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noname_42

Crafting Table 2.0

Crafting Table Poll   84 members have voted

  1. 1. What would you prefer?

    • 3x3 crafting grid with extra slots for tools etc.
      60
    • 5x5 crafting grid
      24
  2. 2. What would you prefer?

    • Crafting in the extended player inventory
      7
    • Crafting at a workbench
      22
    • Both with each way having dis-/advantages
      55

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

75 posts in this topic

For multiblock structures the complexity of coding really depends. Ultimately you need some sort of source block that scans the structure, like the blast furnace block. As soon as you start adding stuff like allowing the player to slab the sides of the structure, the complexity goes through the roof and it takes weeks to get right while fixing bugs.

 

For building inside a block like Tony's suggestion, it is a lot easier to code than multiblock structures but not without its challenges from my perspective as the dev, or as a player when you think it looks perfect but one little piece is off.

 

Supports are pretty easy to understand but a lot of players have sooo much trouble with it. It's a good example of even relatively simple things causing headaches for players..

 

That's what I'm looking for. I need to eat my words it seems so long as it's inside a block it's not so bad from a coding point of view. I'm psyched about that as yours was my favourite idea. :D

The issue he brings up is how to ensure the player understands what they might be doing wrong, when they've missed a block.

 

The only solution I can think of is that we either make a set of valid interpretations that will make the object, such that it's not likely that they'll work out another way to create an object that looks the same. Perhaps having the community put together all the iterations they can think of and checking to find all possibilities. That seems rather time consuming though. Rather if we could make the creation of the object as simple as possible, brainstorming for the best way to to it, thereby eliminating as much confusion as is possible.

 

Also we need another option added to the poll.

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I'm drooling... I love multiblocks and this would be awesome, although I like real word interaction like the weaving/drying racks/ pitkiln systems and I hope more of that sort of stuff gets implemented.

Imagine:  This system + multiplayer, you will can enter in a room and work at a side, your friend at other side, and a second friend get the 2 products to create a third. Ex: forge heating ingot (player 1) linked to, forge keeping hot (player 2) linked to, anvil creating metal sheets and welding (player 3) linked to, anvil creating armour pieces and finishing (player 4).

Players advantage: no external trades, less clicks, more interaction between players, less consumption, fordism.

(supposition) CPUs advantage: no creation of entites (throwing objects), less processing players moving

Edited by Saberwulfy
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@Kittty - Just read the linked thread.

 

Oh you're kidding me. So from a modder's point of view they basically offloaded work to yourselves. That's very annoying. I suppose that it does make things more efficient.

 

Serious query. I'm no coding genius, I am, however, familiar with coding. I absolutely love the sub block blocks. Especially those that render in 3D as the new ones are. If the community has sufficient desire is there the possibility of ourselves doing some of the legwork for you. I appreciate that the system is complicated but could you give us a template from which we work to churn out the variations of blocks to be rendered effectively.

I don't fully understand that code but I can certainly see a pattern enough to make me think that I could repeat a simple task even if I cannot fully understand its application. I appreciate that you'd likely have to tidy it up but it might get the drudging boring work out of the way no? The Json file seems to be quite logically repetitive.

 

It's just an offer as I love the mod. I feel silly saying I'd love this and that without actually offering my service.

 

P.S.

HAHA, I pasted the json code into work. 8 pages tho! XD That's insane.

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It's just an offer as I love the mod. I feel silly saying I'd love this and that without actually offering my service.

 

I think you missed just how many variations need to be done. The detailed chiseled block has 512 factorial permutations. To put that into perspective, lets say that each variation took up a single bit of memory in the json file (in reality it's a bit more than that). If the file contained all of the possible permutations, it would be 2 x 10^1179 TB. That's terrabytes. I would honestly be surprised if that much memory currently existed on all of earth combined.

