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Darmo

Gems & gemology / lapidary skill

8 posts in this topic

Seeing talk of gems with relation to magic in another thread, I thought I might make this suggestion, which has actually been on my mind since I started playing, but was a suggestion without a purpose. In making this suggestion, the dev effort only really makes sense if gems have a use of some kind - possibly in a magic system.  If there's no use for gems, it's not worthwhile.  That said:

 

Players should not find gems the way they are now - faceted and beautiful.  They should be 'in the rough'.  It should be up to the player to make make them flawed, normal, flawless, or exquisite.  I think gems of a given type - ruby, amethyst, whatever - found in mining should all have the same graphic, and rather than a descriptor or quality, they get a carat weight, similar to how food has a weight. They could also have perhaps subtle hidden flaws, which, if gemology makes it into the game, could only be detected by a skilled gemologist, similar to how the as you get better at cooking you can better tell how good your sandwich is.  There could also be within each gem type different colors - also known only to a trained gemologist (albeit at lower levels than flaw detection).  irl, certain colors of a given type of gem are more valuable than others.  I think that gem value irl mostly depends on weight, flaws, color, and quality of faceting. 

 

This would of course require some new tools, mainly a "flat lap" - the tool used to facet gems.  This could be as simple as coating a quorn wheel with diamonds (use for kimberlite!) putting it in the quorn with the gem, hitting the wheel, and hoping something good comes out.  It would of course be awesome if it had it's own "professional" gui like metal smithing does. In any case, the finished gem will have a new lower carat weight (the better the gemologist, the less weight is lost), varying quality of cut, and if the gemologist has a high enough skill, maybe some of the original flaws are removed.

 

Now given that we don't even know what shape magic might take in TFC2, and I can't think of any other use for gems, I may be premature with this suggestion.  But I wanted to put it out there.  Nice finished gems *could* be made harder to get, if that served the purpose of game progression and/or multiplayer.

Edited by Darmo
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As a lapidary and gem enthusiast in reality, I fully agree with the idea of finding gems as rough stones and cutting them to the different qualities. Tying into the gems for magic, a Gemology/Lapidary skill could be the entry level skill for magical crafting. By skilling up and making better quality gems, more powerful magical objects/effects could be created? However, magic is not my primary interest for gems. I personally would like to see them as a crafting ingredients for ornamental versions of the different armors, and as place-able objects for decoration.

 

As far as mechanics, I feel that it would be very easy to mimic the process of gem-cutting, without making an overly complicated system.

For Example:

 

All gems would be mined/panned as rough quality versions of themselves.

The gem would then need to "cut" on a specialize block, such as the "Flat Lap" mentioned by Darmo above. Historically (and in modern times) copper would be the ideal material for the flat lap, except in the case of diamonds where cast iron is preferred. This process would be done using abrasive powder. While this could be made from diamonds if available, historically any hard abrasive mineral was used. Often these powders would be made from other, harder gems.

To get the abrasive powder a rough gem could be put through a Quern, or crafted with a hammer perhaps.

At this point the player would engage in the Gemology/Lapidary mini-game to cut the gem (similar in to smithing?). I feel that keeping it simple is better, so the gem should be finished in 1 step, as opposed to a realistic 5 or 6.

 

Gem cutting is about removing just the right amount of stone, never too little, or too much. As such a Gemology/Lapidary mini-game should create the opportunity for very low end results and very high end results, but without being random. The best thing I can think of is a moving slider that needs to be stopped at the precise moment to get a specific quality (kind of like the horse's jump meter). If stopped too soon/late a lower quality will be received. If the slider is not stopped at all the gem is lost. By ranking up the skill, the sweet spots for higher quality gems become larger/easier to land. This avoid RNG disappointments, makes it about player skill, and would more likely feel rewarding.

 

Anyway, thats my long-winded 2 cents. Thanks Darmo for bring up this great idea, I would love to see something involving the lapidary arts in TFC2.

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Since I made this topic, discussion has happened that makes it it seem like merchants will be a thing in TFC2.  So it seems like perhaps gems may be useable as money more or less.  So that's hopeful for gem useage.

 

We've also learned that ore veins will have a new behavior, more like actual veins.  I think this might make for a good argument for gems to be actual blocks, rather than random appearances.  They could appear in association with ores, as many RL gems do.  This would allow them to appear in small pockets, and the player would still be able to find them as long as they are adjacent to, or at least within propick range, of an ore vein, because it seems like veins might mostly be continuous now, rather than scattered all over the stone.  

