Content: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Background: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Pattern: Blank Waves Notes Sharp Wood Rockface Leather Honey Vertical Triangles
Welcome to TerraFirmaCraft Forums

Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, receive reputation points as a reward for submitting content, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

  • Announcements

    • Dries007

      ATTENTION Forum Database Breach   03/04/2019

      There has been a breach of our database. Please make sure you change your password (use a password manager, like Lastpass).
      If you used this password anywhere else, change that too! The passwords themselves are stored hashed, but may old accounts still had old, insecure (by today's standards) hashes from back when they where created. This means they can be "cracked" more easily. Other leaked information includes: email, IP, account name.
      I'm trying my best to find out more and keep everyone up to date. Discord (http://invite.gg/TerraFirmaCraft) is the best option for up to date news and questions. I'm sorry for this, but the damage has been done. All I can do is try to make sure it doesn't happen again.
    • Claycorp

      This forum is now READ ONLY!   01/20/2020

      As of this post and forever into the future this forum has been put into READ ONLY MODE. There will be no new posts! A replacement is coming SoonTM . If you wish to stay up-to-date on whats going on or post your content. Please use the Discord or Sub-Reddit until the new forums are running.

      Any questions or comments can be directed to Claycorp on either platform.
Miner239

Regional Difficulty

57 posts in this topic

If players are cheesing the level rather than playing straight, then maybe no matter how awesome you think that level's design is, the players don't think much of it. This is not a failing on their part. It's a failure on your part.

 

If "players" -- however many that's supposed to be referring to -- aren't playing a game the way it was designed to be played, then they are cheating.  That's their choice, of course, but it's not a "failing" on the part of the game designers.  The game designers have a vision for their game, and it is this vision -- and only this vision -- that's going to guide their development efforts.  They don't have any sort of responsibility to cater to the whims of any particular subset of people who may be interested in playing that game, however populous or boisterous.

 

Indeed, if any given player holds so much contempt and disdain for the design intent of a game that they only way they can bring themselves to play is via hacking, or cheating, or exploiting, then perhaps that player is best served finding some other game to play that better suits their tastes.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After reading this post sounds like I'll be playing TFC2 in peaceful lol.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If "players" -- however many that's supposed to be referring to -- aren't playing a game the way it was designed to be played, then they are cheating.

 

Yes. Absolutely. You're correct. I don't think this is what wyrmofvt was referring to, however, and in fact I believe this was admitted in that post as well though I could be mistaken on either or both counts.

 

ut it's not a "failing" on the part of the game designers.  The game designers have a vision for their game, and it is this vision -- and only this vision -- that's going to guide their development efforts. They don't have any sort of responsibility to cater to the whims of any particular subset of people who may be interested in playing that game, however populous or boisterous.

 

Again, at least technically, correct. Games are absolutely designed in accord with a mindset, vision, ideal, etc. of at least the project lead and typically with varying degrees of input from anyone/everyone else on the development staff (each team having its own system honed over time for provideing the best creative and productive environment. Yet, this is where at least my own philosophy and seemingly wyrmofvt's, differs from your own.

Media can be, and in some form and style frequently are, created for some purpose of the creators independent of anyone else, or for a very limited often family or close friends audience. Short films, short stories or fan fiction, poetry, painting or illustration, perhaps even games (especially in the case of mods or homebrews). TerraFirma Craft and TerraFirma Craft 2 at least so far as I can tell are not examples of such though, their being available to the public and especially the existence of this forum and the related wiki supporting a broader audience. While the responsibility of a creator of some (largely/prominently/mostly) personal medium is to the creator alone (or to the creator and the medium in question in a philosophical take), when designing something meant to be for public consumption and enjoyment it is typically "encouraged" to at least consider if not directly cater to the closest majority to the design ideals in question in order to allow for the most enjoyment by the most people. Designing in accord with personal ideals and desires for the game without considering or in direct opposition to those of the intended audience is foolish and counterproductive. Bioxx and Kitty (in whatever capacities they can and do, in addition to anyone else I'm not aware of) have so far done an admirable job of this with TerraFirma Craft, and presumably are doing so with TFC2 as well. I do not intend to imply otherwise.  

