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mharkan

[Rule #4] Additional Fuels for Lanterns

95 posts in this topic

I agree that having a liquid fuel that lasts so long should take a lot of experience/luck to get, and should be a late game item.  I do feel that TFC lacks a mid game light source, that last between 48 and 2000 hours by default. You might not need light as much if you fiddle with settings, but lighting is still a psycological desire, whether it's effective or not. In a survival situation I would be trying to figure out better lighting long before playing with bloomeries. Candles were used in Europe pre-Ancient Rome. They would take planning to create and use, made from tallow or beeswax.  Ideally the candle holder should be able to be made from clay, but you could require it to be made of metal if it made more sense for balance reasons. A lit candle might last ~200 in game hours by default, leaving a very good incentive to try for lamps.. Better for permanent structures, it would require some time and labor input (finding bees and getting beeswax or finding, killing and rendering fat from animals) so it couldn't be used on day one. Torches would remain more practical for traveling and temporary light sources.

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TFC is based on european/western history through about the 14th century. Your quote proves that not only is it at the very edge of the TFC timeframe if TFC was based on eastern culture, but that it's completely out of the timeframe since it's based on western culture.

 

One more quote:

Soyfoods arrived in Europe before soybeans, before the earliest reference to soybeans, and thus before it was realized that they were made from soybeans. The first?? soyfood to arrive in Europe was Japanese shoyu (soy sauce); in 1670 Dutch traders started to import it to France at the request of Louis XIV, who used it as a seasoning at his sumptuous palace banquets (Tamura and Hirano 1971).

http://www.soyinfocenter.com/HSS/europe1.php

 

 

My quotes proof that soybean oil date from 11th century in China, and that Soybean where introduced in Europe in the 17th century and in US in the 19th century from Asia.

 

So we are facing two options.

The use of soy, including for the production of oil date from the 11th century (right timeframe) in eastern culture (wrong culture)

The use of soy, and we will assume of production of oil, date from the 17-19th century (wrong time frame) in western culture (right culture).

 

My point is that soybeans as a thing is out of the TFC based culture inside of the TFC time frame.

 

So, should we remove soybean from TFC, or add soybean oil to be consistent.

 

(I'm sorry, but I hate the argument "it's out of TFC time frame / culture, so we will not implement". It's used when it's convenient, and ignored when it's convenient. We can discuss it elsewhere, but that's not the question here, we are talking about lantern fuel and about soybean oil).

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I agree with Atharsea. The current light sources seem to be very 'all or nothing' in it's ways. You either get a stone-age(actually more of a pre-stone age) torch that lasts about two days, or a iron-age lantern that lasts 80-something days.

And while lighting might be 'necessary' it is something very desirable. Sure you can increase game brightness, but there is something about walking into a lit house, or wandering back after a long day's work and seeing the light shining through the windows at your house that gives you a good feeling. Without lighting, I can still see everything, sure, but it leaves a very empty and cold feeling that I don't really enjoy.

 

A middle ground between those two would be very nice, and by making the process of turning fat into tallow/rendering beeswax need (pre-iron age) metal, it could make a nice bridge between two light sources.

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I don't like the idea of extinguishing torches because it has a huge downside, you enter to your big house and a creeper explodes it, as it spawned inside.

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I agree with introducing more light sources.

I understand that torches are a mechanic introduced by Minecraft, but in essence it is not believable.

Since torches go out people stop doing the torch forest.

What I would like is to have clay lamps, they were used for thousands of years, since stone age to be exact, the best would be if they used animal fat, they would be believable and in no way cheep.

Is not like anyone is going to waist resources to create hundreds of clay lamps. they should last half the time of  lantern.

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I don't like the idea of extinguishing torches because it has a huge downside, you enter to your big house and a creeper explodes it, as it spawned inside.