 

Edit: Another way to put it, is that if we wrote a script that was able to spit out 100 variations every nanosecond this is how many years it would take before it completes:

 

110264136007502706851948437263622676052519363763429558927653311502778107942235938085781641626696545333724075123992070822328450565090711889036070875590099550151798536290181439263394501381753349006718760260101144224065347665162113053374100238478423332737731096665278031217196524349071545801015162093666975055580929980439329679369526883867871915858036622074399683404589294336133430789587243078323733120145578075705783544819486464685930850328199479007889254798030941968834696538050818717385573130426576648143693181713247278803270592412742046052824521295136118209770578689218662205228102031735802701223802176258389420598954322021860861207962733446675442225799671020657083183462038851353853454424272771790595364297278504917363769011948808883573193428424751460014513828262771799731236884607762187039023524173924454226086928539397328026665662603440257599879431680903038377385857451117814652309182735629800092058585276105859048358991247077194634938095477523824864723975907775543867393260772973759309470875627611107182033646205534399230369427619840000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

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roflbiscuits

 

But yeah, aside from that solution, which you're obviously not doing, if there is some drudgery work that you can offload, some of us will be more than happy to help out. I'm a noob at Java, but like Thorah said, if there's a pattern that we can expand on for you to save you some time, then I'd love to give it a crack.

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I think you missed just how many variations need to be done. The detailed chiseled block has 512 factorial permutations. To put that into perspective, lets say that each variation took up a single bit of memory in the json file (in reality it's a bit more than that). If the file contained all of the possible permutations, it would be 2 x 10^1179 TB. That's terrabytes. I would honestly be surprised if that much memory currently existed on all of earth combined.

 

Edit: Another way to put it, is that if we wrote a script that was able to spit out 100 variations every nanosecond this is how many years it would take before it completes:

 

110264136007502706851948437263622676052519363763429558927653311502778107942235938085781641626696545333724075123992070822328450565090711889036070875590099550151798536290181439263394501381753349006718760260101144224065347665162113053374100238478423332737731096665278031217196524349071545801015162093666975055580929980439329679369526883867871915858036622074399683404589294336133430789587243078323733120145578075705783544819486464685930850328199479007889254798030941968834696538050818717385573130426576648143693181713247278803270592412742046052824521295136118209770578689218662205228102031735802701223802176258389420598954322021860861207962733446675442225799671020657083183462038851353853454424272771790595364297278504917363769011948808883573193428424751460014513828262771799731236884607762187039023524173924454226086928539397328026665662603440257599879431680903038377385857451117814652309182735629800092058585276105859048358991247077194634938095477523824864723975907775543867393260772973759309470875627611107182033646205534399230369427619840000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Trying to wrap my mind on this concept and having a really hard time.

I apologize in advance for going off topic. Like I said before I am not a Java coder, but I can read scripts.

In my understanding Micro-blocs works like this:

The first information is to set what kind of material and the position of the full block in the world, so:

Smooth Andesite at x,y,z.

Than we divide the block by 512 and have to localize each individual micro-block inside the main position. 

Again we can use a system of x,y,z that works inside the block. We could even go as far as just numbering the individual positions so position 1 would always be the bottom south east position.

As a way to optimize the rendering, we only need to specify the smaller amount of micro-blocks: So if we have more than 50 percent of the micro-blocks are air we only need to position the solid micro-blocks and vice versa.

Now for the rendering we only need to render the facets that are facing air. Each block has 6 facets, but if they are facing another micro-block they do not need to be rendered. That is still a lot of calculations, but am I really that wrong on how I imagine that micro-blocks work or should work?

I should finish by saying that I am really just trying to understand the concept here and not insisting that micro-blocks be used. Thanks for the patience, and I appreciate any effort in explaining this. 

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That's how rendering used to work. That is no longer the case in 1.8. In 1.8 you use block states and a json file for non-standard blocks. For example, if you remove the top north east corner microblock, that's one block state. If you then remove another microblock that is another block state. I may have made a mistake in my early calculation and its not 512! but it's still a very large number. Basic combinatorics says that because there are 512 microblocks in one standard block, and that each microblock can be either "on" or "off" that there are 2^512 variations, so there is that many block states. Each individual block state has to have it's own entry in the json file so it knows what model to render. The model is not made dynamically, they are all pre-generated.

