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aliceingame

TFC rewrite suggestions

23 posts in this topic

I want to know, is it still considered as "highly insulting" to propose to have some discussions about the rewrite of TFC ?

 

If the game is rewritten, I think it would be the best time to talk about the good and bad points of TFC and how we can improve the game in general. I do not say that the developers have to do whatever the players want, but at least in could start a reflection and maybe make the game overall better.

 

 

I guess that people will still say that it would not work.. but I am still curious to see if we can have a discussion with logic arguments on some changes we would bring to the game.

 

My goal is not to destroy TFC, but to improve it.... Anobody would like to try on a basic starting topic ?

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In case you missed the homepage post, TFC is already being rewritten rather than porting to Minecraft 1.8.

 

The "highly insulting" part of the last topic was because it was proposing that somebody else other than the current developers rewrite TFC.

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I believe aliceingame was meaning discussing the good and the bad in regards to the coming rewrite Bioxx announced.

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Yes, the thing is that sometime ago I raised the hypothesis of "what if TFC was to be rewritten"... and as I thought Bioxx would not do it, I asked to imagine what could happen if other people where to code it based on discussions... then it caused some commotion and my post was locked and judged as insulting. (and that was not my goal and anyways, with the support I had then, I would have never happened anyways, because of my almost complete lack of coding capacities)

 

And yes, I notices the msg in the homepage, that is why I'm asking.

 

So the question is, would it be welcome to discuss about the ideas of how TFC will be rewritten, of should we only want and see... hoping that the the development have learned from the actual experience and do some things differently... maybe in some cases the players ideas might lead to a different way to think and to code some features.... maybe it could slightly improve the game... who know.

 

For example I would start a discussion with general worldgen discussion, as I guess it would be the first thing to be coded.... or maybe I'm wrong... So discussion on different aspects of the world gen, ideas we have concerning how it could work, from biomes to rock, ore and mineral type... just as example of things that could be discussed to write a proper and complete suggestion based on all the players opinion...  that we could send for official review by the dev tem. Of course, a coder's point of view would be welcome to point out what is possible or not to code.

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You are always welcome to suggest a specific mechanic being rewritten in the Suggestions forum. That's kind of what the suggestions forum is for, not just for adding new content. There's no need to "send for official review" some finalized document, since we're scanning through the forums periodically anyways, and would see the discussion going on. We might use that discussion to inspire new ideas or ways of doing things, but don't expect to submit some formal document of "X mechanic should be written using style ABC" and actually get anywhere with it. This mod is our hobby, and while we are open to taking suggestions for how we do our hobby, we're not always going to change how we do it because somebody else tells us to.

 

As for world generation, I almost wouldn't bother since Bioxx has already started working on it, and already has a basic plan of how he wants to do it.

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Pardon my ignorance. I'd like to understand what are the advantages and disadvantages of MC 1.7.10 vs 1.8.x as a platform for TFC and further development + limitations. Thanks.

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Optimizations, Rendering & Graphics

Significant increase in FPS and performance

Each world (Overworld, Nether, End) now runs on its own thread

Some Relevant parts of the 1.8 Change log

Chunk rendering and chunk rebuilds are now multi-threaded - super fast chunk rendering!

Rewrote chunk sorting

Better visibility culling code

Mob pathfinding is now multi-threaded

Rewrote the inventory system (not sure if this one is good or bad for TFC, but would require code changes galore)

Rewrote how blocks are rendered & Rewrote how block data is handled (These two were the death nail for TFC being ported. It completely changes how the blocks are dealt with making the chiseling amongst other things needing a complete rewrite)

At first I thought a discussion like this would be helpful, but it would end up a big mess of various ideas that would not be a good resource to get info from. It would just be like the old suggestion thread was of multiple things crammed in one spot, repetitive etc. There is certainly nothing in the suggestion rules forbidding the dissection of a particular mechanism in game and suggestions for improving it. I think the grand plans for the direction of the mod should be left to those actually writing it.

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Thanks Bunsan. I agree that 1.8.x is a huge performance improvement, also for multiplayer. I now wish to contrast your post with the following line in the news on the front page:

 

1.8 sucks. TFC will not be ported to 1.8.

 

After reading the front page news I still don't understand why modders hate 1.8 so much. Are the challenges for modding MC finally too great to overcome after enduring version changes from earlier versions of MC to 1.6.x to 1.7.x? I'm looking forward to TFC 2 but not if it's years away in development. For me the version for 1.7.10 is final and MC 1.7.10 will likely be forgotten by the time another major TFC version for 1.7.10 rolls around. 

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Thanks Bunsan. I agree that 1.8.x is a huge performance improvement, also for multiplayer. I now wish to contrast your post with the following line in the news on the front page:

 

In order to make all of those awesome changes that Bunsan just listed, Minecraft had to essentially completely change how everything is handled behind the scenes. What that means is that we can't just do itty bitty tweaks to our code to make them work with the new system. There were so many changes made that at this point it is easier for us to rewrite from scratch than it is for us to tweak existing code and make it try to work with the new changes.

