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Shiphty

Security vs. Adventure

17 posts in this topic

I know the subject of whether torches should go out is old hat and different ideas of protection have been talked to death but I've been thinking about the subject and I don't want to talk about a game mechanic so much as the desires behind the different inclinations.

 

We all have different play styles, different desires, different ideas of what is fun and what is not.  Because we're game nerds (if you're playing TFCraft you're a nerd, plain and simple... no need to be ashamed) we take our game time seriously and it can be difficult not to get dogmatic about how games should be played.  Rather than say "I like to play TFCraft this way" we are more inclined to insist "this is the way TFCraft should be played and if you disagree, you're obviously not cut out for TFCraft, go play creative vanilla."

 

I think that way.  I disdain playing creative minecraft.  I see it as lazy, cheap, and flat out cheating.  I also see it as immensely boring.  Where's the challenge?  Why not go one better and pay someone to play for you?

 

However, it isn't fair.  Minecraft is a game, TFCraft is a game, if someone is having an absolute blast just flying around and spawning whatever they want to build with, what does that have to do with me?  Good for them!

 

Now, TFCraft is a more challenging version of minecraft than most other mods or modpacks.  And among all the challenging modpacks I think TFCraft keeps the challenge level high the longest.  It makes sense then that this mod would draw folks who enjoy challenge.  And that might explain why many folks involved in the forum exchanges tend to push for more difficulty whenever any possible or actual change is being discussed.

 

I like challenge or I wouldn't be playing TFCraft or writing on this forum but I like accomplishment as well.  Perhaps that's a moot statement, who doesn't like accomplishment?  Maybe I should phrase it like this; I like moving beyond challenges, conquering them.

 

I suspect that every TFCrafter gets a thrill out of surviving the beginning of the game.  The mobs are tough and you have nothing.  Resources are hard won.  You have to scratch and claw for every technological advance.

 

Having said that, I like the sense of really having arrived once I have carved out a piece of safety, civilization, and abundance in TFCraft's untamed land.  I think torch forests are ugly and I go to great lengths in my builds to eliminate them as much as possible while still making mob spawning impossible in my house and on land that I tame.  However, I would rather see the torches than be constantly interrupted in my building and crafting by surprise visits.

 

I'm not writing here to suggest that TFCraft or TFCraft 2 needs some kind of mechanic whereby a player can make land permanently safe (though I do really like that idea) I'm just trying to articulate the desire behind the torch forest crowd.  If there was a way to make land civilized and settled, difficult or easy, I'd go that route rather than hinder the suspension of disbelief with torches everywhere.

 

But there are some folks who seem to be on the other side of the fence.  Please do not allow me to misrepresent you but it seems to me that you guys are driven by two motivations.  One is simple believability.  Torches can't burn forever, so torches shouldn't burn forever.  Plain and simple.  The consequences of that are what they are.  The second is perhaps a desire for more difficult or challenging game play.  You like the fact that you might have a creeper spawn in your living room while you're out.

 

Tied to the second are what I'll call sub-motivations.  Some folks like the idea of scratching and clawing so much that they don't want to move on from it.  They don't want to move up the tech tree very much.  And some folks like the grind, everything should be drawn out and take much longer to accomplish.  "Can we need to eliminate physical and liquid waste?"   "Can we need to bathe?"  "Can we lose our teeth unless we floss?"

 

I'm teasing a little bit.  I hope I didn't misconstrue anyone's position.

 

I think that there's a little bit of each position in all of us.  It depends upon the issue.

 

Anyone have any thoughts?

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Eliminate liquid waste?  Would we then have the R. Kelly achievement?  :lol:

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I am a realistic, which means I agree with the torches burning down, but at the same time I would like for some permanent lights, or at least very long burning lights. Is nice that we have the olive oil lamp, but I really think we should have more light sources, like candles and other fuel lamps.

But either with torches or with lamps, the problem persists, either you will have torch forests, or lamp forests. I am against both of then.

Not really a fan of the protection method, where some protection is build over time spent in a chunk. If you have a bigger town and not visit a corner of it in some time. you can still have mobs spawning there.

What I really would like is for a system where mobs would not spawn over player placed blocks. So the mob spawning would not only check for light level, but also to see if the floor was placed by a player.

