Content: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Background: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Pattern: Blank Waves Notes Sharp Wood Rockface Leather Honey Vertical Triangles
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mharkan

[Rule #4] Additional Fuels for Lanterns

95 posts in this topic

Ok Xenolith166, the first few times it was amusing, but now you're verging on just being spammy. If you can't actually contribute to the discussion of the suggestion and you continue to keep posting I'm going to have to give you a warning point for spamming the forum.

 

Rule #4 of the Suggestions forum, that's posted in big huge text at the very top.

 

Keep the conversation civil and on topic.

    [*]Replies that add nothing to the discussion, such as posts that say nothing more than "I like this idea!" will be deleted. Please explain why you like the idea or what things you would change and why you would change them. [*]If you have absolutely nothing to add to the discussion, but would still like to inform the author of the topic that you like his idea; simply click the "Like This" button located at the bottom right of the post.

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I just do not understand what would so bad about using animal fat for a clay lamp. Stone Age people used animal fat for light purposes with a variety of containers, made with bone, stone, shells and even wood. Candles came a lot latter.

Historically the first light source was the camp fire,  and the second was the animal fat lamp.

I agree that a lamp made of metal and using olive oil should burn longer than a rustic clay lamp burning animal fat, but it is totally believable and it would not break game balance.

People already kill animals on site in Multiplayer, either for food or for  leather, animal fat is not going to change this situation.

If killing a pig gives you meat and fat, using the same butchering skill, so the higher your skill the more fat you get.

For me is more a question of how much I dislike torches, they are not believable and I would really like to have a low end light source that could be used before metals.

As for the brazier, I see it more as a source of heat than light.

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Yeah, the braziers would purposefully provide dim light. You don't need a whole lot of light to feel more comfortable in a house, and as a bonus it would mean they wouldn't be exploited as a torch replacement.

 

As seen in this comparison of lights, the Brazier trades brightness for longer duration, but its high initial cost of Bronze would cement it as a mid-game item (and would be a fun mid-game project):

 

Torch

-Cheap Body/Fuel

-Short-Lasting

-Bright

 

Brazier

-Expensive Body, Cheap Fuel

-Medium-Lasting

-Dim

 

Lantern

-Expensive Body/Fuel

-Long-Lasting

-Bright

 

If there are still existential problems with adding Braziers, you could drop in metal bars to hold them at a certain temperature (say, Dark Red). This would allows players to use Braziers to hold bars at near-working temperature when forging items.

 

 

I just do not understand what would so bad about using animal fat for a clay lamp. Stone Age people used animal fat for light purposes with a variety of containers, made with bone, stone, shells and even wood. Candles came a lot latter.

Historically the first light source was the camp fire,  and the second was the animal fat lamp.

I agree that a lamp made of metal and using olive oil should burn longer than a rustic clay lamp burning animal fat, but it is totally believable and it would not break game balance.

People already kill animals on site in Multiplayer, either for food or for  leather, animal fat is not going to change this situation.

If killing a pig gives you meat and fat, using the same butchering skill, so the higher your skill the more fat you get.

For me is more a question of how much I dislike torches, they are not believable and I would really like to have a low end light source that could be used before metals.

As for the brazier, I see it more as a source of heat than light.

 

Animal fat would be great, but the devs fear that it will just make animals that much more quickly extinct on multiplayer servers. Until repawning animals works in a more natural way, this is the best option for the devs to reduce the gains from killing all the animals in sight. That's why I suggested the alternative of using merino sheep wool or wax-bearing plants as non-killing alternatives.

 

I hate torches too, but they work for the time being. There is no dev on earth that can re-write minecraft in one day you know :) Hopefully one day we can have our candles and eat meat too.

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From looking at the code, there is another source that can go in lamps (albeit a very difficult source). 

That other fuel:

Lava

 

Why are the fuel types all hard coded? When trying to add BC oil to the list of fuels, we basically had to remake the lamps entirely.

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No need to use a spoiler tag, it is stated explicitly on the change log that blue steel lamps can be filled with lava.

 

The fuels for lamps were hardcoded because that was the simplest implementation. We always do that first, compatibility with other mods comes later.

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As an alternative, I'm rather fond of the turning (rare with low butchery) animal fat/yarn into candles idea. However, they'd have a chance to blow out early, which could be solved by placing the candle in a protective case of sorts: the lamp.It'd make both a post-stoneage light source, and an early iron age one, filling the mid-game gap, without being too reliable like olive oil or lava, but without the relatively tall exploration wall of olive oil.

Edited by Pyr0mrcow
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a lot of "the proper way to do or improve this is".

Why would anyone want to suggest the wrong way to improve something? Anyone who would want to suggest something would also genuinely believe that his is the right way, that's just how it works.

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You completely missed my point. It was about how things were communicated. Of course they think they are right, it is the condescension I was speaking of and the ineffectiveness of it as a way to communicate.

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You completely missed my point. It was about how things were communicated. Of course they think they are right, it is the condescension I was speaking of and the ineffectiveness of it as a way to communicate.

Not quite sure about condescension. Many suggestions I see start like "I think this part is wrong, here's what I suggest to fix it". Optionally there's also a part "and here's why I think this is wrong" somewhere in the middle. This is the most efficient way to get the point across. Sure we can dance around with fancy words, but in the end this is just adding layers of fluff on top of essentially what I described bit higher up this post, and reading all this fluff to me already starts to feel like I'm debugging a Spring application, filled with generics, abstract factories, proxies, delegates and intersectors. Which if you've done it at any point, you would know what I mean and how much of a waste of time it is.

