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Just_Another_Guy_:)

Enchantment system

187 posts in this topic

Well yeah, there obviously has to be some sort of block for enchanting. You can't just randomly be like 'oh, btw, this emerald is magic now kthnxbai'.

And about the runes, while I definitely agree that there should be some sort of identifier, I do NOT think that the effects should manifest like that. What would happen if a fire rune spawned in a jungle?

And maybe not necessarily mushrooms, but it should probably stick to just one item - otherwise the generation would just become way too complicated to code

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so let me get this straight, you believe that you can just put a gem on a weapon and it will stick? a jewlery table is necessary for for adding in a believeablility factor. plus enchanting should be difficult. the simpler that bioxx makes it the easier it will be to get juggernaut players. and on the subbject i do believe that when bioxx gets around to working on new mobs and mob spawning systems he will be sure to find a way to balance things around all the implemented systems. im sure he will find a way to progress mobs along with the player. one idea i had was that he could simply use the calander and make it so mobs get stronger over time until they reach a max strength that is balance around the strongest regular weapons and armour. so as time goes by each new mob that spawns gets stronger and stronger. another idea i had was to make it so that mobs used a nesting program rather then spawn they actualy breed and their numbers swell to huge numbers in certain areas. only hope to stake out a claim anywhere is to hunt down and kill every mob in an area and find their nests/dens and destroy them. or maybe a combo of both. these ways, no matter how many enchants, no matter how powerful the player gets, eventualy the mobs will catch up and be able to kill even the strongest of players. maybe even make it so that new mobs can try to move in so you have to head out every once in a while and destroy any near by mob nests. or have to keep a constant guard against ubermobs that can kill even a group of players wearing bronze, or one player wearing redsteel armour. if this is the case then enchants would be a necessity and therefore should be harder to get then just put a gem on the sword in your crafting table and enchant it.

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so let me get this straight, you believe that you can just put a gem on a weapon and it will stick? a jewlery table is necessary for for adding in a believeablility factor. plus enchanting should be difficult. the simpler that bioxx makes it the easier it will be to get juggernaut players. and on the subbject i do believe that when bioxx gets around to working on new mobs and mob spawning systems he will be sure to find a way to balance things around all the implemented systems. im sure he will find a way to progress mobs along with the player. one idea i had was that he could simply use the calander and make it so mobs get stronger over time until they reach a max strength that is balance around the strongest regular weapons and armour. so as time goes by each new mob that spawns gets stronger and stronger. another idea i had was to make it so that mobs used a nesting program rather then spawn they actualy breed and their numbers swell to huge numbers in certain areas. only hope to stake out a claim anywhere is to hunt down and kill every mob in an area and find their nests/dens and destroy them. or maybe a combo of both. these ways, no matter how many enchants, no matter how powerful the player gets, eventualy the mobs will catch up and be able to kill even the strongest of players. maybe even make it so that new mobs can try to move in so you have to head out every once in a while and destroy any near by mob nests. or have to keep a constant guard against ubermobs that can kill even a group of players wearing bronze, or one player wearing redsteel armour. if this is the case then enchants would be a necessity and therefore should be harder to get then just put a gem on the sword in your crafting table and enchant it.

Actually I hadn't even put any thought into how the gems would be fitted to equipment after being enchanted.

A jewelers table makes little sense though, if I have steel armor and I want to stick a gem in it, I'm gonna have a damn tough time of it if all I have is a table, a pair of pliers, and a can-do attitude. Now that I'm actually thinking about the process, wouldn't it be simpler and more believable to add one more item slot to the anvil GUI, where you could place enchantment gems to be incorporated into whatever you're making? I think it makes a hell of a lot more sense to embed an extremely hard crystal into the raw hot metal than it does to try and work it into a breastplate you've already crafted and allowed to cool.

