TFC needs something to gate the tech beyond anvils and finding ores

[kotoroshinoto 97]

You may want to rethink your use of language, as you come off as being either 12 years old, or most likely ignorant fanboy, or both.

I'm just tired of windows' me too response to all these features of programming languages. There is no need for a .NET equivalent of everything when its already been implemented elsewhere. I never liked windows, even before I really learned how to use linux, or even knew it existed, I was getting irritated at them for the stupid bullshit they pulled during the 95->98(SE)->XP transition and all of the BSOD that came with it.

If businesses would do things correctly and implement things in a cross-platform manner from the start, these silly .net and visual compilers would have died an early death. (and it really isn't that difficult, boost and wxwidgets or qt, and opengl make almost all projects relatively easy to implement in a cross platform manner, provided you START with that intent and aren't trying to port windows oriented code)

C# is Microsoft's attempt to present a c++ style language in an environment that is highly similar to both c++ AND java, but it adds very little if anything that you don't ALREADY get with C++ and gnu compiler tools (they DO exist on windows, its called MINGW). They even put out a visual basic update that links resulting binaries to .net runtime. .NET is now becoming the biggest obstacle to getting newer software to run smoothly in linux/wine/mono, and there really wasn't any reason to make it. C++ could do the job already, and if there wasn't a super-easy ready-made feature, a library could be built to provide the api you need without re-implementing the project every time.

and before you jump on my claim of "no need", usage does not indicate "need" it indicates willingness to consume and somtimes indicates customer loyalty and ignorance.

There are valid uses of visual languages and java, java is very good for UI programs that do not need to churn through a lot of CPU cycles and visual languages are fine for adding functionality within microsoft's own software products (like adding novel functions to exceel with VBASIC)

Hell even I use perl and python from time to time, i'm not stuck on the cock of C like you may think.

(there is a reason that most bioinformatics programs are implemented in C++, and when they aren't they're implemented in java/perl/python. I've yet to see a bioinformatics program developed in C# or visual basic.)

and good luck writing anything useful in brainfuck or chef

http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/chef.html

http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/

ok thats enough off topic shit, we really ought to be talking about how to put more milestones into TFC

[Delta 7x 0]

I want to do this so bad. I had outlined the way I wanted villagers to work, how they'd interact, and some basis of code for them. It took me 3 hours and by the end of it, I knew it would lag mc too much. If this mod is still going in like 5 years when computers are a lot better, I'd like to implement it. (My idea wound up having each npc with emotions, feelings, memories and experiences, as well as a "job". By job, I mean that the villagers would identify several resources which they would need to survive (wood, food, water, tools etc) for each day to be happy, and they would delegate amongst themselves who would do what. They would draw parallels and have disputes amongst themselves, which they would try to resolve. Resolutions would be determined by identifying what was the root cause of the issue and how serious it was. If it had effected enough NPCs to a severe enough degree, they would try to decide a suitable punishment. The outcome of this decision would then be weighed communilly, by comparing how content the villagers were with the result, but also would also weigh their empathy as to whether or not the punishment matched the crime. If the result was undesirable, it would be scrapped, but if it wasn't, it would be saved into a function that would be recalled if a similar event occurred in the future. In this way, the villagers would form their own laws and system of justice. They would identify the need for order, as it would result in happiness and would decide that their needed to be people who would enforce their laws (theoretically, they might not, afterall) and might create a system of guards to uphold their laws. In this way, the villagers evolve and develop on their own, having their own social interactions and resolutions. The key to all of this was identifying key components of what makes a human a human, such as how we learn, resolve things, remember things, draw parallels, make assumptions and problem solve. Of course, you'd be able to help them along too, by providing them with new tools and materials or trading so that they would progress. What I like about this is that if the village decided they needed some one who, for a living, would trade all goods, and you decided to barter with that person, all of the items they had to offer were brought to them and traded for other items by other villagers. I like how it simulates real life by acting it out.) This was just an idea though, and I guess you can understand why it would lag the game too much =P

Soo, long story short, basically a more complicated millenaire? Or at least that is what it seems like. Though some of the basics of what you just mentioned are in millenaire, well, trading, questing, and them building/destroying blocks are in the mod. Though the given settlements are loaded when you get into those given chunks which I am certain is to prevent loads of lag..

Then again, it would take just that much longer to make it SMP compatible as well, as long as millenaire has been out it STILL isn't compatible with SMP.

Though, it's just a thought really..

[cevkiv 156]

(This is my first snip.)

There's a perfectly good reason for "the problems with .Net" as *nix users experience them: To cause problems for the people trying to run Windows software on a system that isn't Windows.

Microsoft wants you to use Windows. If you can't use Windows software without using a Windows OS, then you are either forced to use a Windows OS or abandon the use of Windows software. Guess which most people will choose?