 

This might help low tier metal veins remain of interest throughout the game.   As an example, if the player knows a certain gem is associated with copper, they may be more inclined to search through a copper vein, even if they have no great need of the copper itself.  From the perspective of limiting block numbers, it might be good if a specific gem is associated with a given ore IN COMBINATION with a given rock type.  So a certain gem only forms adjacent to iron that is in chalk or claystone.  That way there doesn't need to be 8 different textures for that one gem ore block.  Just the two that are in the associated stones.

 

LAPIDARY MECHANICS

As for actual mechanics, I think we could possibly have a 2-step process - and here I'd love to hear from Sayreg or anyone else who has actual experience.   But for the first step, maybe the player is trying to remove flaws from the rough stone.   I *think* that gemstones are cut with chisels, to come up with a rough shape for lapping?  Or maybe in the past anyway, before diamond saws?   So the player could have a workbench for this that has a slot for hammer and chisel.  And certain harder gemstones may require higher tier chisels, and/or remove more durability from lower tier chisels.  Perhaps a gemologist loup could be required - made of a piece of leather, a tuyere of any metal, and a piece of glass (properly polished glass if glassworking ever comes in)

STEP 1 - rough gem

The first actual minigame would be a simple rectangular gem face, and depending on the gemologist level of the player, certain flaws will show up.  Chief among these would be:

FISSURES - these would show up as lines across the entire surface.  Some are obvious at no skill, others only with some basic skill

GRAIN LINES - as fissures, but requires higher level skill to see, some only show up at top level

CARBONS - single pixel specs, lower levels see them

Crystal needle inclusions - a line of a few pixels - medium level skill to see

Crystal Inclusions - single pixels, requires higher level skill

Knots - a small cluster of pixels - visible with no to low skill

Clouds - a small cluster of pixels - visible at low to medium skill

So the player at low level can see some flaws, but there may be others that only a higher skil gemologist can see.  The player must make cuts to try and remove the flaws from the rough gem (we need a name for this intermediate step - cabochon isn't technically correct, but I'm not sure what other term would fit between the rough gem, and the finished gem, so for this post I'll refer to this intermediate step as a 'cab').    So, based on player skill, they get a cabochon of a certain weight.  ALSO, they may introduce further flaws, such as scratches, cavities, or cleavage.

So, the first step is all about the player's in-game skill, and what it lets them see, having a good enough chisel, and using up some of the durability.

 

STEP 2 - Faceting

For faceting, I like Sayreg's idea of a marker in motion, because a flat lap is in constant motion.   However, a single moving pointer seems a bit too simple.  I think a more complex system might be justified.

As a first optional step, the player choose a pattern for the cut.  Maybe there's several different ones, and which affect the value (and maybe other functions?).  Now, depending on which pattern they choose, it gets more difficult.  The basic game is two moving pointers (perhaps moving in a circle, like a flat lap?) that the player tries to "finish" by hitting the button when they line up.  And as Sayreg suggested, the closer the alignment, the better the result.  The higher the player skill, the more leeway for matching.   But there's more!

 

Higher difficulty patterns and more valuable gem material add more pointers and/or increase the speed!   So instead of matching up two, you're trying to match up 3, 4, or even more!  This would quickly become very difficult.  However, the player has options:

 

-Higher skill could reduce the number and speed of pointers possibly. 

-Also the material of the lap might play a major factor - a copper lap wears out fast and has many rings to match, a diamond lap lasts a very long time, and reduces the rings. 

- The player can use various abrasive slurries to decrease the speed of the rings.  This could be a good use for currently unused materials, or to maintain some useage for low tier metals.  These speed reductions are only temporary though as the slurry wears off, so the player must act fast.   Each time slurry is added removes a small amount of carat from the finished stone, wears down the lap a bit, and has a chance to add a scratch flaw to the finished product, so the incentive is to use as little slurry as possible.

 

 

 

In general, I think that pointer speed should be mostly a function of slurry, with number of rings a function of mostly equipment, and the 'hit area' a function mostly of the game skill. 

The end result would be a minigame that is possibly even more difficult to master than smithing, and maintains some of the urgency via slurry use, and yet it is not just smithing with different button names.

In this way, player with RL skill could get acceptable results from low grade equipment, on medium grade stones.  But low skill and low equipment should be able to keep high value stones out of reach, because the player will have to use huge amounts of slurry to slow the low tier flat lap enough to facet their 10-moving-pointer diamond in a fancy pattern.  There's honestly enough factors, this system is almost limitless in terms of gradating it for skill, materials, tools, etc.   It could be a powerful addition to the magic system, if magic is largely based off gems and crystals.

