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noname_42

Crafting Table 2.0

Crafting Table Poll   84 members have voted

  1. 1. What would you prefer?

    • 3x3 crafting grid with extra slots for tools etc.
      60
    • 5x5 crafting grid
      24
  2. 2. What would you prefer?

    • Crafting in the extended player inventory
      7
    • Crafting at a workbench
      22
    • Both with each way having dis-/advantages
      55

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

75 posts in this topic

Dropping this here:

 

e25CrMF.gif

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I wish I new how to create those. In any case I must insist on the 5 x 5, we have it for clay and leather, why not for crafting?

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Dropping this here:

 

e25CrMF.gif

There are some interesting concepts here.

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Sorry to ask, but what is going on there? Is normal hematite being converted to rich hematite?

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Refining. Conceptually, you pick out the stone and keep the bands of oxide as much as possible, and the possible output depends on your dexterity, prospecting skill, and encumbrance.

 

And that is how I imagine crafting with weighted materials should be. That gif essentially combines three ideas into one. The possibilities should be plenty.

 

Darmo mentions time being a resource, so I made crafting timed. Will be affected by skills, attributes, tools, material, and encumbrance.

 

Top bar is the ratio display. below it is the ratio multiplier input box, and beside it is the expected efficiency, which is 75%.

Below it is the progress bar and the output slot.

Below it is the toolbar, the deviance range(40%), and the tool switches. You might notice that the output has 70% weight of the input.

Beside the inventory is the scroll bar. No need for an explanation, I think.

Below it is the encumbrance bars. The buttons beside it is used to change the display mode of the bar labels.

Right above the info buttons is the hand slot. Used for extremely heavy object, like an anvil, a full barrel, or a carcass.

 

All slots on the inventory and your hand contributes to your encumbrance, hence the bar not decreasing before you place the item into the matrix.

 

As for the measurements:

 

Weight :: 1 stone : 1024 wood

Volume/Size :: 1 block : 4096 pixel : 4096*256 crystal

 

2s of ore takes up 512p. Regular stone would weigh 1s:512p.

Propick takes 80p and weighs 1s. Very heavy comparing to stone.

Chisel weighs 1s and takes 70p.

That stick is 2w:8p. Will translate to 128w:512p per log, placing consideration in space instead of weight. Wood rubble would have higher size per weight, accounting for it's bulkiness.

 

5x5 crafting matrix would open up even more possibilities, yes, but I'm concerned about the size of recipe entries, as making a recipe accommodate weighted would double the size of the entry, and making it 5x5 would nearly triple it.

 

I'll probably make more gifs. Probably. That gif took 1 hour to figure out how to make one in Gimp, 1 hour to make the assets, and 1 hour to actually make 30 24 frames. Now I know how difficult it is to make graphics for games.

Djakuta, just Google it.

Edited by Miner239
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... the 5 x 5, we have it for clay and leather, why not for crafting?

Or do we?!?!   ;-)  In seriousness, Like the idea of assembling a rough form of lumber pieces, but as far as I know it's not even a certainty thing that world-placeable lumber will be a thing in TFC2.

 

If we look at what makes a blacksmith shop be built the way it is, there's a few salient physical features:

- forge

- bellows

- crucible

- anvil

- bloomery

- blast furnace

 

Then, there are useful accessory things that, though not required strictly speaking, are I believe often done for convenience:

- barrels for quenching

- tool racks for extra hammers

- an area for pit kilning

 

Plus of course many chests for fuel, flux, ore, and ingot cooling.  The metal tiers situation, combined with blacksmithing process - which is very involved and drawn out - is what promotes this.  There's a lot of stuff going on to get through the tiers, and it makes for interesting work spaces.

 

If I'm understanding correctly, the desire is to have something similar to this for other crafts?  I think the problem is, no other craft really has tiers, large set-piece process assemblies, or an involved working mechanism like the whole metalworking craft has.  Right now you just literally carry a saw on you, for instance, and you can make all the wood stuff you want right in your inventory.  Most other crafts require a barrel, at most.  So, I'm not totally clear if the goal is making more interesting and interconnected workspaces, or simply improving the crafting grid, but I'll give my interpretation of the former.