So to sum things up, here's my vision of the ideal TFC enchanting system:

1) Find gems of various types and quality

2) Craft arcane workbench from 5 wood, a feather, 2 chipped gems, and a piece of leather

3) Find Dragonsblood trees as mentioned by Lumy in a separate thread, and get their resin

4) Craft ink sacs, rose red, and dragonsblood resin to get arcane markings

5) Find rune randomly generated in world

6) Head back to arcane workbench and scribe rune onto a gem, potentially enchanting it

7) Place enchanted gems destined for metal items (tools, armor, etc...) in anvil GUI slot

8) Upon successful crafting of item, gem disappears and items comes off the anvil enchanted (non-anvil items - like chests - could just be enchanted in the crafting area since they're made of softer materials you could just stick a gem into. Stone tools would not be enchantable)

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Okay lot of disagreement here however your ideas are all very similar as far as I can tell I will try to write one idea that ties them all together. Step 1, enchant gem, the type of gem (agate, opal, etc.) determines which set of enchantments are available (ruby = fire), the quality will determine the level of the enchanting (flawed = II) (possibly a chance system instead, so flawed could be V but exquisite have a far better chance of it). So now we have for instance a flawed ruby which is enchanted with Fire II. Step 2 we fuse the gem with the tool in some magical way and if the enchantments are too much for the tool it will destroy itself. For instance a stone sword couldn't handle Fire V but a Rose Gold sword could handle one and if you get lucky maybe another V of some type. Finally, Step 3, you use the tool each set would act differently mattering on what it was fused to like a Fire 1 on a pickaxe could autosmelt mined material sometimes on the other hand if it was on a sword it could light an enemy on fire or on a helmet it could prevent some damage given by fire.

So to recap, enchant gem in enchanting table, fuse enchanted gem to tool, use tool in the specific way it was designed.

Edit: sorry for the edit here i didn't see the above post. But i think that (the rune system) is a little over the top the whole enchanting thing will be most likely a small side attraction not the ferris wheel (weird analogy but you know what i mean). This mod is not about that at all the system replacing it should just be so it fits with TFC not Thaumcraft it wouldn't be a bad idea to suggest it to Xenophobe Thaumcraft is yet to have an enchantment system.

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Edit: sorry for the edit here i didn't see the above post. But i think that (the rune system) is a little over the top the whole enchanting thing will be most likely a small side attraction not the ferris wheel (weird analogy but you know what i mean). This mod is not about that at all the system replacing it should just be so it fits with TFC not Thaumcraft it wouldn't be a bad idea to suggest it to Xenophobe Thaumcraft is yet to have an enchantment system.

a) it's not the main attraction, these would just be little glowy 5x5 clusters of some small block, like mushrooms, scattered VERY infrequently around. Like, 0-1 per biome infrequently. Not something that's going to be getting in your face.

b ) Thaumcraft does too have an enchanting system, how long has it been since you've played it? The occultic enchanter is made of sexiness

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I skimmed the Thaumcraft wiki briefly so I didn't see that. I'm not just referring to the spawn rate of the runes though I'm referring to the process it seems like too much the runes, the tree, the arcane workbench. The enchant gems idea is a lot simpler and frankly it i think its easier to understand. However I would like further elaboration on step 8 that's where I'm confused. Also I'm pretty sure you don't use an anvil and hammer to put a gem in a tool.

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I skimmed the Thaumcraft wiki briefly so I didn't see that. I'm not just referring to the spawn rate of the runes though I'm referring to the process it seems like too much the runes, the tree, the arcane workbench. The enchant gems idea is a lot simpler and frankly it i think its easier to understand. However I would like further elaboration on step 8 that's where I'm confused. Also I'm pretty sure you don't use an anvil and hammer to put a gem in a tool.

But I AM saying to enchant the gems. And with the arcane workbench - you will need a block for enchanting, I'm just calling it an arcane workbench instead of an enchanting table as a matter of personal taste. As for the tree, that was already suggested in another topic that gave it many other uses, I just figured that since the tree is used in RL for hermetic magic, it would be pretty cool if it was used for the TFC enchanting system - plus it would make enchanting that much harder. Enchanting SHOULD be hard in TFC, since it would be so helpful.

And with step 8, you're right, to embed a gem in hot metal you'd also need tongs. But, since you need those for basic metalworking anyway, I kinda just assumed they were included with the anvil.

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I'm aware that you meant to enchant gems, I'm just saying directly enchant gems in the enchanting table or whatever its called. There is a difference between hard and tedious the system is difficult enough already an easy enchantment can be added easily a good enchantment would require a lot of work and luck. For a basic enchantment to require a lot of work is just plain annoying. And I apologize I meant to say elaboration on step 6

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I'm aware that you meant to enchant gems, I'm just saying directly enchant gems in the enchanting table or whatever its called. There is a difference between hard and tedious the system is difficult enough already an easy enchantment can be added easily a good enchantment would require a lot of work and luck. For a basic enchantment to require a lot of work is just plain annoying. And I apologize I meant to say elaboration on step 6

Oh. well I imagined the table having a similar layout to the planning table, only you put gems in the top slot instead of paper, and get enchanted gems instead of plans when you scribe in the right rune with the dragonsblood markings. If you don't have the right gem for that type of enchant, it simply does nothing and leaves the gem and markings there.