As someone who has been using Microsoft products since DOS 3, and is familiar with netBSD and various forms of Linux, I can say this: It doesn't matter how good any of the Unices get. It doesn't matter if the Unices could run every piece of Windows software flawless and give me fellatio. What matters is that at the end of the day, when something goes wrong with my computer, there is someone I can call for tech support. When I bought my copy of Windows 7 for $200, I paid $200 for three things: Tech Support for when I can't figure it out myself and googlefu fails me, updates, and to get rid of that annoying "you are using an invalid piece of software" message.

I used to do C programming and game development in a netBSD environment. I prefer using a netBSD machine for any kind of development over doing it on my Windows 7 machine. Not because the IDEs available on *BSD are better, or because "it runs faster" or anything like that. It's because the Unix environment was designed in part for software development (also, it's what I learned, and I'll be damned if I'll learn the Windows API shit).

However, there were multiple instances using netBSD (and other variants of Unix-based OSes) where things would only barely work -- hardware not recognized and not functioning, or not fully functioning, programs not running due to some inane dependancy, etc. I have never had any of those problems with Windows 7. On Windows 7 everything just works.

Furthermore, Microsoft developed DirectX, and for that I thank them daily. Freedom in regards to software and its licenses is great and all, but having the market power to force people to use and follow a standard allows for shit to get done.

[kotoroshinoto 97]

There's a perfectly good reason for "the problems with .Net" as *nix users experience them: To cause problems for the people trying to run Windows software on a system that isn't Windows.

Microsoft wants you to use Windows. If you can't use Windows software without using a Windows OS, then you are either forced to use a Windows OS or abandon the use of Windows software. Guess which most people will choose?"

I know, because most people have no interest in learning how their computer ACTUALLY works, they'd rather use the features made readily available and hand fed to them. That and most people are severely intellectually lazy. Not to mention, microsoft is fully within its rights to do this, but dominating the market to the point that OTHER developers have no choice but to develop things for windows AND do not even BOTHER to develop software that works on other platforms should NOT be allowed. That is the embodiment of anti-competitive monopoly.

"As someone who has been using Microsoft products since DOS 3, and is familiar with netBSD and various forms of Linux, I can say this: It doesn't matter how good any of the Unices get. It doesn't matter if the Unices could run every piece of Windows software flawless and give me fellatio. What matters is that at the end of the day, when something goes wrong with my computer, there is someone I can call for tech support. When I bought my copy of Windows 7 for $200, I paid $200 for three things: Tech Support for when I can't figure it out myself and googlefu fails me, updates, and to get rid of that annoying "you are using an invalid piece of software" message.

I have yet to run into a problem on any modern unix that could not be solved, or at least answered, with a diligent search in the right areas. (Sometimes the hardware is simply not supported because it is old or the manufacturers refuse to cooperate for driver programming) There is a reason they have the acronym RTFM. Package managers and public repositories solved the serious dependency problems that used to plague intermediate to novice level unix users. Don't have a required library? yum search or aptitude search will ordinarily locate it, and if not you can generally find the source or even a 3rd party repository to enable install of the missing software.

It sounds complicated, but it isn't, it usually comes down to 1 or 2 console commands or inputs into the package manager GUI MAX.

I used to do C programming and game development in a netBSD environment. I prefer using a netBSD machine for any kind of development over doing it on my Windows 7 machine. Not because the IDEs available on *BSD are better, or because "it runs faster" or anything like that. It's because the Unix environment was designed in part for software development (also, it's what I learned, and I'll be damned if I'll learn the Windows API shit).

However, there were multiple instances using netBSD (and other variants of Unix-based OSes) where things would only barely work -- hardware not recognized and not functioning, or not fully functioning, programs not running due to some inane dependancy, etc. I have never had any of those problems with Windows 7. On Windows 7 everything just works.

It has a tendency of just working the way they want rather than the way YOU want, due to lack of ability to configure and control the system in certain ways. Many times, it just breaks, silently. You have to actually look in the error logs to realize that hardware is failing sometimes because the drivers often report the hardware is functioning properly when it ISN'T. On unix, when something breaks, it generally fucks off and you get a message to STDERR to say so. Windows is written to be fault-tolerant to the extreme, so when something finally dies, it seems like the computer suddenly broke, when in fact its been sick for quite some time.

Furthermore, Microsoft developed DirectX, and for that I thank them daily. Freedom in regards to software and its licenses is great and all, but having the market power to force people to use and follow a standard allows for shit to get done.

Nothing wrong with directx per se, but its relatively simple to put that layer of control behind an API and allow the user to swap which graphics control software they want the program to use, from the code's perspective you call the same API commands, and the other end plugs in to either opengl or directx or some other video library.

The point is it is usually BAD design to design software to be stuck on ONE platform, unless you are the company that markets said platform.

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

We also like to keep the forums on topic. If a person has suggestion they should research the forum and then suggest it. I'm just saying Mr. Prickpants, that ctl+f is there for a reason...

maybe not on winblows, pthreads has been around on unix systems since a long long time ago, and isn't really a big deal to use.

