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Miner239

Regional Difficulty

57 posts in this topic

I made a spreadsheet. Go get it here.

 

Basically, the more you go from x=0, the stronger the monsters become. This is realized using a points system. More points can be awarded for mobs that spawn further from x0.

 

For example, a zombie(i'll always use zombies) that spawn on x1000 can somehow have only 45 points, which gives 16 HP, 0.05 m/s speed, 0.4 damage, 0.5% armor, 2.5 regen, and drops 8.6 xp (and 44.5 mana).

 

But it can also have 1834 points, which gives 656 HP, 0.2 m/s, 200 attack, 5.8% armor, 12.6 HP/s, and drops 24.3 xp (and 223.4 mana).

 

Some tries for x500:

Health Speed Attack Armor  Armor% Regen E. HP Mana     Exp  Rating623.92 4.442 72.67  111.07 10.00  5.90  693.2 83.78439 15.4 437.84488.35 4.626 59.21  161.37 13.89  9.22  567.2 117.2759 18.3 772.76650.18 4.534 47.55  133.44 11.77  15.17 736.9 116.8746 18.3 768.75568.80 4.516 75.37  109.21 9.85   10.63 630.9 92.76063 16.3 527.61604.48 4.465 39.91  140.71 12.34  11.83 689.5 97.69393 16.8 576.94649.27 4.590 41.21  132.80 11.72  12.52 735.5 114.5798 18.1 745.80596.80 4.653 42.93  125.40 11.14  16.23 671.6 127.2214 19.1 872.21526.01 4.487 41.11  112.48 10.11  7.56  585.2 70.9531  14   309.53

 

And some for x2000:

Health  Speed Attack Armor  Armor% Regen E. HP  Mana     Exp  Rating1151.32 4.765 361.61 227.32 18.52  17.46 1413.0 365.4345 29.5 3254.35829.28  4.844 378.23 174.24 14.84  35.05 973.8  416.2044 31   3762.04539.46  4.565 155.84 148.91 12.96  13.96 619.8  146.4339 20.3 1064.34886.74  4.721 59.16  238.30 19.24  26.20 1098.1 284.4623 26.7 2444.62504.12  4.435 57.46  100.94 9.17   5.91  555.0  63.06491 12.9 230.65697.05  4.703 194.83 183.08 15.48  21.79 824.7  244.5301 25.2 2045.301355.69 5.172 161.68 141.57 12.40  15.58 1547.6 403.5027 30.6 3635.031276.20 5.026 88.45  171.24 14.62  11.11 1494.7 319.5543 28   2795.54

 

The chance is equal. Max limit on points is twice times absolute(x). 

Edited by Miner239
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This is already planned and has been heavily discussed in IRC.

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Oh, it is? Sorry, then.

 

EDIT: At least, can we discuss the implementation of the system here? Because the roadmap of TFC2 isn't really laid out anywhere here.

Edited by Miner239
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Yes, this topic can be used for discussion. I just wanted to make it clear that the basics of the system have already been planned out. And the main reasons why the roadmap isn't laid out anywhere is because many developers of personal projects like to make important decisions for themselves and get everything thoroughly fleshed out before presenting it for criticism.

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This scares me but I won't knock it till I try it.

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New tiers of tools, weapons, and buildings will surely help on conquering islands. Never fear. You also level up, don't you?

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"Leveling up" means having more hit points.  You don't hit harder or faster or have better armor from gaining levels.  I'm not complaining and I'm not necessarily against this (I enjoyed Vechs' CTM Super Hostile maps) but I will say that it seems to me that some folks are way more into combat in TFC and regular minecraft than I am.  I see combat as a spice added to a food I like whereas I think some folks see it as either a large side dish (mashed potatoes to the game's steak) or even the main coarse.

 

My version of combat usually involves outsmarting the bad guys.  I enjoy a challenge so, as I said, I'm not necessarily against the greater difficulty, but if I'm constantly going toe-to-toe with zombies and/or being jumped by them while at home, I've either failed or I'm playing the wrong game.

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"Leveling up" in this context means getting better gear so you do hit harder, have more hit points, and have more protection from armor.

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Actually Kitty, first her referenced the better gear... and then he said that you ALSO level up.  He didn't mean better gear but the actual levels.