Edited by Darmo
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Finding gems associated with the appropriate stone/ore types would offer a much more realistic approach to acquiring them. One of the major way gems are found around the world is also is gem gravels, similarly to how gold is found in streams and rivers. To represent this ingame, a mechanic similar to the TFC1 sluice would be good. Your pan/sluice(and maybe even shovel?) detects what ores/gems would be present in that geological area, then only those kinds of gems would be found through panning/sluicing/shoveling gravels.
 

As for real gem faceting, a stone will usually go through the following steps.


1. Preform - Large flaws such as cracks, various inclusions, poorly colored areas are removed. This is done through sawing with a circular trim saw and then grinding away flaws for the initial shape

2. Bulk removal - Once the gem is mounted into a faceting machine, large portions are ground away to achieve the actual outline and approximate size of the stone. Very course abrasive slurry is used here.

3. Cutting - Using a finer grit size than step 2, the large defining facets of the stone are shaped

4. Finer cutting - Using a finer slurry yet, the small detail facets will be added and all facets finalized

5. Pre-polish - Each facet is then retouched with a finer grit yet to give a finish that will accept a polish

6. Polishing - Using extremely fine compound of various oxides or diamond, all the facets are brought to a very fine polish. On some very hard or very valuable stones, they may receive a "pre-polish polish", before being polished to  the final highgrade finsih

7. Transfer - Steps 2-6 were only to complete 1 side of the stone. The stone is then precisely transferred to allow access to the opposite half. Steps 2-6 are repeated.

8. Cleaning - The final stone is then cleaned of dust, glue, wax, shellac, finger prints, etc. (all these may have accumulated on the stone during the cutting). It is now ready for use.

 

Having a 2 step in game process could be pretty manageable as Darmo out lined. Step one being Preforming, step 2 being Faceting/Cutting. As to the use of a chisel for step one, the only historic application for a chisel is cleaving off portions of the stone along fissures (this is how all the historic diamonds of the world were cleaned of external cracks or flaws) or along the crystals natural cleavage planes (if any). Most internal flaws (inclusions) are removed by grinding.

 

For ingame mechanics all these step one could look like this:

1. Preforming

1. You either find an included (flawed) or cracked version of the stone. Crafting cracked gem with a chisel creates two haves, being identical flawed stones.

2. Flawed/included stones are then worked on the Lapidary block using a preform setting.

3. Preforming could using a 10x10 knapping interface where a series of flaws are randomly dispersed around the stone. Only tiles along the edges could be removed. Therefore, to remove a flaw half way into the stone, a large portion from 1 connected area must be worked away to reach it.

4. The final percentage left determines the weight of the gem, where the number/size of flaws left affect final quality

2. Faceting/Cutting

I really like the idea of choosing a gem cut (A gem cut is a combination of shapes and styles. Shapes: Round, Square, Triangle, Pear, Oval, etc. Styles: Brilliant, Barion, Step, Mirror, Princess, etc.), with the complexity of the cut determines how the sliders move, and how many there are.

So:

1. Add slurry/abrasive to the interface

2. Select Faceting/cutting mode

3. Select shape/style/cut

4. Stop the various sliders at the appropriate times

5. Out comes the final gem

 

After writing all this I got thinking about the ingame implications of having gems be affected by weight, inclusions, and cut qaulity. Practically speaking this could lead to zillions of unstackable, unique items, which becomes a storage nightmare. In my real world gem collection, I have stones ranging from very small to fairly sizable. Storing these stones takes up a fair bit of space as they are all individually sorted and boxed. To keep it simple ingame I think keeping/exapnding the stackable discreet quality system that exists in TCF1 would be a much more practical approach. 

 

During the crafting process things like flaws, size/weight, cut quality/complexity, and player skill could all be averaged together to create the final level of success. For example, a small cracked stone which was not cleaved with a chisel, had no flaws preformed off, and was faceted by only hitting the easiest mark would default be a "Chipped" quality (to reference the old system). Where as a stone which was large, had all the inclusions removed, and was cut by hitting all the most difficult marks would be "Exquisite" to "Flawless", depending on player skill.

 

I also feel "Flawless" quality should be the top end of the quality spectrum. In Gemology we talk about stones which are IF grade, meaning Internally Flawless. This means that even under magnification, trained technicians cannot find any flaws.

 

So, thats enough rambling for the moment. Really enjoying the discussing Darmo. I hope the Devs. do something fun with gems!

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Preforming could using a 10x10 knapping interface where a series of flaws are randomly dispersed around the stone. Only tiles along the edges could be removed. Therefore, to remove a flaw half way into the stone, a large portion from 1 connected area must be worked away to reach it.