I think boost implemented threads in a cross platform way as well, and there are plenty of threading libraries around besides that.

IT doesnt matter if the language centers on it, its simple to implement, and isn't wrapped up in Microspoof licensing.

Hey watch it guys. No need for aggression.

There's a perfectly good reason for "the problems with .Net" as *nix users experience them: To cause problems for the people trying to run Windows software on a system that isn't Windows.

Microsoft wants you to use Windows. If you can't use Windows software without using a Windows OS, then you are either forced to use a Windows OS or abandon the use of Windows software. Guess which most people will choose?

I know, because most people have no interest in learning how their computer ACTUALLY works, they'd rather use the features made readily available and hand fed to them. That and most people are severely intellectually lazy. Not to mention, microsoft is fully within its rights to do this, but dominating the market to the point that OTHER developers have no choice but to develop things for windows AND do not even BOTHER to develop software that works on other platforms should NOT be allowed. That is the embodiment of anti-competitive monopoly.

try and stay on topic please

[Jed1314 420]

I think perhaps staying away from talk of operating systems would go a long way to calming down the internet.

If religion is the opium of the people, operating systems are the opium of the techy

[kotoroshinoto 97]

I think perhaps staying away from talk of operating systems would go a long way to calming down the internet.

If religion is the opium of the people, operating systems are the opium of the techy

dunno if opiate is the right way to put it, it doesn't calm us down and keep us complacent. but you're right about the camps that go after each other.

[Jed1314 420]

dunno if opiate is the right way to put it, it doesn't calm us down and keep us complacent. but you're right about the camps that go after each other.

I was more referring to the addictive nature of opium. Once the general populace finds religion, they will often cling to it and fervently support it, the same thing seems to happen with os's. I think something in human nature dictates we need something to take sides about, no matter how grand or trivial

Man, I am feeling deep tonight :L

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

I was more referring to the addictive nature of opium. Once the general populace finds religion, they will often cling to it and fervently support it, the same thing seems to happen with os's. I think something in human nature dictates we need something to take sides about, no matter how grand or trivial

Man, I am feeling deep tonight :L

oh no. we are NOT bringing religion into this discussion.

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

oh no. we are NOT bringing religion into this discussion.

Oh come on Dunk, why not? Hell we could even add it to TerraF- *blackbagged*

Hell even I use perl and python from time to time

Some said the world should be in Perl

Some said in Lisp

Now, having given both a whirl

I held with those who favored Perl

But I fear we passed to men

A disappointing founding myth

And should we write it all again

I'll end it with

A close-paren.

-"With apologies to Robert Frost", xkcd

Also, <3 Python

[Jed1314 420]

oh no. we are NOT bringing religion into this discussion.

It was a careless reference to Religion. The main topic of my discussion was about how people would pick anything to argue about. But I can see where the potential for trouble was in me mentioning religion :S

[mvdhoning 5]

java can do threads (multicore) too if you know the language. End discussion?

[cevkiv 156]

java can do threads (multicore) too if you know the language. End discussion?

I think the word you're looking for is "multithreading". "Multicore" refers to the CPU having more than one "core" on the "die". "Multithreading" is the ability for a "Process" to arbitrarily pause execution of one segment of a program and begin execution of another segment of that program, that is, to basically swap the flow of execution back and forth between multiple states. For example, in a simple listen server, you might have four threads: One thread polls the listening socket for incoming connections and adds those connections to a list of connected users, another thread that polls the connections in the list of connected users for input and transfers that input to a buffer, and a third thread that takes the input in the buffer and does something with it to create an output, and the final thread takes that output and sends it back to the relevant user.

If I got anything wrong, I apologize. It's been more than half a decade since I read Modern Operating Systems by Tanenbaum.

[mvdhoning 5]

Java can do multithreading too if you know the language. End discussion?

I used the word multicore because the person who started the discussion on 'why not use c# or something else' used that word.

Trying to go back on topic:

In real history people became tired of doing things by hand and started inventing machines to help them and in the process of that came the hunt for better metal and such. By machines i do NOT mean technic! More those like in btw (better then wolves). It could add milling, fabric, pottery and as they put it all their thing come before steel. http://sargunster.com/btw/index.php?title=Ages

[Jed1314 420]

-snip-

Milling, spinning, pottery and a good number of other technologies did exist in the TFC timeframe, so they could easily be implemented and not feel out of place. However, I do think that they should focus on changing the vanilla gameplay as much as they want to before adding in these features. That is something BTW did not have to contend with so much. This mod proposes such drastic changes to basic elements of MC that machines and the like are really something of an afterthought. Of course this is just my opinion

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

How did a post about "gating" tech beyond anvils and ore finding ended in a discussion about operating systems and java?

[kotoroshinoto 97]

please dont bring it up anymore, I can't help myself.

[Jed1314 420]

please dont bring it up anymore, I can't help myself.

OSA ? (Operating Systems Anonymous)

Yeah, I feel like the anvils are plenty sufficient to gate tech for the time being *back on topic*