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mharkan

[Rule #4] Additional Fuels for Lanterns

95 posts in this topic

And there's nothing wrong with that. But there is a polite and impolite way to say what you would like to see changed.

Like the difference between "Me want _____. You give now." and "I would greatly appreciate it if you would be so kind as to add candles to the game".

And no, I'm totally not using subliminal messaging by putting the word 

candles in bold.

Twice.

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I think the lamps are great. I love the hopper mechanic and I think the use of olive oil is perfectly believable and fitting for the game. My first thought though, and the reason I thought people were going to be asking for more fuels, was that it's sort of hit-or-miss. The reality is, if you find just one olive tree, you just need a little luck (2 saplings drop) + time and you're on your way to an infinite (and very cheap) fuel source for lamps. If you don't find an olive tree, or if that tree drops zero saplings, well, get working on that blue steel.

 

That's a perfectly valid design choice for the devs but I can see how it disappoints people. Luxury item or not, the lamps are a highly-desired item, yet getting them is somewhat based on luck.  Adding another option, such as tallow/lard, might take away the binary aspect of either having or not having fuel. Couldn't it still be made expensive enough to render that it doesn't upset the balance?

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That's one of the reasons I like the idea of clay lamps the burn animal fat. It would be a mid game thing, because you need to have enough animals to slaughter for fat and it would burn faster then the actual olive oils lamps. Another incentive is to people actually use the animals. To be honest, I usually set on warm climates and cant be bother with meat, when all I want is to make a  few sandwiches and go back to work. So I just head to the farm and harvest enough to make on bread and soy beans as protein. Oh, I will have the pig farm but is too much work if I can get the same heath with soybeans.

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Clay lamps, yes. Burning fat, not so much. Turning fat into tallow and making candles, why not? Pretty much just cook down the fat, strain it, and pour into a candle mold with a wick. Maybe make the candle mold out of a few boards and sticks, put string/wool thread/straw in a slot and put the tallow in, then wait for it to cool and take them out. Fat could be put in a vessel and heated over a fire then put into a slot in the candle mold.

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But 

 

Clay lamps, yes. Burning fat, not so much.d.

But what kind of fuel would you have in the clay lamps? Got to remember this post is about additional fuel for lamps. Also the idea of having clay lamps is to have a mid game light source that lasts longer them torches.

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Animal fat is solid unless it is heated up. Lamps are unable to heat up the reservoir enough to melt the fuel. I think that is the point he is making. That was why historically turtle and whale oil was used as it has a low melting temperature. Bird oil is a bit better, but still not practical for lamps, except for maybe the open bowl type.

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That was why historically turtle and whale oil was used as it has a low melting temperature.

O_O WHALES AND WHALING

 

THIS NEEDS TO BE A THING

 

I'MA MAKE NANTUCKET

Edited by Xenolith166
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Animal fat is solid unless it is heated up. Lamps are unable to heat up the reservoir enough to melt the fuel. I think that is the point he is making. That was why historically turtle and whale oil was used as it has a low melting temperature. Bird oil is a bit better, but still not practical for lamps, except for maybe the open bowl type.

That's exactly the kind of lamp I had in mind. Open Bowl. My idea is about a very primitive lamp, something that was used by cavemen. They actually used all sorts of utensils for that, as sea shells, shallow rocks and even wood bows. Clay was just one of the materials historically used.Yeah oils make it better, but solid fat can be used.

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Well, I can now make olive oil, which means I can make lamps that burn out. Not necessary seeing as how I've been able to make infinite lamps since shortly after they came out.

 

This was the intent of my original post. I was able to make the superior lamp far sooner than the inferior (and more interesting) version simply because of bad luck about finding an olive tree. Which is fine. I'm okay with bad luck being a thing.

 

With so many potential flammable fluids in TFC I thought it might be a good idea to discuss some.

 

Perhaps tallow could be linked to butchering skill. At low levels it yields such a small amount as to be a rather inefficient means to get light. I for one don't just kill animals until I have a stable breeding stock back at home. Which is a mid to late game situation for me.

 

Also, whaling. Yes please!

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I think when I said clay lamp, some people thought that players would have lamps on the second in game day. That was never my idea. You cannot have a sustainable production of animal fat until you are established, No one is going to waist animals like that.It just bothers me that so much is dependent on metals. I want more things to be available in stone age. Of course the metal lamp with olive oil will always be superior than a clay lamp burning animal fat.

