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mharkan

[Rule #4] Additional Fuels for Lanterns

95 posts in this topic

Some additional fuels for lanterns might be a good idea.

 

TFC has a couple of other flammable fluids, such as some of the alcohols. Perhaps they wouldn't burn as bright or for as long, seeing as how an alcohol flame is pretty dim

 

 

Also, corn oil is made in much the same way as olive oil. Perhaps that could be an option as well.

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I think scouring the world for a particular fruit tree is a bit too difficult for something as seemingly important as lanterns, but alcohol is way too easy. I'd like to see a crop-based alternative like corn or soybean oil(I neglected to research the process, its pretty obviously outside the scope of tfc), with a worse ratio of food input to oil output, so that olive oil is the preferred solution but an alternative is at least possible

 

edit: I can't believe I didn't think about it when I first replied, but animals could drop some fat in addition to meat bone and hide, and the fat could be turned into oil. That would be way less sustainable than olive oil but far more widely obtainable, which is a nice balance

Edited by nickasummers
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Also, corn oil is made in much the same way as olive oil. Perhaps that could be an option as well.

 

You mean by smashing?

Corn Oil is made by grinding the germ of corn. Olive oil is made by grinding the entire olive.

 

Assuming you have good quality corn and olives the yields by weight are:

 

38% for olives

 

2.8% for corn

 

Olives have over 13 times more oil yield per pound than corn. Olives also require far less processing than corn does for oil production. If you were to implement corn oil as a possible lamp fuel you would have to first implement a way to separate the germs from the starchy bit of the kernels. Or you could simplify it and have a very low oil yield that consumes the other 97.2% of the corn that is not oil. Seems like a bit of a hassle to destroy 160 oz of corn for only 4.48 oz (by weight) of oil.

 

In conclusion, I don't think that corn oil is a believable option for TFC because corn oil is a modern product that would require a large amount of labor to produce by hand and was not historically used as a lamp fuel.

 

Perhaps rendering tallow from animal fat would be an acceptable option? Tallow was used historically as a fuel for lamps. Perhaps it could be added as a drop from animals along with their meat?

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> ''animals could drop some fat in addition to meat bone and hide''

To balance out torches, the recipe could be altered slightly; involving the soaking of straw, or some other form of kindling, in fat from animals.

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I think scouring the world for a particular fruit tree is a bit too difficult for something as seemingly important as lanterns, but alcohol is way too easy. I'd like to see a crop-based alternative like corn or soybean oil, with a worse ratio of food input to oil output, so that olive oil is the preferred solution but an alternative is at least possible

 

edit: I can't believe I didn't think about it when I first replied, but animals could drop some fat in addition to meat bone and hide, and the fat could be turned into oil. That would be way less sustainable than olive oil but far more widely obtainable, which is a nice balance

 

This is how soybean oil is produced according to wikipedia:

 

Production

To produce soybean oil, the soybeans are cracked, adjusted for moisture content, heated to between 60 and 88 ºC (140–190 °F), rolled into flakes, and solvent-extracted with hexanes. The oil is then refined, blended for different applications, and sometimes hydrogenated. Soybean oils, both liquid and partially hydrogenated are sold as "vegetable oil," or are ingredients in a wide variety of processed foods. Most of the remaining residue (soybean meal) is used as animal feed.

 

 

 

Would you please think a few moments about fuels that would actually fit into the idea of TFC before suggesting fuels that were not produced in the era that TFC is portrayed?

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I like the idea of animal fat, as it was the first to be used in human history. It has several advantages, it is realistic, believable, and in  the time frame of tfc. Preferably I would prefer to have a rudimentary kind of oil lamp, one that was not dependent on metals, since the oil lamp was extensively used by pre-historic people.  

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I like the idea of animal fat, as it was the first to be used in human history. It has several advantages, it is realistic, believable, and in  the time frame of tfc. Preferably I would prefer to have a rudimentary kind of oil lamp, one that was not dependent on metals, since the oil lamp was extensively used by pre-historic people.  

 

Agreed.

Lindybeige has some interesting videos about torch use.

 

Indoorshttps://youtu.be/HQZqbGME5HY

 

Outdoors

https://youtu.be/jiuHr5YVJBI

 

Alternatives

https://youtu.be/LMhMrnWslQs

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Not in the TFC Time frame, soybean is a modern oil.

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I think scouring the world for a particular fruit tree is a bit too difficult for something as seemingly important as lanterns, but alcohol is way too easy.

 

The alcohols available in TFC would all make for terrible fuel sources as-is: you'd have distill them first. Building a distillation apparatus should sufficiently increase the difficulty.

 

But I agree with others who have suggested animal fats, particularly since they were the first oils humans used in lamps.

