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YourLottery

TFC needs something to gate the tech beyond anvils and finding ores

43 posts in this topic

Having put some hours into this mod now, I've found myself already growing bored for lack of a goal. You see, once you've found your cassiterite and can start the tech climb, it becomes a bit repetitive: smelt ores, make anvil, smelt ores, make anvil, etc. You only need to make a handful of tools at each metal level before you've obsoleted them. Armor is hardly needed, and takes so much ore that you just skip it (which is a shame, because the unique textures for various armors are very nice). In my SMP game we are currently about to produce blue steel, and i am still using a bronze sword and chestplate that are almost pristine (and an iron helmet from a zombie). By the time we found cassiterite, we already had copper and iron waiting to jump up to steel, and I only bothered to make some bronze things because our y=100 forge and bloomeries struggled to smelt the iron.

The other part that leads to the forthcoming suggestion is that the vanilla mobs just don't seem to fit in with the dwarf fortressy feel.

So my suggestion is to have new mobs (which I imagine is already planned). Not only that, but to have mob spawns based on biomes, rock type, depth, and type and quantity of nearby ores. Balance it so that to get higher tech metals you need to engage in more dangerous activities. If you dig to deep and unleash the balrog while wearing tin pants and brass boots you will be in for a world of hurt!

tl;dr: Gate tech advancement with smart mob spawning requiring players to gear up to get better ores.

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I love this idea so much, but unless Id Software intends to lend their AI development team to Bioxx I don't see it happening

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Having put some hours into this mod now, I've found myself already growing bored for lack of a goal. You see, once you've found your cassiterite and can start the tech climb, it becomes a bit repetitive: smelt ores, make anvil, smelt ores, make anvil, etc. You only need to make a handful of tools at each metal level before you've obsoleted them. Armor is hardly needed, and takes so much ore that you just skip it (which is a shame, because the unique textures for various armors are very nice). In my SMP game we are currently about to produce blue steel, and i am still using a bronze sword and chestplate that are almost pristine (and an iron helmet from a zombie). By the time we found cassiterite, we already had copper and iron waiting to jump up to steel, and I only bothered to make some bronze things because our y=100 forge and bloomeries struggled to smelt the iron.

The other part that leads to the forthcoming suggestion is that the vanilla mobs just don't seem to fit in with the dwarf fortressy feel.

So my suggestion is to have new mobs (which I imagine is already planned). Not only that, but to have mob spawns based on biomes, rock type, depth, and type and quantity of nearby ores. Balance it so that to get higher tech metals you need to engage in more dangerous activities. If you dig to deep and unleash the balrog while wearing tin pants and brass boots you will be in for a world of hurt!

tl;dr: Gate tech advancement with smart mob spawning requiring players to gear up to get better ores.

I'm not sure what you mean by gate, but I'm guessing you mean a reason to go from one tier to the next, and reasons to not have a stockpile that rockets you through. The bits on monsters was kind of covered in my Progressively Challenging Enemies thread and DanNetwalker's Monster Nests thread, and I guess it kind of petered out once dunkleosteus (who is on the Dev team) stated he had a general idea already. He did seem to like the Monster Nests idea. Then I feel like everyone decided to hold off until the Agricultural Update was done, though I don't remember if it was said specifically.

As a like-minded person I hope you'll look at the two threads and come up with better solutions than we did.

Just to be sure though, I'm not suggesting we resurrect those threads from the depths of the Suggestions section unless absolutely necessary. It's just that if you plan on suggesting progressing difficulty or monster AI ideas, there are some reference materials available to you.

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By 'gate' I mean a barrier to advancement that must be overcome. Your Progressively Challenging Enemies thread is actually pretty much what I invisioned, though I think it should be boosted by increasing spawns around ore (with bigger deposits spawning mobs faster). This would give players a reason to make armor and weapons immediately rather then just waiting until they ran up the tech tree.