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I'm not him, so I don't really know. But I read that as "You level up in addition to the mobs leveling up" not "You level up in addition to everything I just previously said"

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I'm interested to see how the island thing plays out.  Bioxx said here

 

"The current intent is to make sure that, at least for the first few islands, there will be some required resources present so that no bottlenecks occur. As for the rock layers, each island is its own single rock layer at this time. Fear not, there are plans for deeper rock layers on each island, but nothing that I want to reveal quite yet.."

 

Very intriguing.  "First few islands" meaning north-south?  Or east-west as well?   In the current game, traveling 4000 blocks or so, you usually encounter 2 or 3 stone types.  1 top layer in that whole area seems daunting, especially if your second layer is diorite, gabbro, or granite.  But that's TFC1 thinking I guess.  Sounds like deep rock layers will have something new about them...

 

I'm wondering if the plan is to compel players to venture east and west, for example via graphite layers only being outside of 'X-0', or will the player, on the balance of probability, be able to live out their career, blue steel and all, on the first one or two islands? A single top layer seems like the player will compelled to build their early base out of whatever stone they have, as opposed to the current game, where I think layer changes are more common, and the player has more choice.  Can the players expect to have a more limited stone pallet available for building, for a given amount of travel, I wonder? I feel like currently the player eventually 'settles in', and has a big base they've spent a lot of time on, and don't want to leave.  so in the SP game, it kind of feels like travelling more than 1 island east or west would be daunting, unless the player is willing to start over with their base, or there's teleporation magic, etc. 

 

In multiplayer, it gets more interesting.  There could be a little crowding in the original 'safe' zone.  As opposed to currently where, on larger servers like Happydiggers, you just wander far enough in whatever direction to get to an area where you have room.  It sounds like in TFC2, large multiplayer servers might require more cooperation, in order to tame violent lands for expansion?  Definitely interested to see where things go.

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"First few islands" means east-west only. All islands going North/South have the same difficulty level. The difference between the islands going North/South is just climate.

 

The islands are also tiered going east-west. The whole "only one rock layer" also means that on island 0, you won't be able to find anything beyond tier 0 materials. So if you want to get all the way up to tier 6, you'll have to venture all the way to a tier 6 island.

Edited by Kittychanley
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I'm still working out the specifics honestly. But, as Kitty said, the difficulty ramp will be occurring as you travel east/west. The difficulty involved in North/South will be purely environmental. The current idea is to scale the islands in such a way that you'll need to have conquered the current island in order to attain the materials to progress to the next tier of islands. As for damage scaling and the like, I'm considering using a system that will scale mob stats by the power of 2. It's simple and keeps an even progression.

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Sorry, ya, I knew the north-south wouldn't vary in mob difficulty, that was clear from the earlier post.  I was just pondering about general stone and mineral occurrence between islands, and how that might affect the amount of travel required to 'tech up.'  I was imaging how far one might have to travel, just based on random stone occurrence in large areas, with possibly certain key minerals like graphite being east-west limited.   But it sounds like current thinking is a more structured east-west mineral (or something else) progression than I'd imagined, with maybe even copper and bronze being X-limited.  Which is interesting, and will definitely ramp up difficulty.  So many questions...but I feel like I'm prying too deep here, so I'll shut up.

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What about having a color and/or texture variation on the mobs depending on their level? Assuming we will still be using the same kind of mobs we have now, meaning zombies and skeletons, we would be able to identify their level from far away and best judge if we should fight or flee.

BTW, does that mean we are abandoning the old project of replacing monsters with animals? Just wondering, and whatever is decided we will just be glad to have the mod.

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Bioxx said "you'll need to have conquered the current island in order to attain the materials to progress to the next tier of islands."

Does that mean that once you have "conquered" an isldn it will stay "conquered"?  as is no more hostile mobs spawning?

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Bioxx said "you'll need to have conquered the current island in order to attain the materials to progress to the next tier of islands."

Does that mean that once you have "conquered" an isldn it will stay "conquered"?  as is no more hostile mobs spawning?

 

I doubt it.

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I'm not him, so I don't really know. But I read that as "You level up in addition to the mobs leveling up" not "You level up in addition to everything I just previously said"

Both. You level up in addition to everything I previously said, but the mobs level up too. That's what I mean.

 

As for damage scaling and the like, I'm considering using a system that will scale mob stats by the power of 2. It's simple and keeps an even progression.