 

Running with the carpentry craft, as an example, this could be accomplished through making more process blocks/assemblies, or even just 'scenery' tools.   I've seen a lot of mods that do their crafting via a block that you toss things on top of/inside of, and they make an item.     So for instance, we could have a 'barrel jig' block.  You toss your lumber on top, and it turns into a 'rough barrel' block or something, with the clamp in place.   Then, you grab your hoops.  Either right-click add them, or left-click block-break process if possible, to bring time into the equation, scaling with tool tier.  All the while this process block could watch around it for appropriate tools on racks or in hotbar - saw, hammer.  Barrel of nails (or maybe it's just generalized 'hardware').  Brace-and-bit.  Adze, Planer, whatever.    You could do the same thing for a chest process block.  You could have a ropemaking stand.    A rabbeting plane and jig for ladders.    

 

These would all bring these crafts out into the world, and if they share common tools and hardware dependencies (barrel of nails/hardware) this will compel the player to build them in proximity to each other.  An additional effect would be to draw out production, since these things would be produced 1 at a time, rather than in big stacks instantly.   Also, by just sucking up the materials in the process block, the lumber cost can be whatever is desired.  Even 40+, because there's no grid to limit the number of ingredients (assuming I'm guessing correctly at how those blocks function). 

 

The crafting table (carpenter's table?) could be another common denominator.  It could be that in addition to the process block, and the hardware, the crafting table must be placed.  AND if it's not already an involved enough process, the table must contain a piece of paper, and a piece of charcoal.  This represents the drawing and planning.  These are consumed with each large item (barrel, chest) produced.  Now suddenly paper is a resource.  Now, all these jigs could perhaps first be built on the carpenter's table, which maybe is a 5x5 grid.  That would allow for a variety of expensive recipes.  Or, the table could also be a toss-on process block.  But instead of a half-finished form, the raw materials just float there, and the jig that is outputted is triggered by right-clicking on the table with a certain tool or item?

 

Overall, this kind of a setup would incentivize in-place carpentry of larger items, by requiring specialized tools and accessories, that the player probably will not carry with them.   There could be a variety of metal bits involved in the carpenter table, process jigs, and the finished product itself.  And then also metal tool dependencies - tools that are only smithable perhaps, not castable.   Add paper and charcoal to the mix, the player just won't carry all that stuff with them all the time I think.  Then barrels and chests become items not to be taken for granted, as I think they kind of are now.  A player might actually take a cart of chests and/or barrels with them to a new mine, in order to set up.  And yet I think the processes I've outlined are not as time consuming as smithing, which is appropriate for basic stuff like barrels and chests.  At the same time, if the tier of the tool can be taken into account in either block-breaking or right-clicking to process the item into finished form, it brings a bit of incentive to make better tools.

 

Now maybe I misinterpreted what the goal is here.  If the goal is to incentive a 'worshop-like' appearance, without creating a bunch of process blocks, well, I'm not sure that's going to happen readily.  Tools on racks are well and good, but ultimately cannot compare to forges, bloomeries, anvils, and blast furnaces.   And an inventory crafting grid with tool slots isn't going to do anything at all for a workshop-like appearance.   Until the game has a craft with similar intricacy, tiers, and maybe even a minigame similar to metal working, there's just not going to be any other work areas with the same feel as the blacksmith shop.

Refining.

So, is that a GUI for a specific process block?  Or a different tab of the inventory?  And what is the "deviance range" for?  Do we really want players refining ore in their inventory?  And is refining ore going to be a thing?!

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So, is that a GUI for a specific process block?  Or a different tab of the inventory?  And what is the "deviance range" for?  Do we really want players refining ore in their inventory?  And is refining ore going to be a thing?!

 

That is a general workbench GUI.

There might be no tabbing. It's not in the inventory.

Deviance range stands for the range at which your expected output will change, which in this case, it would be 95-55%.

No, you're not going to refine ore without a surface to work on.

Maybe, I'm just pointing out the possibilities from integrating weight into raw items.

Edited by Miner239
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I think both ideas are exclusive. We could have a working bench with 5 x 5 grid and several tool around that could be clicked to activate what tools you are using to create that recipe. My point is that the design would be more intuitive because the 5x5 grid makes for a more detailed recipe.

At the same time I would like for more world-placeable blocks to create items in a more live faction. Like my idea for the barrel.

Now bear with me for a minute.

Imagine if snow would make you walk really slow to the point where you need  snow shoes.

Paleolithic man was able to create  snow shoes long before metal by the use of steam and presure he was able to bend wood to make it go circle and also to make it more strait for javelins.