So like, if they remove any given box with a flaw, they have to remove all the other boxes either in that row or that column, and they have to start at the outsides?  That's probably a lot easier to code that what I'd been thinking, but still maintains the idea of letting player's code-skill help them out.  I like it.

 

 

P4. Stop the various sliders at the appropriate times

Ah, see I'd been thinking stop the various sliders all at once, trying to get them all aligned as closely as possible with one button click.  Which could be very difficult, and why lots of slurry would be need for more than a few pointers.  Stopping them one at a time would be easier, but I guess if there's multiple sliders it would still increase the time it takes, and you could add more pointers overall without making it insane difficult.  I do think it'd be better if there were two moving points to match at any given time, as opposed to just one moving point and a stationary target.  Maybe save the more difficult all-moving matchup for magic crafting or something...

 

 

Practically speaking this could lead to zillions of unstackable, unique items, which becomes a storage nightmare.... To keep it simple ingame I think keeping/expanding the stackable discreet quality system that exists in TCF1 would be a much more practical approach.

I guess I don't see it as a big problem.  That kind of already happens with smithing tool heads.  You go from being able to cast 8 bronze pickaxe heads and carry them in a single vessel slot, to having each one turn out different due to the durability bonus from smithing, so then you need two entire vessels to carry those 8 steel heads, at least until you've maxed your skill maybe (I've never maxed my toolsmithing skill so I'm not sure).

 

As long as gems have a use, they wouldn't necessarily build up into an insane number.   There could also be a specialized gem storage cabinet that only accepts gems, but has as many or more slots as a double chest, while only taking one block.   And a portable gem case that has as many slots as a single chest (with some stack limits).  Both would not accept rough gems.  Maybe they accept preformed ones, maybe not.

 

If simple descriptors were the order of the day, I'd suggest not using ones that are specific to a flaw, like cracked or chipped.   Just a more generalized gradation using words like inferior, poor, average, beautiful, excellent, gorgeous, exquisite, flawless.

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So like, if they remove any given box with a flaw, they have to remove all the other boxes either in that row or that column, and they have to start at the outsides?  That's probably a lot easier to code that what I'd been thinking, but still maintains the idea of letting player's code-skill help them out.  I like it.

I was thinking something like this:

flaw%201_zpscb8awzu3.png

Flaw in R2-C2

 

flaw%202_zpsnwr02lob.png

Only tiles with 3 or less adjacent tiles can be removed, thus starting the player on the outside and in the corner, then working their way into the stone.

 

Flaw3_zpscigxzcnb.png

With the flaw removed then gem is preformed and ready for cutting

 

Sorry for the crude pictures

 

I recommend this system because it mimics life, a rough gem with a flaw dead center is usually not worth cutting. So much of the stone would need to be preformed off to get that flaw, usually the stone would just be split and made into two. Where as a gem with a flaw in 1 corner could just have the corner ground off.

 

Ah, see I'd been thinking stop the various sliders all at once, trying to get them all aligned as closely as possible with one button click.  Which could be very difficult, and why lots of slurry would be need for more than a few pointers.  Stopping them one at a time would be easier, but I guess if there's multiple sliders it would still increase the time it takes, and you could add more pointers overall without making it insane difficult.  I do think it'd be better if there were two moving points to match at any given time, as opposed to just one moving point and a stationary target.  Maybe save the more difficult all-moving matchup for magic crafting or something...

I think stopping one slider at a time is more true to life. When a gem is cut, each facet is worked into position, then the next facet in the design can be cut. A gem cutting mini-game should be methodical and controllable, just like the real thing.

 

I guess I don't see it as a big problem.  That kind of already happens with smithing tool heads.  You go from being able to cast 8 bronze pickaxe heads and carry them in a single vessel slot, to having each one turn out different due to the durability bonus from smithing, so then you need two entire vessels to carry those 8 steel heads, at least until you've maxed your skill maybe (I've never maxed my toolsmithing skill so I'm not sure).

 

As long as gems have a use, they wouldn't necessarily build up into an insane number.   There could also be a specialized gem storage cabinet that only accepts gems, but has as many or more slots as a double chest, while only taking one block.   And a portable gem case that has as many slots as a single chest (with some stack limits).  Both would not accept rough gems.  Maybe they accept preformed ones, maybe not.