But, I take away from Shiphty's posts that s/he has a means of garnering such enjoyment in a way which is not necessarily common, and was expressing her/his hope that such enjoyment will continue to be possible in TFC2 with trepedation based on previous posts by Bioxx and Kitty on the subject. Shiphty may not be in the majority (and seems to not believe this is the case) and thus saw fit to clarify her/his position on the matter. The reception to this clarification was in my view somewhat founded in misunderstanding and grew increasingly terse as the discussion continued, likely out of frustration and possibly continued misunderstanding on both sides not aided by the relatively inexpressive nature of textual communication. I can sympathize with aspects of the situation presented by both Shiphty and Kitty thus far.

 

Indeed, if any given player holds so much contempt and disdain for the design intent of a game that they only way they can bring themselves to play is via hacking, or cheating, or exploiting, then perhaps that player is best served finding some other game to play that better suits their tastes.

 

1. I understood it that no longer anticipating playing TFC2 is exactly what Shiphty is saying will be the case for his/her self should development and responses to posts such as those above continue as they have, laying no personal judgment of my own in this specific matter on the stated circumstance.

2. Simply choosing not to play a game one does not like has never I believe drawn a great deal of displeasure in any individual case. There are plenty of games and some entire genres I typically do not enjoy playing, and so I do not do so. However, if a game one greatly enjoys is declared finished (not necessarily complete, just no longer continuing) and a sequel is in the works, it is reasonable for one to have hopes if not expectations for it to continue in an at least similar and hopefully then similarly enjoyable vein.

3. I can think of examples where hacking, cheating, or exploiting in a game can be among the greatest signs of affection or respect for the developers' work possible--speedrunning being the first that comes to mind, and also something which has been done in various fashions for vanilla Minecraft. Speedruns in many games involve playing the game far beyond the time even many dedicated players would stop out of enjoyment and affection for the game. Speedrunning TerraFirma Craft 1/2 could in theory be possible, if being limited to reach maximum tech level or craft X item from a new start world in as little time as possible. Speedrunners often contend that they would never put the time or effort into developing strats if not for their love of the game in question, and also readily admit that it is a relatively niche means of enjoying a game and which they understand developers not specifically catering to. Speedrunning is not the only example of such either.

One could even make the argument that modding games in itself falls within your disdainful spectrum, most notably in relation to hacking--modifying the code and altering assets, systems and/or mechanics, or even simply certain fixed values in order to cater to one's specific enjoyment of the game. Bioxx was not entirely pleased with the state of survival in vanilla; work on TFC begins. And yet now someone not being entirely pleased with a current impression of TFC's development direction and saying as much, while also admitting they will hold off final judgment until they can play the game in a relatively complete state is met with derision and hostility by fellow community members.

Please note again that I respect the protectiveness of a creator for their creation with regards to Kitty's replies, both generally and in this specific instance, even though I feel both parties' handling of the situation spiraled for the worse.

Edited for formatting.

Edited by RechargeableFrenchman
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It really seems like, instead of just making it completely impossible for the player to build structures, you could instead implement a system of block physics (ala Enviromine) as well as add some way of limiting the availability of blocks, combined with the already-planned progression-based tiering of resources (with an adventure-mode-style limiting of their harvesting unless you have x material that you can only get after defeating y), the vast majority of blatantly cheesy strategies could be curbed. Tunneling? Good luck breaking that granite with a copper pickaxe. Pillaring? Oh look, that tower you were building just collapsed under your feet, and since it's made of wood and, if you do have some success, you can expect those fire-starters, even if they're only occasional spawns, to start teaching you why they have that name. And if you make that pillar out of stone, besides that being even more difficult to make with the physics then wood, you can also add a weight system to boating across islands, and add sharks and such that would be neigh impossible for a player to handle on their own without a boat. Now suddenly you can't bring a stack of stone without nearly sink the ship, and also that would mean you won't be able to bring adequate food and equipment. Ideally there would also be risks involved with boating between islands, to discourage regular ferrying of materials prior to securing the island, such as perhaps any chests that you put on an island would have a portion (or all?) of their contents 'stolen' if the island is unloaded. That way, you can't accumulate a large amount of heavy materials until you've gotten rid of the things that are stealing from you, so even if you bring as much sturdy stone as you can, this would be at the cost of potentially bringing a lot of wood, or food, or equipment. Now you have players having to make a choice between what resources they want to bring in order to conquer the island, which is an interesting decision that could be designed around.