Bioxx, will that mean tier 6 mobs will have 64x the stats of tier 0(t0 zombie:450, t6: 28800) and tier 6 tools have 64x stats too(Stone axe:61, color Steel: 3904, TFC1:)? Won't that be extremely OP when you come back to your base? 

 

Also, any plans for y-dependent difficulty? The deeper you are, the easier mob spawning is and the harder the mobs are.

 

 

Bioxx said "you'll need to have conquered the current island in order to attain the materials to progress to the next tier of islands."

Does that mean that once you have "conquered" an isldn it will stay "conquered"?  as is no more hostile mobs spawning?

I think it's conquered as in 'You now have the materials needed to easily defeat mobs here'.

Edited by Miner239
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Bioxx said "you'll need to have conquered the current island in order to attain the materials to progress to the next tier of islands."

Does that mean that once you have "conquered" an island it will stay "conquered"?  as is no more hostile mobs spawning?

here is an earlier post on the subject.   The relevant part being "Before an island is pacified, building/living there should be impossible."  This could mean a lot of things.  I'd guess that until the mobs' fortress or whatever is pacified, their spawn numbers are greatly increased.  Possibly they have better equipment as well.  So orcs with bows and steel armor and weapons are a serious threat.  But once you've broken their leader or fortress or whatever, maybe they're back to stone weapons and no (or leather) armor, and spawn less, and are more of a nuisance because they've lost their tech.

 

However, it seems like mobs will need the power to attack the player's structures, animals, and crops.  Otherwise, I'm not sure how they would make it 'impossible' for the player to build or live there.  Or perhaps more to the point, mine there.  If all the player has to do is toss up a plank hut and mine to the critical minerals, and the mobs can't tear down his hut, then really they'll mostly hinder him finding the materials in the first place, not stop him.  A well supplied player could insulate himself pretty well I think, if the mobs can't bust down his door.  Six vessels of raw food makes a lot of sandwiches, and a few rain barrels strategically positioned can keep a guy in water without leaving the house. 

 

Might be there are several fortresses on a given island, each affecting a region.  Otherwise it could take a long time, constantly being harassed, to find the one fortress that controls an entire 4000-square-ish island .  Unless it always spawns more or less in the center I guess.  One fortress per 1-2000 square area sounds a lot more manageable in terms of finding it - and you'll need to find them fast it sounds like, or risk being overrun in your inadequate night-hut while searching - I'm not sure how it could be made impossible to establish a base, but not impossible to spend several days and nights exploring, looking for the fort.  But then if you conquer one fortress and happen to find  the ore you need, can you just forget about the other fortresses?  Does or spawn in smaller veins so you need to find more of them? Perhaps there is a master fort, with a lot of outposts - destroying an outpost reduces the spawn in a sub-region, but they still come at you with better gear.  Only by destroying the master fort do you nullify their tech. 

 

It kind of begs the question, will we get loot in the form of actual tech?  Like, maybe they have a bloomery, or single level blast furnace in the fort?  It kind of seems like that would cheapen the accomplishment of getting a BF especially though. Can you find raw ingots in the fort?  You'd risk the game turning into a loot-based progression, rather than mining-and-smithing.

 

But tldr, I agree with Shiphty - I'm sure there will always be *some* amount of hostiles spawning.  It sounds like when you've 'conquered' an island, you've got access to enough materials to tech up to the next level and fight the next  island's denizens comfortably. 

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I thought about sieges on player-protected area. So mobs would spawn and keep some chunks loaded, and then they would move to the player's bases. I'd really like that. Settling in hostile environment should be dangerous even when you're passive, and especially when you're actively fighting the natives.

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Personally, I feel that it would be more appropriate and thematic if, beyond the initial island of tier 0 safety, the difficulty distribution would be more like large rolling hills rather then a linear gradient, varying on both x and z but never in short, large jumps, and the crests and valleys of these hills getting higher as one goes farther east/west. That way, there is a 'maximum' tier based on the distance, as well as a range of 'normal' tiers, with the occasional or rare lower tier scattered around. That way, one can have access to both low and high tier stuff no matter where they are, though can still expect things to generally get more difficult the farther out they are.

