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Miner239

Clothing

64 posts in this topic

Tailoring clothes to different styles would be cool.You could then make tailcoats, dresses, top hats, tank tops, skirts... you see where I am going with this?

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The current intent is to make sure that, at least for the first few islands, there will be some required resources present so that no bottlenecks occur. As for the rock layers, each island is its own single rock layer at this time. Fear not, there are plans for deeper rock layers on each island, but nothing that I want to reveal quite yet..

 

Oh that's not what i had hoped. Anyway, too early to make judgment.

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Have you guys played the mobile game Blockheads? It has something similar. In the game, your characters start off just wearing undergarments and will require clothing later on to protect themselves from the elements. Having them outside naked while it is raining will impede their ability to perform tasks. If their bodies get cold enough, they'll start to shiver and then eventually lose health. The same can be said for the opposite, if their bodies get too hot. Perhaps we can have something similar in TFC2?

Edited by atheoang3l0
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The Blockheads clothing is exactly what I'm aiming for. But surely we have more variety than that, don't we? We have wool, silk, paper, and possibly bark. Plates could drop from squids that can be sewed to any clothing to improve armor and elemental armor.

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The Blockheads clothing is exactly what I'm aiming for. But surely we have more variety than that, don't we? We have wool, silk, paper, and possibly bark. Plates could drop from squids that can be sewed to any clothing to improve armor and elemental armor.

The only hard part of a squid's body is the beak. Otherwise they are completely soft-fleshed. Squids do not have plates at all.

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Oh, I'm talking about the wrong species, then. It's the cephalopod that has exoendoskeleton, a firm one. More reason to fish, you know.

Edited by Miner239
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Oh, I'm talking about the wrong species, then. It's the cephalopod that has exoendoskeleton, a firm one.

cuttlefish

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cuttlefish

"Witty Jack be close den you tink" - Tia Dalma

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One way or another, there is no way to use shells to make clothing in a believable way. They break to easy and have very low piercing. Nobody ever used shells for anything other then decoration.

Also historically the first clothes were hides and pelts.

Civilization was a lot more evolved when people started using cloth for clothing.

You say that plant fibers are easy then hides, but for hunter gatherers hides and leather were abundant.

Cloth required more work and had less durability and offered less protection to the environment.

Just a few years ago, cowboys would still use leather. 

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Not shells, Djakuta, but plates. I believe that layering a few of them would be protective enough from minor damage.

 

Arabians, I believe, have already used cloth for clothing since the sixth century? Sixth century is way before TFC(2)'s timeline. 

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Well when you put like that as layers, as long as they go on top of leather or cloth, I can see as some kind of armor. Kind of weird, but there are weirder things.

My comment on cloth was just that it comes after leather, Hunter gatherers had a lot of pelts and hides to make clothes, only once they established themselves in one place and started agriculture, they started using cloth clothes.

The way I see if/when we have climate, the first thing we will need to do when spawning in a new world would be to find and kill some large animal so we can use its hide for protection.

Maybe latter on when we plant some hemp or cotton we can make cloth for clothes.

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Maybe make it so that cloth have less heat retention, which is good for tropical/desert climates, because else you'll get heatstroke. 

 

Oh wait, I did state that on the OP. Did you read all of it?

 

Nevermind. But you do need to stay sometimes to tan the hide, which would as well be the time to make a permanent base. 

Edited by Miner239
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There is a difference between tanned leather and treated pelt.

The pelt retains the fur, and if done right is quicker than tanning leather. It will not last as long, but that's what was used by primitive cultures, including native Americans.

It could be a question of just trowing the hide on your back, like a cape, or something equally fast.

Another thing to consider is that when spawning a new world is always spring, so temperatures should not be very low.

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On the topic of bark used for fabric... as well as the development of woven textile fabrics for use in clothing...

There is certainly precedent for tree bark.  There are numerous cultures that cultivated the barks of various trees, processing them in different ways to make soft fabrics capable of being stitched together to make garments.  

In fact, a recent bronze age find in England (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-35280290) found fabric made from lime bark.  It is possible to harvest the bark, ret it, and get soft fibrous material from it that can be made into all sorts of things.  There are other examples as well!

Also, the use of dyed and woven flax fabric textiles likely preceded agriculture by around 20,000 years.  I can't seem to link to the Science Mag article about it...  Anyway, the use of plant-based woven and dyed fibers are likely within the purview of ancient hunter gatherer cultures!

Edited by Andeerz
Considering it merged your two posts together, and that line was the last one before your new post, it looks like the editor worked just fine.
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I think clothing should be used above all as a protection against nature. I feel like if the temperature thing gets added, it will be impossible for example to survive the first night if you spawn in a northern island, because you will freeze. Also, for the dessert, the sun will be hitting so hard that you will need clothes just to stop the direct sunlight. Adding protection for it is (I think) not accurate, and I think clothing should be worn when you are on your base, with no damage to receive but the one the hard sun does when you are harvesting. Moreover, I think wearing armor should imply a strong penalitation in the body temperature and in the speed you move, just to make clothing viable.