Before anyone asks, tfc already has a system to detect if a dirt block was placed by the player, is part of the farming, and it was introduced to avoid  player just placing new dirt blocks, instead of rotating crops. So when you place a dirt block, that block has a tag somewhere there that tells the game that it was placed by a player. 

For most of the blocks in the game they are always player placed, so mobs would not spawn over smooth stone, bricks or wood planks. In essence any block created or placed by the player.

A system like that would make the mod a lot more believable. You would still have to build fences so most mobs would not enter and walls with hang overs to protect against spiders. but inside your settlement the illumination would be utilitarian and aesthetic.

Maybe I should have made this into a suggestion, but this subject have been talked so much, that maybe here it will be tolerated a bit more.

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I'm pretty sure there ISNT a tag if dirt was placed by the player. I'm almost certain it is that if the block is a grass block when hoed, it gets the nutrients, if it is a dirt block when hoed, it gets none.

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I'm pretty sure there ISNT a tag if dirt was placed by the player. I'm almost certain it is that if the block is a grass block when hoed, it gets the nutrients, if it is a dirt block when hoed, it gets none.

 

 

The last time I tried to place dirt it began with zero nutrients.  It takes player placed dirt a long time to gather nutrients and be useful for gardening.

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http://wiki.terrafirmacraft.com/Dirt#Nutrients

 

"Nutrients are diminished by growing crops in the soil and are replenished over time by either letting the plots "fallow" for a season or by planting your crops in cycles, choosing a crop that has a different nutrient requirement than the ones that are depleted in the earth. Dirt blocks will have no nutrients when tilled, while grass blocks will have full nutrients."

 

Pay close attention to how it says "Dirt blocks" and how it does not say "Player placed dirt blocks"

 

 

Before anyone asks, tfc already has a system to detect if a dirt block was placed by the player, is part of the farming, and it was introduced to avoid  player just placing new dirt blocks, instead of rotating crops. So when you place a dirt block, that block has a tag somewhere there that tells the game that it was placed by a player. 

 

No. It does not have a system like that. There's absolutely no difference in the game between player placed dirt and naturally generated dirt.

 

I'm pretty sure there ISNT a tag if dirt was placed by the player. I'm almost certain it is that if the block is a grass block when hoed, it gets the nutrients, if it is a dirt block when hoed, it gets none.

 

This is correct.

 

The last time I tried to place dirt it began with zero nutrients.  It takes player placed dirt a long time to gather nutrients and be useful for gardening.

 

It also takes regular dirt a long time to gather nutrients, because they are literally the same thing.

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I am sorry guys, Kitty told me before about that, and I totally forgot. I guess it would still be possible to create a system like that, but it would require creating duplicates of the dirt blocks, kind of like the difference between logs in a tree and player placed logs. Unless I am totally wrong again. My idea still is to have a way for mob spawning to only occur on naturally generated terrain.

Since I am no java Coder, I cant say how hard it would be to code that.

I just think it would be a better solution for how mobs spawn then just light level.

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Another approach might be to employ whatever mechanic is used by different servers to make certain areas free from mob spawning.

 

Perhaps some kind of multi-block structure... totems or something like that... which marks off an area in which mobs cannot spawn.

Edited by Shiphty
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We are using Towny in our server, it works fine, but I think maybe too good. Once you claim a chunck no mobs will spawn on it and if some wander inside they will despawn quickly. I think it takes all of the danger away, so in the next map reset we are talking about changing the settings, so even though no mobs will spawn inside your town, theywill be able to come into it, so you will have to build fences and walls. It will make the game more realistic, and give a reason for people to build walls around towns.

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We are using Towny in our server, it works fine, but I think maybe too good. Once you claim a chunck no mobs will spawn on it and if some wander inside they will despawn quickly. I think it takes all of the danger away, so in the next map reset we are talking about changing the settings, so even though no mobs will spawn inside your town, theywill be able to come into it, so you will have to build fences and walls. It will make the game more realistic, and give a reason for people to build walls around towns.

 

Yeah, the mobs despawning wouldn't be for me.  If you don't build some kind of defense the baddies should be able to get to you.

 

Another problem is the question of whether the town protection goes all the way down to bedrock.  It's one thing to have protection where you've actually built up and civilized a place but if you didn't go down and clean out those caves... they should still be crawling with nastiness.