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The reason that we put so many things behind the metal wall is because otherwise many of our players will otherwise rush through them and get them ASAP. Players do waste animals like that and go on killing sprees their first few days, especially if they don't plan on settling in that area, and are going to keep moving.

 

If all it takes is clay, a firepit, and to slaughter some animals, I guarantee it would be something that a good chunk of players would have by the end of the first in-game month. There has to be some sort of bottleneck or wall in place to separate any longer lasting light sources from torches. Killing animals is not a bottleneck or a wall.

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I agree Kitty. I seen it happening all the time in the server, the players just go and kill all the animals in the server. Sometimes I wish it was even harder to get to metal age, but at the same time that we could survive without it. But that is out of the scope of this tread.

In the end I am forced to agree with you, given the way the mod plays today, It makes no sense in adding any other longer lasting light source that could be obtained before metal.

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I read "here are some lanterns, guys" and was overjoyed.

"You'll need olive oil to run them" had me disappointed.

"Oh and by the way - you need wrought iron to be able to get it" had me horrified...

 

But yes, after a bit of thought, I agree that some kind of "wall" (as Kitty put it) is not unreasonable for a light source that will burn for a long time, given what appear to be the current thoughts on lighting within the TFC staff.

 

From the screenshots shown earlier in this thread, I really like the graphic - especially on top of fence posts - looks like a glowing lantern from the old films (haven't had enough game time to make on yet).

 

Thanks for the enhancement!

(and for the only mod to MC that I play these days)

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I do think that there need to be more options for fueling lamps. Lava is such a ridiculous end-game (It takes me and 2 others multiple months to reach the Blue Steel tier) and olives are very hit-or-miss. What if animal fat was an option but it had to processed in a way that require wrought iron or even steel? Suppose it had to be cleaned or refined idk I'm just thinking out loud.

 

EDIT: more thoughts. The metal wall for me is not nearly as big a deal as the exploration wall. The way I like to play I like to explore for a while and then settle down, and I don't like having to find specific crops because it is too binary. Either you find jute and can carry a donkey full of items, or you can't. The olive-oil wall is much more restrictive than the wrought-iron wall. That's why I think an alternative fuel source is needed. Not because it's too dark in the stone age.

Edited by Peffern
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Ok, so candles are out. Non-metal lanterns are out. Alcohol burners are out. Torches GO out. What other lighting options are there?

 

Let's look at what we currently have as fuel sources in TFC:

-Ore -> Coal

-Trees -> Wood or Charcoal

-Food -> Olive Oil

 

And what fuels could potentially be in the game?

-Animals -> Fat/Tallow/Wax

-Trees -> Bark/Sap/Wax

-Food -> Alcohols/Oils

 

Ok, so that's a lot of sources we could use for lighting. Let's get some more details to see what's actually feasible.

Ore

Currently coal is only (afaik) used for metallurgy. Coal could potentially be used in longer-than-torch burning low-light Braziers for use in houses without making embers that catch your house on fire.

 

Trees

We already use wood (sticks) for torches and (logs) for campfires, so it would be redundant to make another directly wood-fueled light source.

 

Food

Olive Oil is difficult to find, so it should be reserved for the the high tier metal Lanterns.

 

 

That's the current scenario. There is only room to add a light source based on Coal or Charcoal. But could we add any of the items in the second list to make a new light source?

Animals

Fat and Tallow is basically out of the question due to animal killing in multiplayer, but Lanolin from sheep's wool is a candlemaking wax and only requires the harvesting of wool. As a bonus, Sheep already exist so it would be simple to add a new species which produces sufficient Lanolin (and fewer Wool Fibers as a result). One Merino sheep can produce 250-300ml of lanolin wax (from Wikipedia page for lanolin) using modern processes. Because it requires animal husbandry, this means Lanolin would be securely cemented as a mid-game resource.

 

Trees

I recall in another post someone mentioning the ability to recover Bark from trees when making planks. Bark could be used as both a mid-game roofing material and as a fuel source for Braziers. Resin could be collected from Bark and used to make longer-lasting Torches, and even to reinforce crafted Bows (if/when they are implemented).