Even with that "smaller" number, the above example would result in a file that's 1.6x10^141 terrabytes.

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If I might use an analogy, the 'old' pre-1.8 system was smart - like legos.  You could use your 512 lego blocks to build any type of 8x8x8 block you wanted, and place it.   The new system is 'dumb'.  Each 8x8x8 block is carved from wood, like a child's alphabet block.  The dumb game just quickly grabs one and plops it down.   No assembly required.  Faster loading, but requires a lot of storage.

 

The number of variations is incredible. According to a quick google,  the volume of our sun is 1.4x1027 cubic meters.  I believe Kitty's number is 1.3x10154?   (Full disclosure, I'm bad at maths)  So...if each variation were a RL cubic meter, you'd have to have a number of blocks ready to go, roughly 6x the volume of our sun.  If I'm doing this right...

Edited by Darmo
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Kitty, is it true that placed logs will be removed in TFC2? By placed logs I mean plain vanilla style log placement, so 6 variations all full block.

 

For an example of how this could be done, see http://www.curse.com/mc-mods/minecraft/224600-ye-gamol-chattels

It has some very interesting crafting mechanics, which is close to some of the above suggestions, but is limited to a set of special work benches. This would make the implementation much simpler I think.

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Kitty, is it true that placed logs will be removed in TFC2? By placed logs I mean plain vanilla style log placement, so 6 variations all full block.

 

No, and I'm not sure what would give you that idea. When I said "placed lumber" I mean the actual lumber item. Lumber and logs are two completely different things. http://wiki.terrafirmacraft.com/Lumber

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Maybe i'm just a glutton for punishment, But I'd very much like to see crafting involve a progress bar. Not just click, BOOM!!! 1,000 arrows. I think the time it takes to craft something should differ based on the complexity of the item, the number being made, and the players skill/familiarity with crafting that particular recipe. 

 

I'd also be very okay with skill/familiarity (as well as quality of tools/materials used) having an effect on the durability/quality and chance of successful crafting.

 

I imagine a new player should take a long time to make an inferior arrow with poor durability, accuracy, and damage, and will probably fail at the recipe often.  That is compared to a highly skilled arrowsmith using ideal materials and tools who could quickly and reliably crank out a lot of durable, accurate, and very lethal arrows .

Edited by subarctic_guy
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Maybe i'm just a glutton for punishment, But I'd very much like to see crafting involve a progress bar. Not just click, BOOM!!! 1,000 arrows. I think the time it takes to craft something should differ based on the complexity of the item, the number being made, and the players skill/familiarity with crafting that particular recipe. 

 

I'd also be very okay with skill/familiarity (as well as quality of tools/materials used) having an effect on the durability/quality and chance of successful crafting.

 

I imagine a new player should take a long time to make an inferior arrow with poor durability, accuracy, and damage, and will probably fail at the recipe often.  That is compared to a highly skilled arrowsmith using ideal materials and tools who could quickly and reliably crank out a lot of durable, accurate, and very lethal arrows .

 

I agree but I definitly don't want just a timer and a % chance that you have success. I would prefer something more interactive like knapping where you can get faster by learning the shape and sometimes it happens that you click the wrong field and the rock is wasted. So if the crafting process fails it is not due to bad luck but due to your derpyness

Edited by noname_42
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Maybe i'm just a glutton for punishment, But I'd very much like to see crafting involve a progress bar. Not just click, BOOM!!! 1,000 arrows. I think the time it takes to craft something should differ based on the complexity of the item, the number being made, and the players skill/familiarity with crafting that particular recipe. 

 

I'd also be very okay with skill/familiarity (as well as quality of tools/materials used) having an effect on the durability/quality and chance of successful crafting.

 

I imagine a new player should take a long time to make an inferior arrow with poor durability, accuracy, and damage, and will probably fail at the recipe often.  That is compared to a highly skilled arrowsmith using ideal materials and tools who could quickly and reliably crank out a lot of durable, accurate, and very lethal arrows .