So there you have your first carpenter work area needs a way to steam wood.

Many more things can be added to carpentry and taken out of the crafting grid into special blocks and mini games.

When making a bow for example is imperative that both sides are worked to the same shape, I can see a mini game where you have to hold the mouse bottom for some time simulating carving the bow and let go and you have no set numbers so you have to be taking out more wood from both sides until they are balanced. After some time you would get the handle of it but it would require a real life skill to held down the mouse only so much.

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All good points Darmo which means that we need some good expansion ideas for other trade crafts. Clearly they should be in another thread but I'll go ahead and say here that ideas which I tend to favor should not cause too much complex coding on the backend for me. This can be hard to predict for the non-coders among you but with as much as I have on my plate, simple is better. That said, 'simple' does not mean that a process has to have only 1 step. Rather, if you are putting forth a suggestion for barrel making for example, each step or device that is involved should be fairly simple from a logical standpoint.

 

Leather-making is, I think, a good example of something which takes multiple steps but at the end of the day, each step is pretty simple and straightforward. The barrels themselves were hard to write and fairly complex, but it needed that complexity so that it could support making alcohol, tanning, preserving, etc.

 

Also, @Miner239 I saw that you came to irc. You need to hang around for any activity. The place will get going for a while and then its dead for 12+ hours. Also, I'll address your size thing in the weighted thread.

 

Edit: The barrel making suggestion above is NOT simple. Anything which requires scanning a block to make sure that a certain valid shape is found is usually more difficult to make work than you would think.

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Edit: The barrel making suggestion above is NOT simple. Anything which requires scanning a block to make sure that a certain valid shape is found is usually more difficult to make work than you would think.

Is this referring to Tony's barrel making, or mine?  You say a 'valid shape' so I'm assuming Tony's.  Does that mean that assemblages like the forge, bloomery, and BF are also not simple to code and should be avoided?  Are you talking more about certain valid shapes within a single block space, like a lumber assemblage?  Or you're talking more about simple for the player to understand?

 

Loose Item Processors

What about the case I suggested of a block that looks for certain items in certain quantities tossed on top of it? Does having no GUI keep coding significantly simpler?  Is that base block looking for loose items on top simple enough?  It seems like a lot of other mods use it, so I thought it might be familiar to players of regular mc.   I tried to keep it to one step because I wasn't sure we wanted to draw out barrel making too much, given it's provides some basic items for other trades, inventory organizing, etc.   I tried to keep it to basically one intermediate step.  It could easily be expanded on though.

 

Can Left-click output different items from same block?

Also, though I've used it in a few suggestions, I've never seen it clarified:  the left-click-block-breaking process, can that be made to output different items from a single source block, depending on the tool and/or tier of tool used to break it?  Or is it a pretty binary system where you break this block, you get this item, no matter how or with what you break it?  I need to stop suggesting it if that's not even a (simple to code) possibility.

 

Can right click simulate time and tier factors of left click?

If the above left click stuff is not a possibility, can the right-click be used to bring in the time/material factor?  It seems like right clicking is more versatile, and can even have it's own sounds where left button function all uses the same thumping no matter the tool.  I'm thinking here of the firestarter, how it has its own sound.  It'd be cool for saws and hammers to have their own sounds.  It seems like right button functions could *approximate* time based on randomness, like how the firestarter can be fast or long, depending on what I assume is a randomness (though whether the code is on the firestarter, or the block, I don't know). 

 

But would it be a simple and useful thing, to make the right click function, instead of using a random number, have a some sort of 'timer' that fills up and then executes, to approximate tool tier time?  If the firestarter checks for success every 1/2 second or whatever, could a saw for instance, increment a number on itself when being used continually on a block, and once that number reaches a certain point it turns the block into whatever and resets its timer to 0?  So that could in a way bring some time factor into right-clicking of tools?  And it could play an actual appropriate tool sound while doing it?  

 

So in my earlier examples, the rough chest might use a hammer to finish it, and a copper hammer will finish slower than a steel one, but they will both make hammering sounds while processing?   The barrel could use a saw to finish, and make saw sounds?   Even if a defined timer isn't possible, could the different tool tiers have different randomness factors?  So all tiers can complete it virtually instantly, but on a long average, a better tier will complete more jobs faster than a lower tier?  is This idea 'simple' enough to be useful?