 

Another plugin I saw which kinda sorta addressed this issue had protection stones which you could buy and place, the protection, depending on the level of stone you bought, went out a certain radius in all directions from where you placed the stone.  I don't remember the name of the plugin though.

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Unfortunately most of Minecraft works as chunks, so if you disable mob spawning in a chunk, it goes all the way down to bedrock. Using the Towny method at least the mobs would be able to walk into a protected chunk, so there is still the risk of finding mobs when in caves or mines, even if you are under your town.

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I personally feel that light as spawn protection doesn't really fit well in TerraFirmaCraft. It's mostly OK in vanilla Minecraft, because people don't expect buildings IRL and in survival Minecraft to be very closely related. In TFC, however, we tend to want believabilaty through realism. I, at least, would like to be able to, say, have a dark cellar, or turn out the lamp when I go to bed, without worrying about being randomly blown up, shot, or bitten to death. There would have to be some other system, at least while we still have "fantasy" mobs spawning in huge numbers on the surface.

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Hmm... idea.

 

Maybe certain man-made blocks should add spawn protection to the area? Not over time, like player spending time in a chunk. Just some amount is added every time they are placed, and it goes away if the block is removed.

 

The more advanced the block, the more protection it would give (by "more" I mean both the probability/rate of spawning mobs and the area it works on - neighbouring chunks). Exact values would have to be carefully considered, but the general idea is that wooden planks and chiseled stone should give less than stone brick blocks, and those less than fire brick blocks, and those less than a bloomery block, etc...

 

This way, if you build a castle or a factory, the immediate area and some surrounding area should be completely protected, but if you still live in a small hut, while the zombie will not spawn on top of you when you lay in bed, it CAN still spawn outside your door.

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while the zombie will not spawn on top of you when you lay in bed, it CAN still spawn outside your door.

 

Just a side note, mobs use a specific radius around players for spawning, so you'll never have one spawn on top of you while you lay in bed. The other issue with implementing a spawn protection system based on block types is that in TFC2 there will be dungeons and fortresses that are made out of those same types of blocks, and we obviously want mobs to be spawning in them.

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Just a side note, mobs use a specific radius around players for spawning, so you'll never have one spawn on top of you while you lay in bed. The other issue with implementing a spawn protection system based on block types is that in TFC2 there will be dungeons and fortresses that are made out of those same types of blocks, and we obviously want mobs to be spawning in them.

 

I didn't mean it quite this literary, more like spawning too close for comfort ;)

 

Dungeons! YAY!!!!!

 

But it can still be done. Those will be generated by worldgen, not placed by player. I've never messed with any worldgen stuff in Minecraft, but aren't those situations distinguishable? Just don't do the spawn protection code if it's worldgen?

 

(if I'm wrong then this is probably not a feasible idea after all)

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But it can still be done. Those will be generated by worldgen, not placed by player. I've never messed with any worldgen stuff in Minecraft, but aren't those situations distinguishable? Just don't do the spawn protection code if it's worldgen?

 

(if I'm wrong then this is probably not a feasible idea after all)

 

This is actually a super common misconception. There's no way to track if a block is player placed versus world gen without either making every block a tile entity (which will cause a lot of lag), or create duplicates of every block in the registry.

 

The most common variation of this, which has been corrected multiple times on this forum and yet somehow still gets spread around is that "player placed" dirt has no nutrients when tilled. In reality, all dirt has no nutrients when tilled, and all grass has full nutrients when tilled, and we have absolutely no tracking of player placed versus world gen.

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You have said many times no to duplicating blocks so we could have a difference between world generated blocks and player placed blocks. I understand that it would use up a lot of block id's. But what actually would be the problem with that?

Is there a limit on how many ID's a mod can use?

In my mind to be free of the light level mechanic when spawning mobs would be a great achievement for tfc.

Can you imagine? once you build something you know no mob would ever spawn in there.

You would still need to fence or wall your towns, and maybe even have the spawning distance from the player increased, so mobs would spawn even if farther.

My point is not to make the mod easier, I just really dislike the light level feature and feel that creating the protection system was a way to minimize the annoyance of having to illuminate everything. 

BTW genuinely curious here, I have no idea what kind of issues having too many ID's would cause. 

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