I'm sure some people won't want to fight through a horde of trolls to get their hemitite, so the increased spawning near ore can scale with difficulty (no increase for easy, big increase for hard).

Mob spawns are a way of gating tech advancement while giving players a reason to make gear at their current level, but other gates can be made too (or instead). Perhaps prospector's picks could be limited in what they can find: stone p-picks find cassiterite/bismuthinite/sphalerite; tin, zinc, and bismuth prospector picks find up to the copper ores and coal, etc. That won't make a player inclined to make armor and weapons, but at least they'll have to make the prospector's picks and they will be less likely to have stockpiled a bunch of high end ores by the time they find cassiterite.

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Figured I'd do a search before posting a new topic and this one pretty much fits my "complaint' exactly.

I just finished playing about 2 days of the build 45 release and i had the same feeling as the OP. Once you get into ore smelting, it feels like a grind.

I would suggest some type of a step-up as well. For instance, the axe ---> saw is a well done leap in advancement. I think it's timed just right and offers a faster way to get wood. I would like to see this expanded on with as many things as possible. In addition to that, I would like to see several more steps of advancement. Maybe a sawmill (possibly semi-automatic?) with one of the higher tier metals? I'm only using the axe->saw->sawmill example because it's the easiest one i can think of. For the pick axe, a jackhammer just wouldn't fit the bill would it? but.. how about a serious itteration of blast minning? Some way to farm the ingredients for TNT? The anvil seems like it needs a tech up as well. Maybe you 'learn' to use the anvil better and it takes less hits untill at expert level, you can hit once and your done? lol

I'm really struggling to explain my point without feeling like I'm bashing the mod (because I'm not). I was attracted to this mod because Vanilla was just too easy and too predictable. But i think the current ittiration went a little too far in the opposite direction. Is it too hard and too mundane to be fun anymore? Obvious Exageration: Where is the fun in chopping down an entire rain forest, lugging it 300 blocks in what will most likely result in over 50 trips just so you can build a small house? How many trees does it take to fill up a charcoal pit? (too many?)

Instead, how about a log flume or at the very least access to a LOT of rails because transportation seems like it will be key with the smaller stack and chest sizes. Maybe pack mules? Horse and buggy?

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Figured I'd do a search before posting a new topic and this one pretty much fits my "complaint' exactly.

I just finished playing about 2 days of the build 45 release and i had the same feeling as the OP. Once you get into ore smelting, it feels like a grind.

I would suggest some type of a step-up as well. For instance, the axe ---> saw is a well done leap in advancement. I think it's timed just right and offers a faster way to get wood. I would like to see this expanded on with as many things as possible. In addition to that, I would like to see several more steps of advancement. Maybe a sawmill (possibly semi-automatic?) with one of the higher tier metals? I'm only using the axe->saw->sawmill example because it's the easiest one i can think of. For the pick axe, a jackhammer just wouldn't fit the bill would it? but.. how about a serious itteration of blast minning? Some way to farm the ingredients for TNT? The anvil seems like it needs a tech up as well. Maybe you 'learn' to use the anvil better and it takes less hits untill at expert level, you can hit once and your done? lol

I'm really struggling to explain my point without feeling like I'm bashing the mod (because I'm not). I was attracted to this mod because Vanilla was just too easy and too predictable. But i think the current ittiration went a little too far in the opposite direction. Is it too hard and too mundane to be fun anymore? Obvious Exageration: Where is the fun in chopping down an entire rain forest, lugging it 300 blocks in what will most likely result in over 50 trips just so you can build a small house? How many trees does it take to fill up a charcoal pit? (too many?)

Instead, how about a log flume or at the very least access to a LOT of rails because transportation seems like it will be key with the smaller stack and chest sizes. Maybe pack mules? Horse and buggy?

For the pickaxe it should be Small Mattox-->Mattox--->PickAxe.
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Figured I'd do a search before posting a new topic and this one pretty much fits my "complaint' exactly.