And frankly, enchantment should be pretty endgame. I usually discourage endgame thinking at this stage because we haven't even gotten to midgame yet, but since there's already a huge topic for it I figured I'd contribute. And since it should be endgame, yes even the basic small enchantments should be rather hard to get. Just look at vanilla, you need at least 5 diamonds just to start getting enchants. Then add in the fact that TFC is all about making you work hard for your rewards, and I feel that this fits like a glove.

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Gems are found rather easily right now if we wanted to make end game make gems harder to find. I think gems are easy to find for a reason. Low level enchants should be weaker than i mentioned at first but accessible. The diamonds are still necessary as you still need to make the enchanting table. However I think bioxx isn't going to make diamonds end game but rather move them too midgame.

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But If the rune clusters are that rare, that will make enchanting so difficult that it will be a waste of time.

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Once you have your enchanted gem, you can place it in an item in the same way you make double ingots: in the anvil.

I think that someone will remember where's the quote from -if not, go to page 1 and read the first post...-. Taking a look to what you guys had already said, i can see i didn't thinked well about how to place the enchanted gems in items. So~... let me try again:

Once you have your enchanted gem, in order to place them in an item, you need to get it in a forge/fireplace until it is close to become liquid -try not to lose your item...-. While it hots up, go to your scribing table and try to create a brand new plan: a gem slot plan. Place it in your anvil, as well as the item. Every enchantable item can be used with the gem slot plan, this will make some space for placing the gem. Once you got it -something a little difficult...-, hot up again the item to the same point, and THEN go on as i wrote in the first post. You can use the gem slot plan again with the item, but there's a chance of breaking the gem -or the item itself...-.

Okay lot of disagreement here however your ideas are all very similar as far as I can tell I will try to write one idea that ties them all together. Step 1, enchant gem, the type of gem (agate, opal, etc.) determines which set of enchantments are available (ruby = fire), the quality will determine the level of the enchanting (flawed = II) (possibly a chance system instead, so flawed could be V but exquisite have a far better chance of it). So now we have for instance a flawed ruby which is enchanted with Fire II. Step 2 we fuse the gem with the tool in some magical way and if the enchantments are too much for the tool it will destroy itself. For instance a stone sword couldn't handle Fire V but a Rose Gold sword could handle one and if you get lucky maybe another V of some type. Finally, Step 3, you use the tool each set would act differently mattering on what it was fused to like a Fire 1 on a pickaxe could autosmelt mined material sometimes on the other hand if it was on a sword it could light an enemy on fire or on a helmet it could prevent some damage given by fire.

So to recap, enchant gem in enchanting table, fuse enchanted gem to tool, use tool in the specific way it was designed.

Edit: sorry for the edit here i didn't see the above post. But i think that (the rune system) is a little over the top the whole enchanting thing will be most likely a small side attraction not the ferris wheel (weird analogy but you know what i mean). This mod is not about that at all the system replacing it should just be so it fits with TFC not Thaumcraft it wouldn't be a bad idea to suggest it to Xenophobe Thaumcraft is yet to have an enchantment system.

Lol, Thaumcraft is now officially the first mod i first found on it's own wiki. I didn't even know it existed.

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Gems are found rather easily right now if we wanted to make end game make gems harder to find. I think gems are easy to find for a reason. Low level enchants should be weaker than i mentioned at first but accessible. The diamonds are still necessary as you still need to make the enchanting table. However I think bioxx isn't going to make diamonds end game but rather move them too midgame.

Exactly. Technically you can even find diamonds the very moment you craft a stone pick, so to make enchantment endgame it should be made to require significantly more than diamonds. Honestly I'm convinced I'm on the right track here if only because the only single argument I'm hearing is that 'it's too hard', which is the exact goal I was shooting for.

But If the rune clusters are that rare, that will make enchanting so difficult that it will be a waste of time.