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Perhaps rendering tallow from animal fat would be an acceptable option? Tallow was used historically as a fuel for lamps. Perhaps it could be added as a drop from animals along with their meat?

Tallow could also be used for candles, possibly with a straw wick for a basic candle and string/wool thread for a better one?

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I would love the idea of using animal fat, specially if come together with a clay oil lamp.

When you consider the process to make anything out of clay in the game, you can hardly call it OP.

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Clay lamps could be carried in the inventory and give off light around you, maybe in the hotbar or a special slot. Your thoughts?

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Corn oil should be another option indeed.And animal fat should be too, but the scarcity of it -due to animals being killed not so often- should be taken into account to set the usefulness of the fat as a burning material

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The choice of olive oil and lava as the primary fuels has everything to do with balance. Animal fat was not considered due to how readily available it is in the game. The amount of fat that you would get from a single large cow would likely be more than enough to fuel multiple lamps for a few in-game years.

 

Lamps are a mid to late-game luxury item. They will not be made any easier, or else we might as well get rid of the torch mechanic entirely.

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What if pine resin is used? It is a super flammable substance!

Edited by PaoloEmilio
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Flammable =/= good lamp fuel. Gasoline is flammable, but you wouldn't want to fill your lamp with it.

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Pine resin would be better for torches, as it does not flow or soak into a wick. Possibly using fat just for candles? They could be an item that is put in a candlestick and gradually wears down until nothing is left.

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I'll state it once more.

 

Lamps are a luxury item. We will not implement any fuel for them that takes away this luxury status and makes them easily usable by any player who has simply entered the copper age.

 

The creation of lamps is not expensive, you can make them on nothing more than a copper anvil, and the metals they are made out of (with the exception of blue steel) are easily obtainable at the near the start of the game.

 

The fuel is what makes them luxury. The fuel in the lamps put them behind the wrought iron barrier, since players need at least wrought iron to make the hoppers to squeeze the olives into oil.

 

There will not be any changes made to the lamp system to implement fuel that can be created before the wrought iron stage.

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Lighting is a basic necessity and a nuisance if the game turns dark frequently (because torches extinguish over time in the default game). The idea of a luxury item is nice, but should not be lanterns imo. If I were to play TFC again from scratch, i'll just end up using Jack O Lanterns again, if they are still in the game.

Edited by Terex
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How exactly do you consider lighting a basic necessity? You can increase the game brightness for increased visibility, and lighting isn't the key role in mob spawning in TFC.

 

You can also always just turn the whole thing off in the config.

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Of course, i can tweak stuff as you suggest but i don't want to render useless a nice item like a lantern by brightening up the game so night becomes day. The decorations mod adds lanterns that are alcohol-based and if i ran a poll, most people would probably prefer this version or this thread would not exist. On the whole, TFC devs do a great job, but sometimes i feel already existing implementations are ignored and another approach is used that doesn't correspond to the community's expectations. I'm not trying to argue, but anyway, on the topic of the lantern that is my 2 cents.

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The lanterns/decorations addon were not created by the TFC devs, and had absolutely no influence from the opinion of the TFC devs on it's development. All balancing decision in those addon are based 100% on the opinion of the authors.

 

The lanterns/decorations addon are by no means believable. Alcohol is not a fuel that can be used to create any sort of decent visible light without the risk of being essentially a molotov cocktail. We ignored the "existing implementation" because we did not develop it, and we did not agree with how it was developed or felt that it properly fit into TFC the way we wanted lamps to. If we have felt it was a correct fit, then we would have implemented it in a much more similar way.

 

Consider for a moment, would this topic even exist if the lanterns/decorations addon did not?

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Not in the TFC Time frame, soybean is a modern oil.

 

Etymology . Since its first appearance in the 11th century AD, the Chinese term for "soy oil" has been written with the two characters meaning "bean" and "oil." Prior to the 1970s the Wade-Giles system romanized the standard Mandarin pronunciation of this term as tou-yu (pronounced dou-you; "bean oil") or huang tou-yu("yellow bean oil"). Thereafter the new pinyin system romanized the term as douyou .

http://www.soyinfocenter.com/HSS/soybean_crushing1.php

 

The first use of the word "soybean" in U.S. lit­erature was in 1804. However, it is thought that soybean was first introduced into the American Colonies in 1765 as "Chinese vetches" .

http://agron-www.agron.iastate.edu/Courses/agron212/Readings/Soy_history.htm

 

 

That seems to be TFC time frame to me. Of course, you can say it's in China and TFC is based on more north american things.... then soybean oil existed before the introduction of soybeans in america.

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TFC is based on european/western history through about the 14th century. Your quote proves that not only is it at the very edge of the TFC timeframe if TFC was based on eastern culture, but that it's completely out of the timeframe since it's based on western culture.

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