 

I apologize for getting a little off topic here with process questions, but I feel like for me at least, I could make better honed suggestions with a little clarification on some of these mechanics above, and if multi-block assemblages like forge, bloomery, bf, are to be avoided.

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For multiblock structures the complexity of coding really depends. Ultimately you need some sort of source block that scans the structure, like the blast furnace block. As soon as you start adding stuff like allowing the player to slab the sides of the structure, the complexity goes through the roof and it takes weeks to get right while fixing bugs.

 

For building inside a block like Tony's suggestion, it is a lot easier to code than multiblock structures but not without its challenges from my perspective as the dev, or as a player when you think it looks perfect but one little piece is off.

 

Supports are pretty easy to understand but a lot of players have sooo much trouble with it. It's a good example of even relatively simple things causing headaches for players..

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Left Click: Technically yes. A perfect vanilla example of this is if you try to mine diamonds with a wooden pickaxe, it drops nothing. It's A LOT easier to code a "Drop item X if tool category Y is used, drop nothing otherwise" than it is to do "Drop item X if tool category Y is used, Drop item A if tool category B is used." Pay close attention to the word "category" because in terms of registration, the only distinction within a tool category is a tier number. So the diamond ore block is able to say "Tool Category Pickaxe, Tier Iron+" and not much more.

 

I managed to do it in a recent update of TFC1 where you can now use hammers to get nuggets from ore blocks if you don't have a pickaxe, but it's really messy and I'd rather not do it again. Registered pickaxes work just fine and break the block quickly and drop the ore as intended. The hammer implementation though is based on the fact that it is not registered as a valid tool, which has a side effect of not getting the breaking bonus and therefore using the hammer takes just as long as using your hand to break the block. There's also mod compatibility that has to be taken into consideration. There's currently a single registration system for modders to say "My tool is a pickaxe, let it break any block that says pickaxes are valid." There is no infrastructure in place though to say "My tool is a pickaxe, let it break any block that says pickaxes are valid and drop this specific category of thing" because the drops are handled by the block, and not the tool.

 

Right Click: Possible? Yes. Simple? No.

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Thanks for those clarifications Kitty & Bioxx.  So, if exotic left and right click functions are to be avoided, the tool could be used in a right-click instant fashion still?  You toss planks onto the barrel jig, right click the jig, jig looks for nearby crafting table, finds the planks floating on it and changes to a jig block with partial barrel.   Toss hardware on top of partially-complete-barrel-block, right click on block with tool, jig looks for nearby crafting table, finds hardware floating on top, pops out a finished barrel and returns the block to empty jig form?  No tier benefits to tool, but could still subtract durability I guess.  On the user-friendly level, I kind of feel like this is not any more confusing then some of the other process blocks.  If they understand a bloomery they should understand this.

 

Or maybe Miner's setup is simpler from a coding perspective, since it could apply to many kinds of items within a group (if not all items)?   I like very much that is has the processing arrow and could (hopefully) incorporate tool tier into the time to complete the item.  So rather than instantly sawing up a log stack, or completing an entire plank stack, it could take some time per unit?   It still limits the amount of materials in the recipe to the grid unfortunately.   I feel like most of the other stuff is a bit superfluous (and potentially rather confusing to a newb), unless variable efficiency ore refining is going to be a thing.   

 

As far as a more workshop-like environment, having all that functionality in one block probably won't help that aspect, unless it's a matter of the crafting bench just checking for various scenic workshop blocks around it.   If the crafting bench weighs a ton, and is somewhat difficult to craft, that may at least encourage it to be used in a specific area, rather than just being carried around like a toolbox.  If hardware had a specific container all it's own, and was also heavy to discourage it being carried around by the player on trips, it might encourage the player to have a hardware bin in the shop, near their bench and tools and so forth.  You could do things like require the player to soak the lumber in a barrel (encouraging a barrel to be in the shop) before tossing it in the jig.  But then you have a new item (soaked lumber). 

 

In the context of a bench gui with processing arrow, looking around it, it could add a slightly different dimension if processing some things could go *faster* if certain tool blocks are near the bench.  So you'd only HAVE to have a handsaw or whatever tool to produce a thing, but if you have a sawmill, drill press, planer, etc, it goes faster.  Maybe rather than requiring inter-block checking, which I don't know if that's simple,  these adjacent speed-enhancing tools could be activated in some way (powered?), and then provide an area of effect 'enchantment' bonus to speed of doing things?  Area of effects from blocks are a standard mechanic right?