I just finished playing about 2 days of the build 45 release and i had the same feeling as the OP. Once you get into ore smelting, it feels like a grind.

I would suggest some type of a step-up as well. For instance, the axe ---> saw is a well done leap in advancement. I think it's timed just right and offers a faster way to get wood. I would like to see this expanded on with as many things as possible. In addition to that, I would like to see several more steps of advancement. Maybe a sawmill (possibly semi-automatic?) with one of the higher tier metals? I'm only using the axe->saw->sawmill example because it's the easiest one i can think of. For the pick axe, a jackhammer just wouldn't fit the bill would it? but.. how about a serious itteration of blast minning? Some way to farm the ingredients for TNT? The anvil seems like it needs a tech up as well. Maybe you 'learn' to use the anvil better and it takes less hits untill at expert level, you can hit once and your done? lol

I'm really struggling to explain my point without feeling like I'm bashing the mod (because I'm not). I was attracted to this mod because Vanilla was just too easy and too predictable. But i think the current ittiration went a little too far in the opposite direction. Is it too hard and too mundane to be fun anymore? Obvious Exageration: Where is the fun in chopping down an entire rain forest, lugging it 300 blocks in what will most likely result in over 50 trips just so you can build a small house? How many trees does it take to fill up a charcoal pit? (too many?)

Instead, how about a log flume or at the very least access to a LOT of rails because transportation seems like it will be key with the smaller stack and chest sizes. Maybe pack mules? Horse and buggy?

Also a lot of those ideas have been suggested. Please do research before people think you're lazy.
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Hardmode makes monsters hurt and is a great incentive to grab armor asap.

In those 2 days and several minecraft nights, I never had to deal with one monster... A bed works great...

Also a lot of those ideas have been suggested. Please do research before people think you're lazy.

Alright Mr Forum Nazi, calm down and re-evaluate this thread a little closer. This thread is not about suggestions, it is about the tier advancement of the game, the flow and design. Better read what your posting on before peole think you're stupid... :)
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as far as mobs go, I don't think will happen. Mobs are designed to inhabit specific places, but as they have no understanding of ores or metalurgy, they have no reason to hangout around ore bodies

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You could always design a mob that has a physiological need for certain minerals? Maybe something silverfish-like?

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as far as mobs go, I don't think will happen. Mobs are designed to inhabit specific places, but as they have no understanding of ores or metalurgy, they have no reason to hangout around ore bodies

could re-add villagers and make them do some basic mining, but I suppose that would require fairly complex AI

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could re-add villagers and make them do some basic mining, but I suppose that would require fairly complex AI

