjoyable, BUT the whitelisted server still used Cauldron (LIU) and the smaller whitelisted server without cauldron got deleted within days of my first logging on because the owner got bored. After that last experience I didn't touch TFC for a bit.

 

Really then without Cauldron Protections your experience in TFC MP is either going to be very brief, very closeted(i.e. only close friends), or very violent a la RUST/DayZ/7 Days to Die with javelins. It's human nature and here there are no consequences to stop us. And yes I will likely only ever play the newest version of this mod, so if he needs cauldron and you invalidate cauldron and he has to stick with a previous version I will leave. It isn't personal, but I will. Even if it is just to play SP.

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