 

As to the tool head argument ... I've found that smithing tools is really only relevant starting with wrought iron, or tier 4 and beyond. At this point tools last so long, that you only really need to make a few at time. Storage isn't too much of an issue. I actively collect the gems in-game (surprise surprise) and often fill a chest or more with different gems. If a group of players were suddenly all collecting gems, I feel like they would end up needing a warehouse for them all. While they would get used up through various means, I still see this as a potential problem. What if gems are consumed for magical attacks? How many gems is one player going to cram into their inventory. While a quiver style gem case does solve for this somewhat, I'm still skeptical.

 

If simple descriptors were the order of the day, I'd suggest not using ones that are specific to a flaw, like cracked or chipped.   Just a more generalized gradation using words like inferior, poor, average, beautiful, excellent, gorgeous, exquisite, flawless.

 

I really like this set of simple descriptors. Eight categories still gives tons of room for variance, but keeps it simple. Where it up to me, I'd go with these eight for sure. At this point I was I was a modder so I could make a system like this myself.

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Ah, so in your gridded example, maybe you can only remove any individual box if it has at least two sides 'exposed'.   That would mean you'd have to start from the corners, and would prevent people from starting on edges, or in the middle.  That's cool, and I like how it would sort of trend towards an octagon or diamond shape if there were flaws in all corners.

As for the pointers, I see your point.  I was trying to make it into something that required some real skill, like blacksmithing does.  Blacksmithing requires an irl ability to multitask and balance a lot of 'coals in the fire', as it were, and also a lot of logic.   I was going for something that required good hand-eye coordination and logic and timing.  But there's definitely nothing wrong with the single matches at a time.  It could still respond well to skill, equipment, and the other stuff.

 

One of the interesting notions to me, is the idea of there actually being people with different professions on multiplayer servers.   Right now there's only one real profession.  Nothing else is remotely so time consuming or skill demanding as smithing (well, .  In my mind I was ultimately seeing a player economy line with smiths/miners' prospecting skill affecting the number of flaws in the raw gem ore, which they trade to a gemologist, who refines it and sells it to a magician.  The idea being that the smith, gemologist, and magician don't really have the time to master all these skills individually.   Unlikely, I know, but it's fun to think about.

 

As for uses, any magic implications are definitely up in the air.  I wasn't thinking so much of them being an individual spell component, but that you might for instance use them to make a wand.  And the carat weight of the gem might dictate how many charges, while the quality of the gem could influence the power of the spell, with a minimum quality to use the gem at all in magic.  Maybe Excellent or above in the examples I gave.  So one gem would provide multiple spells, rather than requiring a gem for each spell.

 

Gems also might be used in alchemy possibly, in a crushed form.  Assuming alchemy is ever a thing of course.

 

Beyond those, if there's traders and/or boats that charge for passage in the game, then the player would theoretically just be selling/trading the gems in order to buy goods or passage to other islands.  There's not really any game mechanic that would force the player the hoard them.  It would actually be interesting if boat captains only accepted gems as payment.  Then the player would either make their own, or buy gems from a gem merchant.  If a player wants to hoard gems they can, but I think systems could be designed such that it's not required.

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The potential for utter failure (because worthless inferior gems aren't bad enough) could be added to a system where only one slider was moving at a time. Perhaps once you start you must hit the mark before it reaches then end. Once you stop the slider the next one starts immediately. If at any point the slider reaches the end with out being stopped the gem is ruined and lost? This would actually make it harsher than current iteration of smithing in my opinion.

 

Depending on what sort of NPC system is added to TFC2, gems as an ingame currency would be pretty cool. I have always enjoyed using ingame items as server currency, but many servers tend to use a currency plugin for player-player transactions. 

 

Alchemy, magic, NPCs. It is all pretty up in the air at the moment, but what ever form gems take in TFC2 I would really like to see it more fleshed out than TFC1.

 

 

One of the interesting notions to me, is the idea of there actually being people with different professions on multiplayer servers.   Right now there's only one real profession.  Nothing else is remotely so time consuming or skill demanding as smithing (well, .  In my mind I was ultimately seeing a player economy line with smiths/miners' prospecting skill affecting the number of flaws in the raw gem ore, which they trade to a gemologist, who refines it and sells it to a magician.  The idea being that the smith, gemologist, and magician don't really have the time to master all these skills individually.   Unlikely, I know, but it's fun to think about.

 

Communities where players specialize in specific roles are very fun. On the Feudalfirma server I play on we have done that to a small degree. A couple smiths, I'm a cook/butcher, a couple farmers. I haven't tried to convince anyone to switch to gems as a currency, but that thought has occurred.

 

One way for the Devs to encourage role specialization, such as gemcutting would be to make each skill so in-depth that no one would have the time/effort to master them all. Somehow I don't see this happening on a two Dev minecraft mod. But like you say, its fun to think about.

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