 

Edit: To make an analogy, think of TerraFirmaCraft as a cake, and Minecraft as the ingredients and tools to make that cake. Based on the ingredients and tools available, we have to alter our recipe to use the ingredients so that they produce the desired result. Now imagine that when Minecraft updated to 1.8.x, they added all these awesome new features to the ingredients to make them healthier or something, but in order for Minecraft to do that, they took away all of the sugar and they replaced it with salt, they took away all of our ovens and replaced them with dishwashers, and they replaced everything else with gluten-free, fat-free, flavor-free ingredients. Our recipe doesn't work now, and rather than try to edit the recipe and make it work, it's better for us to just start from scratch using this new ingredient list to try and create something at least similar to what we had before.

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For me the version for 1.7.10 is final and MC 1.7.10 will likely be forgotten by the time another major TFC version for 1.7.10 rolls around. 

 

I think you missed the point that there won't be any more major TFC versions for 1.7.10. The next major TFC version will be for 1.8, or whatever is the most updated, currently used version for modding at the time of release. It's just that that major version will not be a port of the current major version, it will be a rewrite. A port is we take our code, which no longer works with Minecraft's engine, and make small changes to it until it works again. A rewrite is when we throw the existing code out the window, and start from scratch to get the features working with the new engine.

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Ah, that makes more sense to me. Thanks, Kitty.

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This is the first I'm seeing of your edits to that post, Kitty. I'm glad to hear you all are all still apparently committed to TFC.

 

Can you speak as to the release patterns of TFC 2.0 (Or 1.8, however you will call it?). What I mean is, are you going to try and get the re-write close to TFC 1.7x as it is now before first release, or will you begin releasing stable versions as you progress, with features added in updates?

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This is the first I'm seeing of your edits to that post, Kitty. I'm glad to hear you all are all still apparently committed to TFC.

 

Can you speak as to the release patterns of TFC 2.0 (Or 1.8, however you will call it?). What I mean is, are you going to try and get the re-write close to TFC 1.7x as it is now before first release, or will you begin releasing stable versions as you progress, with features added in updates?

 

There hasn't been a decision made on that yet.

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... I know that suggestions should go in the suggestion subforum, you can lock or move this topic. I wont make much suggestions as they will most likely not be taken in consideration (I am sure someone already said that suggestion will most likely not be integrated in game).

 

I am not sure how biomes and worldgen work, but would it be possible to use the idea of MC 1.7 where a snow biome should not spawn next to a desert biome. Whan I mean is, would it be possible to let the game generate the patchwork of biomes, then the selection of the biome would be made out of some "rules" like if the biome generate in latitude x, it can be biome a,b,c but not d,e,f... and biome a have average humidity and temp of h and t, and these values can change inside of the said biome could change depending on other calculation including but not limited to altitude and longitude.

So instead of selecting the biome based on the temp/humidity map, the temp/humidity would be chosen by the biome.

Why would I suggest that ? Well to potentially increase the number of biomes, to have more diversity in the landscape. Would be nice to have an african savanah, an asian bamboo forest, an australian jungle (and a south american one) a canadian tundra... I guess you got the idea. Mod pack makers could then use mods like mo's creature to spawn the right animals in the right biomes.

 

I would suggest adding obsidian in some way (not vanilla obsidian generated in TFC), for the sake of mod comparibility, so we could have an obsidian equivalent in the oredict, and the possibility for modpack makers to add a vanilla obsidian recipe. It could be considered as a special stone so it could not be used to knap (I know kitty's opinion about obidian toold, even if for me they would make as much sense as a rocksalt tool).

 

At some point I would have suggested to remove rock salt from the rock types and turn it into a mineral, but ad I can see that there is some serious salt mines it the world, i'll just say that rocksalt blocks could be a key element in a "dry lake" biome.

 

I would suggest to scale the health on a vanilla level, for the sake of mod compatibility... thant and try to avoid breaking other dimensions. Making their access impossible within the normal circumstances is fine, but players should be able to go if they reallly want to.

 

Maybe add some ore like cobalt, for compatibility with other mods... and maybe some new historic allloys like elctrum.... 

 

 

that is just some random ideas I had.... I won't lose more of my time (and your's) and I won't try to discuss and improve these idea.

 

Have fun and see you when the new TFC is out.

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There is nothing wrong with most of your suggestions and they would be worth splitting up into separate threads in the suggestion section. I'd just ask that you preface them with a [TFC2] in title. I certainly have some comments I'd make on some of your suggestions.

I would not take it that your suggestions won't be considered or read by the devs, just that you can't expect that you'll see your suggestions as you presented them, or even in a form you remotely recognize, in the final product. That does not mean your suggestions can't have an influence. Some players seem to be think that if they make a suggestion that people generally like that the devs will and must put it in. This happens for a lot of mods, not just here. Obviously this isn't and shouldn't be how things work.