Granted, everything I just said would be a lot more difficult to make and get working (especially without some way to cheese your way around the systems) though I think it would lead to a stronger game overall.

Also, personally, I think that the ability to manipulate the environment is the one and only good thing about combat in minecraft. It encourages creativity, and allows for the creation of unique challenges and enemies for the player to overcome, that is simply impossible to do in other RPGs. Minecraft is just not a good combat-oriented RPG, in my opinion, and it really was never meant to be. It was always meant to be a game about building and overcoming challenges, and combat was added as a part of the overall experience, not as something to be isolated and used as a core experience. Maybe I'm a minority in this opinion, however.

Edited by abculatter_2
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While the responsibility of a creator of some (largely/prominently/mostly) personal medium is to the creator alone (or to the creator and the medium in question in a philosophical take), when designing something meant to be for public consumption and enjoyment it is typically "encouraged" to at least consider if not directly cater to the closest majority to the design ideals in question in order to allow for the most enjoyment by the most people. Designing in accord with personal ideals and desires for the game without considering or in direct opposition to those of the intended audience is foolish and counterproductive.

You are of course free to encourage the developers to develop their game in any way that you wish. They, in turn, are free to ignore your "encouragements" and develop the game the way that they see fit. How supposedly foolish and/or counterproductive such decisions might be are wholly subjective analyses.  If developers choose to build an application for a niche audience, for example -- or even just for themselves -- well, that's up to them to decide.

 

Keep in mind that they're not even selling this thing, either; it's freeware.  So ultimately, any changes that they make to appeal to a wider audience would be just solely to increase their outreach.  If that's not a motivation for them, then those features probably aren't going to happen.  (Standard caveat, of course: I'm not one of the developers; I would never deign to speak on their behalf.)

 

But, I take away from Shiphty's posts that s/he has a means of garnering such enjoyment in a way which is not necessarily common, and was expressing her/his hope that such enjoyment will continue to be possible in TFC2 with trepedation based on previous posts by Bioxx and Kitty on the subject. Shiphty may not be in the majority (and seems to not believe this is the case) and thus saw fit to clarify her/his position on the matter. The reception to this clarification was in my view somewhat founded in misunderstanding and grew increasingly terse as the discussion continued, likely out of frustration and possibly continued misunderstanding on both sides not aided by the relatively inexpressive nature of textual communication. I can sympathize with aspects of the situation presented by both Shiphty and Kitty thus far.

The terseness and tenseness seemed to have arisen not due to any misunderstanding; far from so, it rather palpably emanated from the diverging viewpoints of the two proponents.  One's a development team defending its right to build its game the way it sees fit.  The other is a cheater attempting to bully a development team into changing the game to suit his tastes.

 

To play devil's advocate, I too can choose to sympathize with the self-proclaimed victim in this scenario.  The game is too hard, too complex, too "grindy" or tedious or dull, to derive pleasure from.  Thus, cheating is necessary to alleviate these symptoms and adjust the game to a more enjoyable pace.  I understand that mentality.  I've even engaged in it, when encountering games or mods to games that have features that I dislike.  And I've even gone so far as to express my opinions -- loudly; boisterously -- to the development team responsible for producing such a product.

 

But I've never gone so far as to insist that the changes I'm proposing be accommodated for my benefit at the cost of the developers' vision.  I've never had the gall to assert that developers need to cater to the whims of their player base.  In short: it's their damn game.  They can make their game any way they damn well please.  The only options thus open to me are any and all of:

 

- Complain loudly about how much I hate certain aspects of their game

- Stop playing their game

- Get a refund, if I paid for the game

- Tell all of my friends how much I think that game sucks

 

And so forth.  But demand that the developers do it my way?  Pfft, hardly.  This is the thin red line that I never cross, but Shiphty and those who defend his stance seem quite comfortable stomping all over.  To him, and his ilk, I say this:  You made your point.  The devs heard you.  Now sit on it.

 

1. I understood it that no longer anticipating playing TFC2 is exactly what Shiphty is saying will be the case for his/her self should development and responses to posts such as those above continue as they have, laying no personal judgment of my own in this specific matter on the stated circumstance.

Presuming that's the case (and I personally doubt it): so what?