Certain trees such as palm trees can produce wax, in case of palm trees the leaves are beaten to remove the wax. Palm trees could be found closer to the equator. There is even a species known as the tallow tree.

 

Food

This is where a lot of hidden potential lies. A variety of fruits, for example Lemons, and even flowers have oils in them that can be either manually extracted or distilled. Shrubs such as Candelilla can contain wax on their leaves or on berries. Alcohol barrels could be loaded with oil-containing plant matter to make alcohol/oil infusions that could be burned.

 

 

Conclusion

There's a ton of potential here, but the challenge is finding what works best with the game's balance, is easiest to implement, and what is the most enjoyable for players.

The following solutions seem to me to be the best:

-Braziers that could be loaded with a variety of fuels.

-Merino sheep can produce Lanolin Wool which can be melted down for both Wool and Lanolin Wax.

-Bark is a commonly asked for item that could be multi-use and provide a much-needed roofing option for builders.

 

 

And I'm going to throw this one out there, which has been said before, but with a new twist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diya.jpg

Clay Bowls. Place them on the ground or on a flat surface. Right click it with a String or Wool Fiber to add a wick. Right click with a piece of wax or oil or what have you, then light with a lit Torch or flint & steel. Burns dimmer than a Lantern, and is half as fuel efficient (and holds much less fuel - probably a weeks worth?)

 

Here's the twist - if you walk over it, you have a chance to knock the bowl. If that happens, the fuel is lost and you have to put more in. The wick lasts indefinitely. The lamp can be picked up but the oil is lost. Lamp is also put out if hit by inclement weather of any sort (aka outdoors)

 

My idea provides the following:

-A longer-lighting lighting option that doesn't stamp on Lanterns while being useful enough to be a step up from Torches for indoor lighting.

-A less obtrusive option than Torches for lighting indoors that enhances the nighttime experience. (torches are dangerous anyways)

-Can use wax or oil or tallow, should game balance be changed in the future.

-Another use for clay pottery (which was pretty limited)

-Another use for String

Edited by Jivix
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We already have an oil from plants, and anything other than olives wouldn't be cost effective. If you want an animal based light source, I would just use candles. It's a lot easier to make a candle than it is to boil down wool. Did people even use sheep oil in TFC's time frame? I can't find anything on the web about that. Stupid Google. I do like the brazier idea, though. I think it'd look pretty sweet.

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Forges already give off light.... and you can throw a grill on them to make them look extra fancy.

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Although they do burn through charcoal kinda fast, don't they? Maybe just use candles, then... :)

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I agree that animal fat would be too easy to get unless it dropped in small quantities by a specific animal (i.e. you don't really have the skill to extract all the fat, and not all fat is created equal). I personally don't like the idea that it is only olive oil which if I spawned far north would be very tedious to find. AND on small privately run server, without Cauldron now, chunk loading causes MAJOR issues making exploration hard and aggravating. 

 

1. Introduce a new mob, the whale and have us hunt those for animal fat. not as easy as just any animal. Boil the fat to make the oil and it would last longer than torches but greatly shorter than the olive oil. Make clay lamps that would break every now and then when trying to refill. The whales could be far out in the ocean and not as close to shore as squid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_oil

 

2. Make whale oil a second choice oil to use in the metal lamps and create a new iron kettle or use the minecraft cauldron to have us boil the blubber strips down into oil. Still keeping it a luxury for the iron age but allowing for a cold climate source of oil (due to minecrafts nasty chunk loading issues). 

 

I am glad that there are lamps in the game, but was surprised it was olive oil only. That was realistically only used in the Mediterranean areas and not the northern European areas. I know there are discussions about what realism and  believability is. I also know you want a progression in the game. I am someone who likes to play TFC because it feels like a real progression through the ages so having us go whaling and make clay oil lamps would make me feel like I am progressing. 

Edited by Teagan75
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I like the brazier/candle idea as a mid-game longer-lasting light source.

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Yeah, that kind of brazier is good for cooking or heating up a room, not so much for illumination. It will give some light, but not enough for any practical purposes, In real life people would have that and a oil lamp in the same room, for doing even the most basic chores like cooking. It gives enough light for you to distinguish shapes, but that's it. 

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Might be an option to allow the forge to hold more coal or charcoal? Or pull needed fuel from the side slot automatically?

Could the rate of fuel consumption be dependent on the amount of stuff in the processing slots?

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