I want to do this so bad. I had outlined the way I wanted villagers to work, how they'd interact, and some basis of code for them. It took me 3 hours and by the end of it, I knew it would lag mc too much. If this mod is still going in like 5 years when computers are a lot better, I'd like to implement it. (My idea wound up having each npc with emotions, feelings, memories and experiences, as well as a "job". By job, I mean that the villagers would identify several resources which they would need to survive (wood, food, water, tools etc) for each day to be happy, and they would delegate amongst themselves who would do what. They would draw parallels and have disputes amongst themselves, which they would try to resolve. Resolutions would be determined by identifying what was the root cause of the issue and how serious it was. If it had effected enough NPCs to a severe enough degree, they would try to decide a suitable punishment. The outcome of this decision would then be weighed communilly, by comparing how content the villagers were with the result, but also would also weigh their empathy as to whether or not the punishment matched the crime. If the result was undesirable, it would be scrapped, but if it wasn't, it would be saved into a function that would be recalled if a similar event occurred in the future. In this way, the villagers would form their own laws and system of justice. They would identify the need for order, as it would result in happiness and would decide that their needed to be people who would enforce their laws (theoretically, they might not, afterall) and might create a system of guards to uphold their laws. In this way, the villagers evolve and develop on their own, having their own social interactions and resolutions. The key to all of this was identifying key components of what makes a human a human, such as how we learn, resolve things, remember things, draw parallels, make assumptions and problem solve. Of course, you'd be able to help them along too, by providing them with new tools and materials or trading so that they would progress. What I like about this is that if the village decided they needed some one who, for a living, would trade all goods, and you decided to barter with that person, all of the items they had to offer were brought to them and traded for other items by other villagers. I like how it simulates real life by acting it out.) This was just an idea though, and I guess you can understand why it would lag the game too much =P
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I want to do this so bad. I had outlined the way I wanted villagers to work, how they'd interact, and some basis of code for them. It took me 3 hours and by the end of it, I knew it would lag mc too much. If this mod is still going in like 5 years when computers are a lot better, I'd like to implement it. (My idea wound up having each npc with emotions, feelings, memories and experiences, as well as a "job". By job, I mean that the villagers would identify several resources which they would need to survive (wood, food, water, tools etc) for each day to be happy, and they would delegate amongst themselves who would do what. They would draw parallels and have disputes amongst themselves, which they would try to resolve. Resolutions would be determined by identifying what was the root cause of the issue and how serious it was. If it had effected enough NPCs to a severe enough degree, they would try to decide a suitable punishment. The outcome of this decision would then be weighed communilly, by comparing how content the villagers were with the result, but also would also weigh their empathy as to whether or not the punishment matched the crime. If the result was undesirable, it would be scrapped, but if it wasn't, it would be saved into a function that would be recalled if a similar event occurred in the future. In this way, the villagers would form their own laws and system of justice. They would identify the need for order, as it would result in happiness and would decide that their needed to be people who would enforce their laws (theoretically, they might not, afterall) and might create a system of guards to uphold their laws. In this way, the villagers evolve and develop on their own, having their own social interactions and resolutions. The key to all of this was identifying key components of what makes a human a human, such as how we learn, resolve things, remember things, draw parallels, make assumptions and problem solve. Of course, you'd be able to help them along too, by providing them with new tools and materials or trading so that they would progress. What I like about this is that if the village decided they needed some one who, for a living, would trade all goods, and you decided to barter with that person, all of the items they had to offer were brought to them and traded for other items by other villagers. I like how it simulates real life by acting it out.) This was just an idea though, and I guess you can understand why it would lag the game too much =P

Ever heard of the old engineering maxim "KISS"?

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Not trying to be snarky. That sounds neat. Just... maybe you're over-complicating matters.

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Not trying to be snarky. That sounds neat. Just... maybe you're over-complicating matters.

I'll probably add a rudimentary version of this in after mobs and other stuff
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I want to do this so bad. I had outlined the way I wanted villagers to work, how they'd interact, and some basis of code for them. It took me 3 hours and by the end of it, I knew it would lag mc too much. If this mod is still going in like 5 years when computers are a lot better, I'd like to implement it. (My idea wound up having each npc with emotions, feelings, memories and experiences, as well as a "job". By job, I mean that the villagers would identify several resources which they would need to survive (wood, food, water, tools etc) for each day to be happy, and they would delegate amongst themselves who would do what. They would draw parallels and have disputes amongst themselves, which they would try to resolve. Resolutions would be determined by identifying what was the root cause of the issue and how serious it was. If it had effected enough NPCs to a severe enough degree, they would try to decide a suitable punishment. The outcome of this decision would then be weighed communilly, by comparing how content the villagers were with the result, but also would also weigh their empathy as to whether or not the punishment matched the crime. If the result was undesirable, it would be scrapped, but if it wasn't, it would be saved into a function that would be recalled if a similar event occurred in the future. In this way, the villagers would form their own laws and system of justice. They would identify the need for order, as it would result in happiness and would decide that their needed to be people who would enforce their laws (theoretically, they might not, afterall) and might create a system of guards to uphold their laws. In this way, the villagers evolve and develop on their own, having their own social interactions and resolutions. The key to all of this was identifying key components of what makes a human a human, such as how we learn, resolve things, remember things, draw parallels, make assumptions and problem solve. Of course, you'd be able to help them along too, by providing them with new tools and materials or trading so that they would progress. What I like about this is that if the village decided they needed some one who, for a living, would trade all goods, and you decided to barter with that person, all of the items they had to offer were brought to them and traded for other items by other villagers. I like how it simulates real life by acting it out.) This was just an idea though, and I guess you can understand why it would lag the game too much =P