Not when enchantments make things significantly easier on you. It's like getting steel - you exert a huge amount of effort now, so that you won't need so much effort in the future.

Lol, Thaumcraft is now officially the first mod i first found on it's own wiki. I didn't even know it existed.

Lol you should look into it, it's one of the most visually impressive mods I've ever run across

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To Peffern: Just a point not saying gems should be rare

To lordhaiv: I agree with the above the mod is a ton of fun and looks awesome.

To EternalUndeath: I'm saying enchantment should be midgame. And once more there is a difference between challengingly hard and annoyingly hard. If the work is almost harder than the outcome then it's not worth it especially if its complicated and takes awhile to understand. If it is just a quality = outcome ratio of gems that's easy to understand, an adventure to find good gems, and a gamble to get a good outcome. That sounds hard enough for me. The binding (for the record I don't know how the binding will work, however I like idea of making it harder to put better enchantments into a tool) adds another gamble, will you try to add just one more enchantment and risk the loss of everything or will you play it safe and never gain the rewards of an additional enchantment. Simple, fun, good effort in to outcome ratio, and the gambling will be suspenseful.

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There's a difference between working hard(making steel which isn't that hard) and annoying hard( searching the world) plus I have already generated my world within a 1000block radius looking for a desert so it would be an extra pain to find runes.

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To EternalUndeath: I'm saying enchantment should be midgame. And once more there is a difference between challengingly hard and annoyingly hard. If the work is almost harder than the outcome then it's not worth it especially if its complicated and takes awhile to understand. If it is just a quality = outcome ratio of gems that's easy to understand, an adventure to find good gems, and a gamble to get a good outcome. That sounds hard enough for me. The binding (for the record I don't know how the binding will work, however I like idea of making it harder to put better enchantments into a tool) adds another gamble, will you try to add just one more enchantment and risk the loss of everything or will you play it safe and never gain the rewards of an additional enchantment. Simple, fun, good effort in to outcome ratio, and the gambling will be suspenseful.

I suppose this is just a difference of opinion then, since I firmly believe that enchanting should be difficult endgame work, with powerful enchants to offer sufficient reward

There's a difference between working hard(making steel which isn't that hard) and annoying hard( searching the world) plus I have already generated my world within a 1000block radius looking for a desert so it would be an extra pain to find runes.

In a case like yours, you should feel justified in just looking up the rune patterns online then, since you would have 0 chance to get them otherwise. I've always said cheating is okay when, and only when, doing things legit is literally not possible.

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Perhaps there would be some way to make it so only weak enchantment could be made midgame and the strong ones could be endgame. I think that is kind of already true with the binding system you need good metals to hold good enchantments. Other ideas, multiple tiers of enchantment tables, multiple tiers of binding sites (anvils maybe), open for my ideas there. And it doesn't make sense that you should have to look up all the combos for the runes that would be annoying and as you said literally not possible. Therefore the reason why this system should be simple and require no extensive research. A question also for your system would all gems be equal?

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Perhaps there would be some way to make it so only weak enchantment could be made midgame and the strong ones could be endgame. I think that is kind of already true with the binding system you need good metals to hold good enchantments. Other ideas, multiple tiers of enchantment tables, multiple tiers of binding sites (anvils maybe), open for my ideas there. And it doesn't make sense that you should have to look up all the combos for the runes that would be annoying and as you said literally not possible. Therefore the reason why this system should be simple and require no extensive research. A question also for your system would all gems be equal?

1) tiered tables and such would use up quite a lot of block IDs, my way is more conservative on the item coding - all it requires is one extra block ID and a minor change to the anvil GUI

2) it's no harder than getting the plans for the metal tools - you can get them in 3 ways: just guessing based on the general shape of the tool (the one you're really supposed to use first), having someone else teach it to you, or looking it up online (cheating). Runes would be the same way - you can either find them in world (like you're supposed to at first), learn them from someone else, or cheat and look it up. I'm not suggesting some sort of thaumcraft-like deal where you can't use it unless you've found it properly. I'm only suggesting an in-world generation of the runes so that players can have a legitimate means of figuring them out without resorting to checking online like everyone does for the tool plans anyway.

And my idea for the gems isn't too different from everyone elses - different types can hold different enchants (rubys can be given fire aspect, fire protection, etc...), and the quality of the gem determines the power of the enchant.