 

PS as an aside, I'd suggest that specialized slots - for instance the hammer and flux slots of an anvil (but also tool slots if this revised grid has them) - have a grey silhouette of the thing that goes there.  I've watched some LPs where people get really confused by those slots, trying to put ingots and all kinds of stuff in them.  It might help a bit if there was a visual clue.  Just a thought.

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We shall have to get some ideas brewing for the other trades.

 

Aw the whole block-scanning system would be the Shangri La that's for sure. It might break the code with the awesome. I understand that B. We need to be gentle with java here.

 

If we're thinking additional tools to make different things incorperated into the crafting grid, could we have clicking on the crafting table with the item in question quickslots that tool. That makes it a bit more intuitive.

That is of course if we have a slot system rather than an automatic check affording you extra options.

Could we alternatively have multiple outputs according to the tool. i.e. three output slots with a tool next to each.

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Thought I'd post this link to a TFC LP where the guy muses about the crafting system of TFC vs Ark & others.  Always interesting to hear candid opinions.   Skip to about 3:50 to hear his musings over crafting.

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A modular table to attach already existing and add-ons, with new interface for terrafirma and an without or with changes for add-ons. It simply attach at sides of interfaces and zoom out if need more screen.
I think it can clarify.
Its the concept of modular:xf2e8p.pngsSo, the advantage is because you can leave items and combine for your need for each place of your building, its not overpowered and everyone like to have a beautiful workshop. Less clicks with believable logic

Edited by Saberwulfy
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A modular table to attach already existing and add-ons, with new interface for terrafirma and an without or with changes for add-ons. It simply attach at sides of interfaces and zoom out if need more screen.

I think it can clarify.

Its the concept of modular:xf2e8p.pngSo, the advantage is because you can leave items and combine for your need for each place of your building, its not overpowered and everyone like to have a beautiful workshop. Less clicks with believable logic

I'm drooling... I love multiblocks and this would be awesome, although I like real word interaction like the weaving/drying racks/ pitkiln systems and I hope more of that sort of stuff gets implemented.

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I'm drooling... I love multiblocks and this would be awesome, although I like real word interaction like the weaving/drying racks/ pitkiln systems and I hope more of that sort of stuff gets implemented.

It would be my preference too.

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Interesting concept Saberwulfy. Could be useful for certain things.

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What if the axe when right-clicking a wooden log would bring up a knapping interface with that logs texture? Then you could make a barrel like you would a pot. This is much more simplistic then what has been suggested before, but is perhaps a bit more realistic to implement. This is assuming that right-clicking isn't too hard to do. This could be extended for other wooden objects, like boats, which I think someone mentioned in this thread as well.

 

For planks I suggest that if you break a log, that a player as placed, with a saw it would drop planks instead. The "that a player has placed" is there to prevent a player from cheating by sawing a tree directly into planks. IRL the saw would get stuck from the weight of the tree if you tried to saw it through, and is one of the reasons that we normally uses an axe instead.

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Oh, excellent idea. that sounds like a reasonable trade-off and shouldn't be too difficult to implement either.

 

I think it would be nice to see variety but that could well manifest from a purely graphical perspective.

 

We could also if we wanted assign a specific tool which only served that purpose as well. Thus adding value to specific tools.

 

As much as I'd love to see a 3D crafting system I think I'll have to a) learn to code and B) code it myself.

Maybe someday I suppose. :D

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I realized after I wrote the above about planks that it has already been suggested in another thread, albeit in a much more advance form. However I still think having separate tools make wooden logs drop different items is a nice idea.

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I still would prefer my idea about placing lumber in a pattern. I do not see how a player would go wrong about placing the lumber. Even if they do it, it wouldn't take longer to learn. The pattern would be activated by right clicking with the barrel metal band. You cannot be more natural than actually building the barrel like that.

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@Tony

I completely agree. I'd love that. I'm only going off Bioxx's response about it being a nightmare to code. Do you know of an easy way to do it?

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Not really, not a java coder. I may be wrong, but it should work in the same kind of way as a multiblock structure, like for example a bloomery, the difference is that instead of having to scan all those blocks it would need to scan 1 block but it needs to figure the position of all the lumber inside to make sure they all in the right place.

No idea how to code this, I imagine is not simple, but it would open up a whole new world of possibilities for the mod. 

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