Edit: I'd also add that it is possible that some of the core mechanism aren't up for discussion with the devs sharing their thoughts because they want a bit of a wow factor for them. Presenting your plans usually ends up with people ripping them apart in some way causing self doubt or negative feelings. Frequently it is nearly impossible to communicate what you mean and the context of how it will all fit together. So it is better to work on it yourself with limited input so that you can flesh it out to a product people can experience and hopefully understand. This is especially true for ideas that you are really excited about. So it may be that biome/world gen isn't worth debating because Bioxx has an idea he really loves and is excited about and wants to complete and present his final vision to the community. World Gen is so key in the world of TFC that this makes a lot of sense.

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True. Bioxx is interested in world generation that is affected by weather patterns similar to Earth - the Coriolis effect and ocean currents. Wind direction and moisture from the nearest ocean will affect vegetation and maybe even topography or be affected by topography. This is also dependent on the latitude co-ordinate you're on. Therefore, there will not be any hard rules for biomes in TFC.

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Personally, I would like it if the TFC rewrite allowed the player to access other dimensions; I think that this needs to happen because it would improve mod compatibility between TFC & dimension mods such as Aether II, Twilight Forest, & Nevermine. Perhaps TFC could even add a new dimension (probably not, but one can dream… :P ).

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Personally, I would like it if the TFC rewrite allowed the player to access other dimensions; I think that this needs to happen because it would improve mod compatibility between TFC & dimension mods such as Aether II, Twilight Forest, & Nevermine. Perhaps TFC could even add a new dimension (probably not, but one can dream… :P ).

 

I totally agree on that one.

 

 

To come back to the original topic, I understand that the development team does not have to do what the players are expecting, but I have the feeling that some open discussion can hurt nobody. Still, I have the feeling that the answer is "bioxx have his ideas and his plan, it's his mod so he does what he want, so don't worry, let us surprise you"... still, I would be happier to see that an extension writer can add new biomes to TFC. To be honest, for me TFC does not even have biomes like we can find in vanilla (or with biomes mods), there is only altitude and climate variation, with random heat, rain level and trees... )

 

Anyways, everybody knows that we will still play even if we do not agree with all the dev. choices.

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Would be the new world generation more realistic? For example there's the RWG from Ted, which looks great. Really great.

I'd like to play TFC (and mod it) on a land which is more realistic, where ores could be in huge veins long weeks and hard work to mine it, but not everywhere. Of course it can be only an option.

I'm working on a pack which has Enviromine, Custom Ore Generation, Nature Overhaul, Hunger Overhaul etc., based on survival, adventure, logistics and strategy. TFC would be much more better base.

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Follow Bioxx on Twitter and you'll see the improved worldgen he has be working on for TFC2. And look at the Planned Features thread.

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Would be the new world generation more realistic? For example there's the RWG from Ted, which looks great. Really great.

I'd like to play TFC (and mod it) on a land which is more realistic, where ores could be in huge veins long weeks and hard work to mine it, but not everywhere. Of course it can be only an option.

I'm working on a pack which has Enviromine, Custom Ore Generation, Nature Overhaul, Hunger Overhaul etc., based on survival, adventure, logistics and strategy. TFC would be much more better base.

 

I would say we're kind of going in the opposite direction of realistic. We're doing something similar to this, http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~amitp/game-programming/polygon-map-generation/ but keeping it simple and using hexagons instead of full out polygons. You could say that some aspects, like rivers, are going to be handled a bit more realistically, but overall the map definitely won't really look like something you'd find in reality.

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I would say we're kind of going in the opposite direction of realistic. We're doing something similar to this, http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~amitp/game-programming/polygon-map-generation/ but keeping it simple and using hexagons instead of full out polygons. You could say that some aspects, like rivers, are going to be handled a bit more realistically, but overall the map definitely won't really look like something you'd find in reality.

I am very excited that the terrain generation is taking this route! I have been following bioxx's tfc2 github and have been watching carefully the way he has been approaching this problem and each update he adds I smile a bit more. I do hope though (as I have seen no sign of it yet) that he takes part of my huge terrain gen suggestion and applies it. The part I am talking about specifically is in reference to rock layers becoming more noisy as the surface height rises. That should be realitivly simple to achieve and it would mimic tectonic shifting without all that messy background number crunching :)Thanks for the link to that page kitty. It is a fun tool to play around with! Edited by Balthizarlucien
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I would be unoriginal and only query for compatibility, expandability and in general trying to turn as many features as possible either into modules utilizing common APIs or into APIs themselves.

 

I understand this complete redesign thing, however, to me, after some while it doesn't cost the loss of modularity and expandability of the normal MC - the thing that actually made me to play this game as long as I did at this point.

 

 

Also, I am kinda opposed by the decision to make certaing things only be made with a specific material that is deemed optional for this exact thing for one reason or another, even though there are several logically suitable materials for this available, albeit they are not the optimal one. Options are always good, and the argument that certain way is the optimal one is not a right one here - having more ways than one of doing stuff not only addresses bottleneck problems, but can also introduce emergent progression into doing something - you first do something the way you can, and then eventually become able to do it the optimal way. The latter, however, is more on the general design part than on the code design and rewriting.

Edited by transcengopher
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