 

Do you seriously still not understand that torches burning out has absolutely nothing to do with mob spawning in TFC? TFC has a spawn protection system. This system means that mobs won't spawn in certain areas, even if all the torches burned out in that area and it is completely dark. So no, a creeper blowing up in your base is not a downside of torches burning out.

 

I agree with introducing more light sources.

I understand that torches are a mechanic introduced by Minecraft, but in essence it is not believable.

Since torches go out people stop doing the torch forest.

What I would like is to have clay lamps, they were used for thousands of years, since stone age to be exact, the best would be if they used animal fat, they would be believable and in no way cheep.

Is not like anyone is going to waist resources to create hundreds of clay lamps. they should last half the time of  lantern.

 

If clay lamps were to be implemented, and I'm not saying they will, the would probably last for maybe a month or two. Lanterns last for 10 months, there's no way we'd allow something as early as pre-stone age last for 5 months.

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I think it would be pretty trivial for some people who know how to make TFC addons to code additional lantern fuels or add clay lamps, if we ask them nicely. Kitty is happy the original game remains the way she wants it, and everyone else will be happy we can use more lighting options early to mid-game with the addon. Only then, "new lamps...hopefully appease some of the crybabies" here :D

Edited by Terex
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"Here have the lamps you wanted."

"Give us more"

I know that isn't really the thinking if the people posting here, that you are just making requests you feel will improve the game you love. However having been on the other side I can help think it feels like that at times for devs.

I hope that perhaps Aleksey_t will revisit the infinite lights of his lanterns to be more in line with new addition in TFC. For my pack when I can update to 79.17 I will reduce the brightness of the addon lanterns to encourage use of TFC lanterns without making them useless.

Last point is that people bring up point of coming home to a lit home and that the lamps to so are historically accurate and believable. I'm all for more build options however the one point I'd make is that no person in that era would purposely leave a lamp on when they are not there. Not only would it waste extremely valuable fuel, but it would be a huge fire risk. The arguements are really about a thetics, which is a fine reason, so just stick to that.

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Man, I'm just glad Kitty and bunsan are nice enough to engage in this discussion. I know the felling, you work hard and deliver something ( Something that they have been asking for a long Time), and you think OK now they will be happy instead all you hear is people asking for more.

So Let me just be Clear, Thank you very much for the lanterns.

I also have to agree that this whole discussion is about aesthetics. Torches just do not look natural, nor are they believable, although as bunsan pointed out no one is going to leave open flames inside an empty house.

The problem is that torches are a default minecraft  feature. And I also have to admit that we do not actually need light in minecraft specially with tfc, we can just tweak the brightness, but that would take away all the immersion, Since I have for so long asked for more features available in stone age, hence the clay lamp.

I will leave this discussion now. Insisting on the subject will not make the Dev's create an item just because I want it, also I have used my best arguments.

Once again Thank you for this wonderful Mod and thanks for this forum that give us the opportunity to express our selves. 

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IF the developers are going to consider adding another light source (and it is perfectly within their right NOT to do so) I personally would be fine with the candles mentioned in one of my previous posts. If not, I'm OK with that.

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is there a way to ask Zerren, and borrow him his graphical work for the lantern to remplace the actual one?

http://i.imgur.com/uTty9HM.png.

His work was very impressive at time.

Is the actual lantern his definitive skin?

Edited by landryx
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is there a way to ask Zerren, and borrow him his graphical work for the lantern to remplace the actual one?

http://i.imgur.com/uTty9HM.png.

His work was very impressive at time.

Is the actual lantern his definitive skin?

I agree,the new lamps are great, but their model is a bit ungraceful.

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I agree,the new lamps are great, but their model is a bit ungraceful.

 

That's because our model actually reflects what lamps looked like in the proper time period. The lanterns on the other hand are a much more modern version of a light source.

 

 

Seriously guys, we work super hard to give you the lamps that you have been begging for since the torch mechanic was first implement, and all you do is complain?