So let's say in my system you figure out the fire aspect rune - you draw it out on the table and stick an emerald in the slot - no dice, nothing happens. So you put in a flawless ruby instead, and now a flawless ruby of Fire Aspect II is sitting in the output slot waiting to be used to forge a shiny new weapon

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there would be a lot of runes/gems you would have to be extremely lucky to get both and then you can only use one enchantment that is very specific. Not too mention that without cheating it is almost impossible to guess what rune makes what enchantment unless there is a label underneath. This once more is far too big, and far too annoyingly difficult. I do agree however that tier benches would take up too many block ID's I suggest either anvil or a single bench that could be added too but still uses one block ID.

Edit: Just though of this how about a structure like a shrine or something it could be added to, in order to make the next tier

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Not too mention that without cheating it is almost impossible to guess what rune makes what enchantment unless there is a label underneath.

So... pretty much EXACTLY like the tool head plans that are already in the game. I'm really not seeing the problem here.

And no, just one rune per enchantment type (runes would NOT indicate level), and each gem could potentially carry up to 3-4 different kinds of enchant (not at the same time, obviously)

I like your idea of a shrine tho... I'm thinking the bench could be like the bloomery block, where you can't actually place it unless it detects the right structure present around it.

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So... pretty much EXACTLY like the tool head plans that are already in the game. I'm really not seeing the problem here.

And no, just one rune per enchantment type (runes would NOT indicate level), and each gem could potentially carry up to 3-4 different kinds of enchant (not at the same time, obviously)

I like your idea of a shrine tho... I'm thinking the bench could be like the bloomery block, where you can't actually place it unless it detects the right structure present around it.

I think he means that it's almost imposible to know which gems can get which enchantments. Some of them are obvious, i think -ruby>fire, sapphire>water-, but what kind of enchantments and why can an agate get?. Either bsb tried to say that, or i'm the one confused ._.

Something i just thinked about is some kind of "secret" bonus: If the enchantment table is struck by a lighting, you get -in my own example- higher chances of actually getting a high-level enchantment on a gem, or even two.

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Lightning strikes affecting enchanting = awesome. I want to wire a lightning rod to the top of my house. Maybe the lightning is a key ingredient in enchanting.

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I think he means that it's almost imposible to know which gems can get which enchantments. Some of them are obvious, i think -ruby>fire, sapphire>water-, but what kind of enchantments and why can an agate get?. Either bsb tried to say that, or i'm the one confused ._.

Something i just thinked about is some kind of "secret" bonus: If the enchantment table is struck by a lighting, you get -in my own example- higher chances of actually getting a high-level enchantment on a gem, or even two.

Well that part of trial and error guesswork wouldn't be too hard. Scribe the rune, and just stick one of every kind of gem you have in the table. If one gives you something in the output slot, that kind of gem can carry that enchant. Pretty simple really.

Lightning strikes affecting enchanting = awesome. I want to wire a lightning rod to the top of my house. Maybe the lightning is a key ingredient in enchanting.

Erm... awesome yes, but I think enchanting should be performable at any time you choose, as long as you have the right ingredients. Getting the resources for it should be random - choosing when you use them shouldn't. I agree with haiv that maybe a 'charged' table would have a chance of maybe giving you an enchant above the tier you normally would, but making it required? Not feelin' it. I mean, not only are thunderstorms very very rare... but what happens when you build in a desert?

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To lordhaiv and Roguehydra: I like the lightning rod but i think it should just make some kind of bonus not a necessity

To EternalUndeath: I understand it works like the toolheads but those have a shape so you could guess rather easily. On the other hand how are you suppose to guess what shape an enchantment is. Ignore the second part of the sentence I wrote that really weird. Sorry for the confusion. I just think that a rune addition would serve almost no real purpose besides a longer far more boring research project/tedious annoyance. It doesn't fit well with TFC. Why add more stuff we don't need, it's like washing soap, it serves no real purpose besides take up your time.

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If the enchantment rune patterns are lookupable online, that what is to stop anyone from just looking them all up, instead of going for the runes. If it's going to be all thaumcraft quaesitum style, where you HAVE to research it first, then looking it up won't help. If it isn't going to be like that, then it will just be like crafting recipes, everyone will just look them up. That's why the randomness should be in the enchant itself, not in "discovering" it. no way to cheat.

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