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I would love for there to be the threat of death through freezing and overheating.  Clothes would lose much of their point, at least as far as survival in the wilderness is concerned (which this game is trying to simulate somewhat), if these threats were taken out.

To address the issue of dying in the first day to exposure, I can see two possible solutions:

 

1.  Always spawn in a tropical/temperate zone in a mild season

2.  Always spawn with the bare minimum clothing needed to survive the initial conditions in which the player spawns (which might be giving the player too much)

 

Some sort of difficulty options could of course modify this!

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I like to pretend that when I create a new world I am a castaway or a stranded astronaut in a strange world. So I just spawn there and it has strange creatures and vegetation. It is a survival challenge.

Not sure if we should have a safe mechanism to prevent players from spawning in hot deserts or frozen tundras. In any of those cases, is hard to survive naked.

I think tfc right now already has something like that , Not sure about the numbers, but I do belive it goes something like from -6000 to -13000. Someone can check the code and correct me please.

Even within those coordinates it is possible to get very hot or very cold.

I guess the question is how easy you can have access to some rudimentary clothes that will give you basic protection against the enviroment.

Also how much of a buffer do you get before you start to literally die of heat or cold exposure?

For the Heat I believe the quickest option would be straw. some Hat and basic covers should help with the sun.

For cold you may need to just start a fire and heat yourself for a while so you build a buffer time. that would give you time to run and find some animal for leather.

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Yeah, stone age players would obviously have other means of regulating their body temperature. Spawned on the pole? Make a fire to warm yourself... then you find fitting clothing. Spawned on the equator? Find shade under trees, or get in contact with the nearest water source.

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Simple straw clothes would be the easiest solution I'd say.  Even with just a 2x2 grid, using thatch blocks, solid = torso, top two = head, bottom two = feet, and any three = legs.  That's 44 straw for a full set. These provide no armor value, just some basic insulation - enough to operate for half a day in cold weather perhaps, before needing to warm up by a fire.  But they wear out very fast - a couple days maybe.  If the player start is limited to sub-tropical, temperate, and sub-arctic islands (tropical and arctic being excluded) then this should probably suffice, as long as they start in spring.

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I think straw would work for Hot weather, protections against the sun.

For cold weather plant fibers should work better.

An idea is to have cattails drop fiber that need to be processed somehow and turned into clothes.

It would not be as good as pelt or wool, but it would be a start.

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I think if a temperature feature was added and clothes against the environment became a thing it would make the game slightly more difficult and gives you something else to deal with (in my opinion a good thing). On my first few days of tfc1 I didn't have a home, I just ran around dodging mobs until I had planks and nice materials, with temperature, building a shelter could be a first day task. A basic thatch and log hut to protect you from the cold and wet. A shaded thatch and clay hut to run inside when you catch heatstroke or sunburn. Then as you continue on your journey, clothes become a thing and then all of a sudden tempersture becomes more manageable, unless you travel to extreme enviroments of course.

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I agree that temperature and clothing should factor in to tfc2. I have wanted this for a while now. It would definitely change the way players play the game then. Shelter and food are always #1 on survival trips and should be in this game. We shouldn't be able or at least strongly discouraged to run around dodging mobs the first few nights. With the island tiers being mentioned, I guess clothing would need to be tiered.

 

Otherwise, I was going to suggest that the type of clothing you make should be determined by the climate and what is available and not progression based. Cattails as it is in game already, would be everywhere so everyone would have access to it just like grass so you might as well get fibers from the grass and not add in an extra purpose for cattails. Jute for burlap clothing would last longer than straw.

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I don't really see an innate need for clothing to be tiered.  It's meant to fight the weather, which I guess I'd assume doesn't get worse the further east/west you go.  I guess it comes down whether clothing and armor are strictly separate, or if some clothing acts like armor.   Can we wear a cloak over everything, perhaps in the back spot?  Is clothing a separate layer, that can be worn in combination with armor?  Or does the player have to choose between warmth and protection?  If my suggestion for a tier vs tier system were adopted, it would probably make it difficult to have armor be both clothing and armor at upper tiers.  Since most any armor that provides warmth is going to probably involve mostly leather/hides, which in current tier scheme at least, is very low tier.  Unless higher difficulty mobs provided 'high tier hides'. 

 

However, I could see maybe a system where each body location has a clothing spot, and an armor spot.  The clothing is made separately and does not provide damage protection.  It could vary from wool trousers to full on caveman style hides.  The armor is what provides protection against attacks.  The armor must constantly advance to keep up with the increasing tiers of mob attacks as you go east-west.   The clothing is of course tiered for degrees of cold (or warmth?), but not east-west.  The difference I suppose being that clothing wears out over time, whereas armor only wears out from damage.   So armor replacement is compelled by damage and tier progression.  Clothing replacement is compelled simply by wearing and using it. 