Hmmm... if at all possible, I think perhaps you could take a thing or two from the laws of physics. In physics, there's maybe half a dozen set values the universe is given to work on, a few basic rules, and a framework on how to use those general rules to get more specific rules when the need arises. From there, it all just feeds off of and learns from itself, resolving its own stresses in the least energy-intensive way and boom - instant reality.

Biology follows the same principal, you just take the basics and give them a few simple rules to follow, and the rest simply evolves out from itself.

You guys have already done this in several ways. You kicked the 'biomes' in the teeth and just said "Here's what temperatures are like. These mobs like these temperatures.", and now those mobs naturally migrate to certain biomes without even having to be told.

Efficiency is the hallmark of reality. Nature wastes not a single line of its own 'code' - every class has a thousand and one uses called from hundreds of other functions. The same algorithm that determines one thing will factor into 15 others, and you'll end up with a hundred variables all needing only a single constant.

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To bad minecraft wasn't written in C#, innatly multicore would boost performance so much. But, its not its in java. If you could somehow get the villager ai to run in a sepperate thread or on its own core it would run along side fine. Well at least on 4+ core servers anyhow.

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To bad minecraft wasn't written in C#, innatly multicore would boost performance so much. But, its not its in java. If you could somehow get the villager ai to run in a sepperate thread or on its own core it would run along side fine. Well at least on 4+ core servers anyhow.

Another problem is that for it to function properly, it would have to still run even outside of loaded chunks
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Another problem is that for it to function properly, it would have to still run even outside of loaded chunks

Another thing they could have dealt with more readily outside of java: if the system has plenty of RAM you don't need to change the calling parameters to feed a vm more if it was in C. It could just take advantage of it, allowing you to keep more of the world loaded at a time.

(also, please don't assume C#, C++ is a better choice for cross platform, where C# is mainly intended for windows.)

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I said c# because it is engineered with multicore at the heart of its functionality, c++ isn't.

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Alright Mr Forum Nazi, calm down and re-evaluate this thread a little closer. This thread is not about suggestions, it is about the tier advancement of the game, the flow and design. Better read what your posting on before peole think you're stupid... :)

We also like to keep the forums on topic. If a person has suggestion they should research the forum and then suggest it. I'm just saying Mr. Prickpants, that ctl+f is there for a reason...
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We also like to keep the forums on topic. If a person has suggestion they should research the forum and then suggest it. I'm just saying Mr. Prickpants, that ctl+f is there for a reason...

lolwut

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I said c# because it is engineered with multicore at the heart of its functionality, c++ isn't.

maybe not on winblows, pthreads has been around on unix systems since a long long time ago, and isn't really a big deal to use.

I think boost implemented threads in a cross platform way as well, and there are plenty of threading libraries around besides that.

IT doesnt matter if the language centers on it, its simple to implement, and isn't wrapped up in Microspoof licensing.

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maybe not on winblows, pthreads has been around on unix systems since a long long time ago, and isn't really a big deal to use.

I think boost implemented threads in a cross platform way as well, and there are plenty of threading libraries around besides that.

IT doesnt matter if the language centers on it, its simple to implement, and isn't wrapped up in Microspoof licensing.

You may want to rethink your use of language, as you come off as being either 12 years old, or most likely ignorant fanboy, or both.

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