 

I have mixed fillings about that. First, I hate those games where you have to leave your character 5 minutes in order tu build a decent weapon. However, I dislike how easily things are created in the actual tfc.

I agree but I definitly don't want just a timer and a % chance that you have success. I would prefer something more interactive like knapping where you can get faster by learning the shape and sometimes it happens that you click the wrong field and the rock is wasted. So if the crafting process fails it is not due to bad luck but due to your derpyness

I think that's the whole point. Even it will require more coding (sorry Bioxx and Kitty) having to do the things yourself in sorts of "minigames" is just too sexy  :P See this gif:

http://makeagif.com/w1fSvn

(Bad quality FTW)

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I really do love the idea of actually interacting with blocks and items outside of the crafting grid. 

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I think we need more processes like the leather tanning. Nothing that complex in each individual step (so no crafting timers or any of that) but little interactive bits like scraping the hide. One example where a process could be implemented would be in creating alcohol. Brewing beer or distilling spirits etc. There could be some fun involved in that.

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maybe a good compromise would be to have a mini game that produces different results based on some sort of skill element instead being simply succeed or fail like napping.

A simple example is this can be found in the smithing minigame in fable 2. You can plunk along with low skill, or try and get better results by trying to keep up as the game gets harder.

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I am liking this post a lot. I love all the multi-block structures for the blacksmith in current tfc. I think expanding into the other professions with multi-block structures and/or workbenches would be a great addition. For the sake of not having to reinvent the wheel so to speak, have any of you played with the Ye Gamol Chattels mod? It actually has a couple of carpentry workbenches that you interact with. So this would appease the workbench and the world interaction lovers. One bench is used with a saw to cut the lumber and you have to interact with it and move the saw. The other bench has you sanding and treating the planks but you have to interact with it as well. Both of these ideas would be in the spirit of tfc as many things are already done this way. 

 

http://minecraft.curseforge.com/projects/ye-gamol-chattels

http://minecraft-ygc.wikia.com/wiki/Minecraft_YGC_Wiki

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have any of you played with the Ye Gamol Chattels mod? It actually has a couple of carpentry workbenches that you interact with. So this would appease the workbench and the world interaction lovers. One bench is used with a saw to cut the lumber and you have to interact with it and move the saw. 

 

That is a slick mod. I think the closest thing TFC has is the bellows and the hide scraping.

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This is exactly the kind of feature I would love to see in tfc.

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Important things to consider are what the crafting bench is used for in TFC.  Most things are made on a specialized block, like an anvil or a barrel.  What remains are Wood items.  So it might be interesting to just rework the crafting bench into an anvil-like mechanic.  IMO it's better if the player doesn't need to memorize 200 different recipes.  I also like the idea of consumables, like nails.

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15 hours ago, theJalden said:

Important things to consider are what the crafting bench is used for in TFC.  Most things are made on a specialized block, like an anvil or a barrel.  What remains are Wood items.  So it might be interesting to just rework the crafting bench into an anvil-like mechanic.  IMO it's better if the player doesn't need to memorize 200 different recipes.  I also like the idea of consumables, like nails.

I have suggested before the use of nails as a way to free up the crafting bench early for the player. This way the game could use the full grid for recipes, but the player would not be able to place wood blocks until he has nails. Part of that suggestion included hinges for doors and metal bands for barrels. 

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3x3 crafting grid in player inventory is very convenient, you doesn't need to carry, put and break crafting table endlessly, hope that such feature would be available for TFC2.

On the other hand, extended crafting table with extra slots for materials and tools would be great addition. I frequently forgot to remove saw from crafting grid.

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In response to the survey up top it asks whether a 3*3 crafting table is more appealing or 5*5 is. I feel that we could keep the 3*3 in the players inventory as with TFC 1 for simple recipes ment for on the go crafting, but the more I depth stuff on a crafting table as a 5*5 grid. 

Or I also enjoy the more interactive type of crafting found in TFC 1: an example is cheese crafting. Takes time but you don't have to stay there for it to be made.

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