 

If different kinds of armor made it into the game (rather than everything simply being plate armor), they could have varying cross-compatability with clothing levels.  Chain mail could be worn with any clothing, from trousers to bear pelts.  But maybe plate armor can only be worn with light clothing, and so would not be very suitable for long exposed periods in extreme cold or heat (barring magical temperature regulation, of course).  Maybe there's a middle-ground armor that can't go with heavy pelts, but can go with most other stuff.  A cloak could perhaps be worn on the back over any kind of armor, so that even in plate armor, a player could have a bit of protection from the elements.

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In one sense I agree with you that clothing should not have a tier system, unless we are talking about better for cold or hot weather.

In another sense I think armor should affect the player body temperature. trying to wear full metal armor on a hot summer day should be really bad for you. Also I don't believe anyone can wear armor over really heavy winter winter fur. 

Will that create some challenges for the player? Yes, but I think that is good.

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I'd envision heavy furs being compatible with chain mail or leather, based on the chain mail being *under* the furs.  I would agree that heavy furs should be incompatible with heavy and medium armor. 

As for the mechanic, I'd guess there will be a way in which heavy clothing and armor makes one overheat.  Hadn't given much thought to that mechanic.  First let me disclose, I'm American, so my native temperature if Fahrenheit.  I'm going to try to use C, as that's what the game uses.  If I say things in Celsius that seem odd, that's why.

 

Could be a simple system, where Each piece of clothing and armor has a tier, which corresponds to the climate zone(s?) it's intended for.  There's 5 climate zone: tropical, sub-tropic, temperature, sub-arctic,and arctic.  The game simply checks each location and for each zone away from the idea, adds or subtracts to body temperature, or fatigue, or something.  So maybe plate armor is 'safe' in temperate and sub-arctic.  Beyond that you start to have ill effects.  Leather is 'safe' in tropical through sub-arctic. Something like that.  That wouldn't respond to seasons or temperature well though.

 

To respond better to actual temperature, a given piece of clothing has a 'safe' temperature range on it, and if the temperature is below, the player takes cold damage, scaled depending on how much below.  If the temperature is above, the player takes heat damage, or their water goes down faster, or their heatstroke/fatigue meter.  Whatever.  This can add up for the 5 different locations (if back is included).  Maybe wearing a wide brim hat in hot weather provides some artificial 'cooling' to offset other worn items or the general heat.  Heavy furs might be safe in the -30 to -5C range ( -22 to 23F).  Light cotton might be safe from 20 to 42C (68 to 107F).  Plate armor might have a safe range of 12 to 25C (54 to 77F).  Leather might be 15-30C (59 to 95F).  Etc.  Each piece of armor and clothing is checked, and if the ambient temperature is outside those ranges, things happen.  

 

MORE COMPLICATED SYSTEM

Or perhaps a more complicated system - each piece of clothing adds a set warmth value, and the total of all worn warmth clothing offsets the actual temperature the player experiences. 

So a player maybe has 20C of clothing on (note that this is not an actual temperature, this is merely added to the actual outside temperature).  It's -20C(-4F) ambient temperature outside.  A player produces perhaps 10C of body heat naturally.  Adding clothing plus body heat (30C) to the outside temperature results in 10C, which results in the player being at 10C(50F).  Chilly, but not freezing.  Maybe that puts the character in a range to get sick.  This could be signified by the player making sniffling or shivering sounds once in awhile.

 

However, if it the player wears those same cloths when it's 20C(68F) outside, the additional 30C puts them at 50C(122F) which is dangerously overheating.  In such weather a player needs to wear clothing that does not produce any heat.  So then their natural body heat puts them at 30C(86F) which is tolerable.  However, we should probably assume the player sweats in warm weather.  Apparently the human body starts to sweat at 37C, but this is an internal temperature.  Perhaps above 30C(77F) ambient temperature, the player's body natural reduces its heat output to 5C by sweating.  This gives a greater range with the same clothing.  This natural reduction may not happen with any clothing that provides much warmth (sweating is less effective when you're covered in thick clothes).  Another dis-incentive to wear warm clothes in hot weather.

 

Armor could also affect body temperature, but probably needs to mostly affect it by causing overheating in hot weather, and not much warmth in cold weather.  If most armors nullify sweating, that would be a way for them to exacerbate overheating while not providing actual warmth.  Then they could add maybe 2 or 3C per piece.  That might be enough to deal with cold but above freezing temperatures, but not enough to deal with below freezing.  It'd take a bit of balancing, to make the possible armor and clothing combos have sensible results, *if* clothing can be worn with armor.

 

I'd say it would be appropriate for all clothes and armor to add at least a little heat.  In a tropical climate, you could have light cotton clothing add 2C each, with a wide brim straw hat adding 0 or even a slight negative (the only exception).  That'd be a net +6 or less.  From what I read, a person is in danger of hypothermia, when naked, at ambient temperatures from 20C(60sF) on down.  There is a of course a wide variation based on physiology. Basically it seems like it might be reasonable for the player to target a perceived temperature between 20 and 35C ( 68 and 95F) or thereabouts.  If their perceived temperature, factoring in all clothing, falls outside that, then they can start to suffer ill effects.

 

So ya, there's some thoughts on how the mechanics might work.

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