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IF the developers are going to consider adding another light source (and it is perfectly within their right NOT to do so) I personally would be fine with the candles mentioned in one of my previous posts. If not, I'm OK with that.

  ^

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Seriously guys, we work super hard to give you the lamps that you have been begging for since the torch mechanic was first implement, and all you do is complain?

I did not want to complain.

 

I was super happy when I read, lamps were added. And I respect the work you do for this mod .

 

Thank You

 

But this is still the suggestions forum, where everyone should be able to say what is on their minds, without upsetting the developers.

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But this is still the suggestions forum, where everyone should be able to say what is on their minds, without upsetting the developers.

 

This is a suggestions forum that is run by the developers. You do not have the right to post whatever you want here and be exempt from upsetting the people who created the forum in the first place.

 

All we ask for is a bit of common courtesy. If we implement a new mechanic, we ask that you actually try it out for a little bit, instead of immediately create a post talking about how you don't like it before enough time has even passed since release for you to actually give it a shot.

 

Would you go into a fancy restaurant, beg and plead for a specific dish that will take the chef lots of time and effort to complete, and then immediately start pointing out what is wrong and what should be changed as soon as it's placed down in front of you before you even taste it? Would you do so if you aren't even paying the chef for the food in the first place?

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In the grand scheme of things there is an understanding that the player community is passionate about TFC and that statements are nearly always coming from the best of intentions. However there are ways and times to make constructive criticism that is positive for the devs and will be well received. Then there is the more "what have you done for me lately" and "you did it wrong the right way is" criticism.

 

You have to understand that this thread popped up soon after the release and the style it has been done was not as constructive as it could have been. It really gives the sense that no matter what the devs do and how they try and provide the community what they desire without compromising the vision they have for the mod they will be met with complaints, criticism and a lot of "the proper way to do or improve this is". I already pointed out the duplicitous nature of the "realism" argument being used here. In my experience the best way to introduce new features like this is in a conservative manner. Introduce, see how it works then expand it. This is especially true for conversion hardmode mods like TFC. If you introduce something and it turns out to make things a bit too easy you will face serious backlash if you update to make it harder and more balanced in your vision. It is easier to give than take away.

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I really do not understand what the complain is about. People are comparing oranges too apples. Lanterns and Lamps are 2 completely different things. The Dev's have added oil lamps, they are not lanterns.

They look beautiful.

Posted Image

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yeah those are beautiful you're right!

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Yep, looking pretty sweet. I could still go for some candles, though. :D

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Ok, I have to admit, they are beautiful. The main/only reason I called them ungreaceful was, because I was to narrow minded to think of a way, to stick them to a wall.

The thing with the fenceposts actually is pretty neat.

No I can not say anything against the lamps any more :D

Good Job!

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haha this suggestion tread should be called the big thank you tread instead.

I think devs are actually lacking of compliments for their work lol.

 

 

I've the feeling of walking on eggs. ;)

 

good job to you all anyway lol

Edited by landryx
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Seriously guys, we work super hard to give you the lamps that you have been begging for since the torch mechanic was first implement, and all you do is complain?

 

I'm not complaining. I like the new lamps just fine. But I find the discussion of alternate fuels and how to incorporate them into TFC interesting.

 

Besides, it's the essential nature of a "Suggestions" forum that people will focus on what they would like to see changed, not sing the praises of the bits that they are happy with.

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Besides, it's the essential nature of a "Suggestions" forum that people will focus on what they would like to see changed, not sing the praises of the bits that they are happy with.

 

And there's nothing wrong with that. But there is a polite and impolite way to say what you would like to see changed.

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I really do not understand what the complain is about. People are comparing oranges too apples. Lanterns and Lamps are 2 completely different things. The Dev's have added oil lamps, they are not lanterns.

They look beautiful.

 

 

Ya, they do look great great.

Of course, the lanterns from the different mods who made them are also nice, but these are just two different things.

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