 

Also, how will one actually find their way from island to island? Will there be landmarks in the ocean? Will the islands be close/dense enough that one can expect another island in a reasonable time period if they simply go in a cardinal direction? Will there be a relatively easy way to make landmarks in the middle of the ocean, something similar to a lillypad or somesuch? Will the vanilla compass make a comeback? And what about mapping?

 

Also also, what about the ocean itself, will it have anything of interest? Or will it just be a deadzone intended to provide an obstacle between islands? Personally, I think it would be very interesting if, beyond the islands, the ocean itself could have progression tiers, with certain regions being more dangerous then others, as well as probably being linked to island difficulty gradients.

This could be coupled with new boat tiers, or even a somewhat customizable boat system, for example one can clad their wooden boat in metal to withstand more punishment, as well as have various forms of propulsion with their own strengths and weaknesses, such as rowing oars being the very first tier, being slow and requires a lot of food energy from the player, but is consistent, easily controllable, and reliable. Next tier could be wind/sails, which use some form of wind mechanic, which is semi-random and may or may not blow in the player's favor, but when it does is not only free but quite fast as well. There could also be tendencies that the player could pick up on, such as winds in the north tending to blow towards the east, south to the west, or simply random channels of wind directional tendency depending on world seed. With a final tier being steam, which is much like rowing but better, but requires wood/charcoal to run, which would be heavy and, thus, require a large boat/engine, and also of course be expensive.

Another potential upgrade path could be weaponry, such as harpoons, ballistae, and cannons.

Edited by abculatter_2
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Inter-island transportation would use portals, which is acquired from defeated dungeons. Boating for a kilometer is boring.

 

Anyway, what's you guys' opinion on my idea of regional difficulty? It kinda fits with TFC1 progression. Not really sure about TFC2, though.

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"Before an island is pacified, building/living there should be impossible."  

 

If you've understood this accurately I may not be playing TFC2 very long.  My play style involves altering the terrain and building in order to gain an advantage over the mobs.  When I played the Super Hostile Vechs maps, for instance, I often burrowed along-side tunnels filled with hostiles and broke intermittent holes to lay down torches, thus making the hallway safe.  Again, I'm keen to try TFC2 in whatever form before I knock it but if it involves straight up fighting alone and no alternatives, I'm probably going to move on to something else.  It's one thing to gear a mod to incorporate various play styles but if you exclude a play style, particularly one which (I think) is pretty popular, you have to expect that you'll narrow your audience.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, just a true thing.  I will be a bit sad though, I've been a real fan of TFC thus far.

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After thinking about it for a little while I've come up with an idea which might be a sort of "meet in the middle" solution.  Rather than not allowing the player to place/destroy blocks on an unconquered island, what about simply prohibiting farming on unconquered islands?  This would keep other styles of play besides straightforward combat viable and also prevent players from really living on an island till they've dealt with the malicious occupants.

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Thing is, do players *need* to truly live on any island but one?  The first significant base will likely be on whatever island they can get bronze at.  If they invest a lot of time in that base, will they want to move?  Or will further island raids be just for the required tech supplies?  In current TFC, a nomadic player doesn't really need to farm to survive, there's plenty of wild food, so if TFC2 has a similar food mechanic going, a player could probably defeat the island just scavenging as they go.  However the difficulty system works, it has to allow the player to at least be able to travel on the island - how else would they defeat the natives?  But if the player can travel, they can find wild food.  Unless there is none, or very, very little.  It'd be kind of interesting if crops only existed on farms defended by the natives, and the player had to raid those farms to find food.  And only after the natives are beaten do wild plants and animals spawn.  There could be some interesting moral dilemmas if the farms were inhabited by civilians, children and such.  But even then, a player can bring a lot of food with them.  If the tech-gate is just minerals in the ground, the player will probably be able to get them without conquering, much less farming, unless the natives can destroy player structures, and use ladders, etc.

 

At some point the travel between bronze base and further islands will become onerous though, unless there are indeed portals.  The player would have to choose between re-basing or making huge extended trips (or just staying on the tier they're at).  To me the notion of making a new significant base every other island or so, and abandoning the old one, sounds exhausting (and disassembling the iron sheets on the blast furnace, terrifying).  But then again, if the defeated mobs had a pretty nice fort, I guess you could maybe just move in.  That's not the same as building it from ground up though. 

 

To me the notion of disallowing placement/destruction of blocks on unconquered islands seems extremely artificial.  I'd very much like that to not be a mechanic of the game.

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