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Not quite sure about condescension. Many suggestions I see start like "I think this part is wrong, here's what I suggest to fix it". Optionally there's also a part "and here's why I think this is wrong" somewhere in the middle. This is the most efficient way to get the point across. Sure we can dance around with fancy words, but in the end this is just adding layers of fluff on top of essentially what I described bit higher up this post, and reading all this fluff to me already starts to feel like I'm debugging a Spring application, filled with generics, abstract factories, proxies, delegates and intersectors. Which if you've done it at any point, you would know what I mean and how much of a waste of time it is.

Most of the times I would be forced  to agree with you. I am in a somewhat interesting situation. As a server and forum owner, I hate when people come too blunt, the " Your forum is broken, fix your s**t" approach is always received as offensive and ungrateful. So I spend my own money and many many hours putting up a server that people play for free and in the end they do not have the courtesy of treating me with respect.

On the other hand, when I am here and see one of the admins exploding with a player I think, " Why are they such sensitive babies?". I think is all about the perspective. Not saying is right or wrong. 

In the end society is build upon small acts of courtesy, this is the reason we smile, and wave and say thank you and please. One of the issues is that on written language is very hard to convey intonation, so is easy to be misunderstood. Like for example right now I have no idea if you will understand that I am just trying to contribute to this discussion and in no way have any intention of offending you personally.

As always peace and love. Lets all play this wonderful mod and have fun.

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Personal Opinion: Trying not to offend anyone is a pointless waste of time detracting from the real issues. We should just be blunt and learn to live with it. If someone really hated your forum/server/whatever they would leave. If they comment to you then they are trying to help and you should accept bluntness for what it is: efficiency.

 

But we're really digressing, we should probably get back on topic.

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Oh! Oh! I have an idea for candles that satisfies believability and evades the mechanic of killing animals indiscriminately!

 

We could add candles with animal fat, clay bowl, and maybe a wick as has been suggested already, but the animal fat must come from an animal with high familiarity! Maybe gold familiarity.

This is representative of you feeding the animal, which would develop more fat than a pure wild animal. AND/OR! Animal fat can be dependent on butchery skill. This way candles won't be attained until the player has spent time breeding and feeding an animal and achieved the necessary skill to make it worthwhile.

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Animals that roan freely in the forests are usually very poor in fat. There is not much fat in Deer.

My idea for animal fat involves tweaking the whole husbandry.

There should be such a thing as animal hunger.

The idea is this, hungry or starving animals will not die, (That would be really bad in a server) but will also not wield any meat or fat.

You nee to feed an animal for a number of days so it gets fat. Then it will give you meat and fat.

Wild animals will give some meat, but not a lot, and no fat.

So you actually need to have a good base, before you can even think on having fat to make a clay lamp.

That would also tackle another issue that we have now in the game. ( the overproduction of food ) Having to feed animals will consume that.

It's not OP in any sense, but I do not believe it will be implemented.

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I think if I had to worry about constantly feeding animals to keep them fat enough for meat, I just wouldn't bother anymore and I'd eat soybeans every day. Feeding them for breeding or familiarity works IMO because it has a proximal and "permanent" impact (pregancy, the white-bordered heart) - it's not a never-ending thing.

 

I really really like the idea of feeding or familiarizing animals to yield fat, though. I think it would work (if fat/tallow becomes a thing) that you have to max out the familiarity (yellow) to get fat (and maybe a meat bonus too?). This would distinguish a domesticated big/sheep/cow from the wild-types in terms of drops (believable) and give an incentive to max out the familiarity of your animals.

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Also, wild animals should be able to eat natural findings, but rely solely on players when tamed

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Also, wild animals should be able to eat natural findings, but rely solely on players when tamed

 

No.

 

Even fully domesitcated sheep, cows and horses eat grass irl.  Hay is given as an extra in winter - in the wild the herd would move to another pasture (lower down the mountain / over the next hill etc.).

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As far as feeding wild animals, we could have a trough type of block that can be supplied by food from the player. Animals would be able to come up and eat the food without the need for the player to find animals and make sure they eat. Plus most wild animals are some what scared of people and wouldn't accept the food by hand.

 

However as ChunkHunter said most animals just eat grass; so the trough would just be a extra for winter time to keep the wild population meaty.

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Ok this topic has veered from a bit off topic to a whole new topic. Any discussion of candles, tallow, animal mechanics belong in seperate threads. Please back on topic.

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I think if I had to worry about constantly feeding animals to keep them fat enough for meat, I just wouldn't bother anymore and I'd eat soybeans every day. Feeding them for breeding or familiarity works IMO because it has a proximal and "permanent" impact (pregancy, the white-bordered heart) - it's not a never-ending thing.

 

I really really like the idea of feeding or familiarizing animals to yield fat, though. I think it would work (if fat/tallow becomes a thing) that you have to max out the familiarity (yellow) to get fat (and maybe a meat bonus too?). This would distinguish a domesticated big/sheep/cow from the wild-types in terms of drops (believable) and give an incentive to max out the familiarity of your animals.

I think having fat from animals would give an extra reason to raise animals. Right now I have animal s, but most of the time I just eat soy.

In my suggestion animals should not die from hunger, so there is no need to constant feed then. My idea is that you have to feed them for a certain time, lets say 5 consecutive days, similar to fattening an animal before killing.

I also think cows should eat grass and need big pasture enclosed areas. 

Chicken should need grains to produce eggs.

It does not need to be repetitive work, you just have to set up ranch the proper way and extra feed your animals anytime you need animal byproduct, be it meat, fat, wool or eggs.

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I'm just going to go ahead and lock this thread since it's gone far too off topic.

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