 

2. Simply choosing not to play a game one does not like has never I believe drawn a great deal of displeasure in any individual case. There are plenty of games and some entire genres I typically do not enjoy playing, and so I do not do so. However, if a game one greatly enjoys is declared finished (not necessarily complete, just no longer continuing) and a sequel is in the works, it is reasonable for one to have hopes if not expectations for it to continue in an at least similar and hopefully then similarly enjoyable vein.

Sure.  It's also reasonable for one to accept the fact that there will be changes in the next version, and that some of those changes might be ones that one doesn't particularly care for.  If one then decides that those changes are so egregious, so heinous, that all fun has been sucked out of the game, then one has the right to choose not to play that game and instead wallow in disappointment in despair.

 

Indeed, it's further reasonable to assume that it's likely there will always be players who feel that way about changes made to a game in its next incarnation.  One cannot please everyone; nor should one fret over failing to do so.

 

3. I can think of examples where hacking, cheating, or exploiting in a game can be among the greatest signs of affection or respect for the developers' work possible--speedrunning being the first that comes to mind, and also something which has been done in various fashions for vanilla Minecraft. Speedruns in many games involve playing the game far beyond the time even many dedicated players would stop out of enjoyment and affection for the game. Speedrunning TerraFirma Craft 1/2 could in theory be possible, if being limited to reach maximum tech level or craft X item from a new start world in as little time as possible. Speedrunners often contend that they would never put the time or effort into developing strats if not for their love of the game in question, and also readily admit that it is a relatively niche means of enjoying a game and which they understand developers not specifically catering to. Speedrunning is not the only example of such either.

There will always be cheaters, whatever their motivations. Asking (or worse, demanding) the devs to accommodate cheating, or the cheaters' mentality, strikes me as an entirely new level of arrogance and self-aggrandizement. 

 

One could even make the argument that modding games in itself falls within your disdainful spectrum, most notably in relation to hacking--modifying the code and altering assets, systems and/or mechanics, or even simply certain fixed values in order to cater to one's specific enjoyment of the game. Bioxx was not entirely pleased with the state of survival in vanilla; work on TFC begins. And yet now someone not being entirely pleased with a current impression of TFC's development direction and saying as much, while also admitting they will hold off final judgment until they can play the game in a relatively complete state is met with derision and hostility by fellow community members.

An absurd comparison.  Rather, the equivalent would be Bioxx and Kitty popping onto Notch's suggestions forum and insisting that he make TFC-oriented changes to baseline play or they'll boycott the game.  See how silly that sounds?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well this seems to be a thread centered around progression so here's my two cents.

Man started out as scavengers and gatherers. It wasn't until we acquired tools that made killing easier that we started killing things. Our first tools were crude digging devices for getting roots easier, rocks for breaking nuts and bones of dead animals to acquire the marrow that a predictor left behind, knifes for quickly taking what meat we could from a carcass and running before something dangerous came. Spear was our first effective killing weapon because it extended our reach and every fighter knows how important reach is. We still spend most of the day from that point on finding food. Techniques diversified as some went into the plains, others the forests, and others along the coast. One such technique was setting the forest on fire. This made animals run out which gave you a chance to kill it with your spear, and got rid of those pesky trees blocking the light from berry bushes and other food providing plants. Eventually someone noticed if you planted some of the seeds you obtained from the food, that more plants of that type would grow the next year. 

minecraft a survival game

First make hunger actually decrease your health bar till you die. Then add wild plants few and far between. Next only get seed from produce making you weigh current survival over stable food source. Make the food bar decrease slower and make the uncooked food fill it only a tiny bit. Have diminishing returns on food you over eat by making it fill your hunger bar less to a point. Add in all the difficult I mentioned here with growing crops. Tie seed drops to player skill. Make attacking things decrease your food bar quicker as well as make animals harder to kill and obtain meat from. Require fishing rod to have fishing line that requires a metal hook to reduce people to spear fishing.  Make early game mobs afflict you with hunger to make people avoid them. The first set of islands should not be about metal at all. It should be about getting a stable food source. To subdue the first island/region you should have to make sacrifices of food, enough to fill up X points of hunger. After you subdue the island then you are allowed to break stone. Until then you need to pick up rocks and even then lowest tier thing you need to break stone is a copper pick.

Edited by Stroam
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we're gonna do some kind of fortress on an island why not just have a spell preventing placement of blocks close to the, But not on the whole island 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites