The Problem with Trees - Seeds

[Amzinoji 1]

As the title suggests, I do believe there is a kind of problem with the trees. Sure, they drop saplings for new trees, but sometimes they don't drop any. Naturally, you just go and look for another tree, but what if there isn't one for miles? In real life, tree's simply make seeds, a TON of seeds. If this were put into TFCraft, I feel as though it might add even more realism, but not make the game too hard or easy.

For example, oak tree's drop acorns; not year round, but every now and again during autumn. All tree's follow this kind of natural order. If I could count the amount of those damn 'helicopter' seeds I get in my backyard, I think I'd get a world record for the most time ever spent counting seeds.

What I'm thinking is that trees should drop just a few more saplings or some sort of seed during the autumn season in-game, and thus give us the feel of all those seeds piling up in our backyards (unless you live in the plains, lol). It would allow players to gather enough seeds to repopulate their tree farms, but it would also take time for this to happen; you couldn't just get a dozen saplings in the winter or spring.

What do you guys think about it?

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

I don't think it's necesary to say that it's not a good idea to make something drop hundreds of items when mined, or worse, even without being mined. At least, in minecraft, due to lag.

Besides that, i like the idea.

[letalhell 8]

Perhaps those seeds could drop from trees without the player interference and with that a new tree would grow nerby. That would make forest grow by it's own;

[bsb23 303]

The above sounds like natural overhaul. I think the only problem with this is that with that many seeds on the ground we would have huge lag issues, we would be forced to make a seed pile block which wouldn't work terribly. another problem saplings would obviously grow faster than a seed and that would take a lot of coding. It's a lot of work for a very small outcome.

[slackgiver 13]

perhaps instead of dropping either saplings or seed items trees could spawn "seed blocks" underneath them. Seed blocks would essentially be sulfur blocks except with a different texture and maybe drop 20 or so seeds when destroyed. the same could be done for fruit trees when they have a 1x1 space available underneath a leaf block.

[cevkiv 156]

Perhaps those seeds could drop from trees without the player interference and with that a new tree would grow nerby. That would make forest grow by it's own;

Yes. Anything that makes the game world more alive.

[Amzinoji 1]

The above sounds like natural overhaul. I think the only problem with this is that with that many seeds on the ground we would have huge lag issues, we would be forced to make a seed pile block which wouldn't work terribly. another problem saplings would obviously grow faster than a seed and that would take a lot of coding. It's a lot of work for a very small outcome.

Didn't say it had to be a seed. Besides, there's already an example of this coding with the different tree types growing at different rates, not to mention the burn rate, heat, and splitting difficulty. If it was just 3-4 more saplings during the autumn season in the mod, it's basically a similar effect.

[yord 1]

Maybe something like this:

Every time you cut down a tree, the area covered by it has a chance just like a sapling to spawn another tree on any of the covered area. Then the replanting is granted.

Besides that there could be a rather low chance of a sapling dropping when you cut down the tree rather than in the leaves (I don't think people actually get the saplings out of the branches, do they?).

So in case you wanna get that specific kind of tree to a different spot, you can just cut it down and hope for it to drop a sapling. If it doesn't, wait for it to regrow.

Good/bad?

[bsb23 303]

I like the saplings dropping but we still want to keep away from something that cause lag. The seed block (i said it first slackgiver) could possibly drop saplings when destroyed.

[RogueHydra 32]

It's a good idea but the seeds dropping from trees is slightly mistaken (correct me if I'm wrong). These are fruit trees - the seeds are in the fruit. If you were to get the seeds you'd get them from the fruit, they wouldn't drop separately. Essentially (this isn't implemented) you would craft the fruit to get the seeds just like the watermelon in vanilla. This also means that a naturally spawning tree would have to drop its fruit (or retrieved by an animal) to the ground, which even then doesn't guarantee the seeds will be viable or take root. There are a few fruit trees in the woods here and an apple tree in the back yard - 15 years - no sprouts on its own.

[yord 1]

It's a good idea but the seeds dropping from trees is slightly mistaken (correct me if I'm wrong). These are fruit trees - the seeds are in the fruit. If you were to get the seeds you'd get them from the fruit, they wouldn't drop separately. Essentially (this isn't implemented) you would craft the fruit to get the seeds just like the watermelon in vanilla. This also means that a naturally spawning tree would have to drop its fruit (or retrieved by an animal) to the ground, which even then doesn't guarantee the seeds will be viable or take root. There are a few fruit trees in the woods here and an apple tree in the back yard - 15 years - no sprouts on its own.

Well, then the seed issue is not an issue anymore o.0 Just take the fruit when it is over ripe and plant it! And MAYBE if bioxx wants to do it, they can still spread to keep the forest growing, not very fast though to simulate the real life situation.

Didn't realize that those are fruit trees ^.^

[bsb23 303]

RogueHydra most fruit trees are that way when grown at home an exception being plums. I'm pretty sure the seeds are infertile on purpose so you can't make your own tree farm without buying more tress from them. Without these companies it would most likely work. You are also forgetting how many non-fruiting trees we have in this game. Most trees can spread without animal interference they may do better in the case of some fruit but they can still survive without it usually animals are meant to be for transportation of seeds. So yes the seed problem is still a problem.

[Amzinoji 1]

You are also forgetting how many non-fruiting trees we have in this game. Most trees can spread without animal interference they may do better in the case of some fruit but they can still survive without it usually animals are meant to be for transportation of seeds. So yes the seed problem is still a problem.

Glad to know that someone is understanding what I mean. As you said, animals are just transportation, and many trees can repopulate without interference if given time. I would think that maybe, since all trees eventually bloom flowers, we could maybe have a short moment of extra drops from the leaves? Not sticks, of course, those are everywhere. And maybe, the leaves would have small flowers in them to signify the chance?

[bsb23 303]

Extra drops I like, no lag, fairly easy to code and makes sense. It would probably make more sense if it was after flowering though as a flower is a developing seedling that can't grow on its own yet.

[letalhell 8]

The above sounds like natural overhaul. I think the only problem with this is that with that many seeds on the ground we would have huge lag issues, we would be forced to make a seed pile block which wouldn't work terribly. another problem saplings would obviously grow faster than a seed and that would take a lot of coding. It's a lot of work for a very small outcome.

This problem could be resolved with a limited range of trees, let's say 1 in 10 trees have this "seed droping" stuff and with a limite range from player, so the willow in the swamp over the hills and beyond would not check to see if it could drop a seed, but the hickory in your backyard would. Not sure about number but, hmm 4 chunks in radius from player?

It's a good idea but the seeds dropping from trees is slightly mistaken (correct me if I'm wrong). These are fruit trees - the seeds are in the fruit. If you were to get the seeds you'd get them from the fruit, they wouldn't drop separately. Essentially (this isn't implemented) you would craft the fruit to get the seeds just like the watermelon in vanilla. This also means that a naturally spawning tree would have to drop its fruit (or retrieved by an animal) to the ground, which even then doesn't guarantee the seeds will be viable or take root. There are a few fruit trees in the woods here and an apple tree in the back yard - 15 years - no sprouts on its own.

As stated the mod isn't about realism but to be believable, trees don't have to take years to grow, that would be boring and pointless. And neither it have to have all it's functions from fruit to animal to ground and so on(also, not every tree have fruits)... I guess just randomly growing trees would be very welcome and make the game look more alive.

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

This problem could be resolved with a limited range of trees, let's say 1 in 10 trees have this "seed droping" stuff and with a limite range from player, so the willow in the swamp over the hills and beyond would not check to see if it could drop a seed, but the hickory in your backyard would. Not sure about number but, hmm 4 chunks in radius from player?

As stated the mod isn't about realism but to be believable, trees don't have to take years to grow, that would be boring and pointless. And neither it have to have all it's functions from fruit to animal to ground and so on(also, not every tree have fruits)... I guess just randomly growing trees would be very welcome and make the game look more alive.

1) I'd say keep it in a 1-chunk radius. Keep in mind, that's still 9 chunks, which is a considerable area. A 4-chunk radius is 25 total chunks, at 16x16 each for a total of 6400 blocks. Which - if you're in a forest biome - is potentially a processor-melting number of chunk updates for a low end system.

2) Magic A is Magic A.

It doesn't have to be realistic, but it does have to be consistent. If Bioxx makes regular trees drop seeds like regular trees, then people will become upset when fruit trees do not drop their seeds like fruit trees (that is to say, inside their fruit). We've established that fruit trees and woody trees are different in-game. If we make them behave wildly differently on most accounts (like they do), but then give them both one property that's totally the same and only makes sense for one of them, it breaks immersion like a kneecap in a brooklyn slum.

See also Like reality unless noted

[letalhell 8]

1) I'd say keep it in a 1-chunk radius. Keep in mind, that's still 9 chunks, which is a considerable area. A 4-chunk radius is 25 total chunks, at 16x16 each for a total of 6400 blocks. Which - if you're in a forest biome - is potentially a processor-melting number of chunk updates for a low end system.

2) Magic A is Magic A.

It doesn't have to be realistic, but it does have to be consistent. If Bioxx makes regular trees drop seeds like regular trees, then people will become upset when fruit trees do not drop their seeds like fruit trees (that is to say, inside their fruit). We've established that fruit trees and woody trees are different in-game. If we make them behave wildly differently on most accounts (like they do), but then give them both one property that's totally the same and only makes sense for one of them, it breaks immersion like a kneecap in a brooklyn slum.

See also Like reality unless noted

1) That's also why I said to make 1 in every 10 trees have this seed aspect... maybe even more(1:100...), depending on the biome, the type of tree. I guess this wouldn't be so hard to code just duplicate the trees and make one of this trees spawn have a random chance of been the one with seed generation. but I understand, i'm not sure about number, i shot 4 chunks radius out of nowhere.

2) Make fruits generate seeds when eaten and animals that come close of fruit trees have a small chance of carrying a seed and droping it in a cooldown or something like that. But even with this, fruit trees have greater chances of growing closer of a the fruit tree(there's a saying "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree"). This can be worked out to make it more accurate but not coding-intense.

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

1) That's also why I said to make 1 in every 10 trees have this seed aspect... maybe even more(1:100...), depending on the biome, the type of tree. I guess this wouldn't be so hard to code just duplicate the trees and make one of this trees spawn have a random chance of been the one with seed generation. but I understand, i'm not sure about number, i shot 4 chunks radius out of nowhere.

2) Make fruits generate seeds when eaten and animals that come close of fruit trees have a small chance of carrying a seed and droping it in a cooldown or something like that. But even with this, fruit trees have greater chances of growing closer of a the fruit tree(there's a saying "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree"). This can be worked out to make it more accurate but not coding-intense.

How about fruit trees with fruit-bearing leaf blocks convert to just regular leaf-blocks at a certain time of year unless harvested. When said fruity leaf block converts to the normal one, a fruit tree sapling has a small chance of spawning within the chunk

[RogueHydra 32]

Actually it was a natural fruit tree, not a commercial tree, we live next to small farm with cattle and a few wild apple trees. Also, some people may not know this, an apple seed isn't guaranteed to give you a tree that will grow the same type of apple. The apple seed contains the genes for all apples. There's more work in tree farms than just planting a seed. And for some reason I was in the mindset that this was just about fruit trees lol. I've been looking at the textures for them too much lol. I like the idea anyway but I honestly don't see it as a problem like you do I guess.

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

Actually it was a natural fruit tree, not a commercial tree, we live next to small farm with cattle and a few wild apple trees. Also, some people may not know this, an apple seed isn't guaranteed to give you a tree that will grow the same type of apple. The apple seed contains the genes for all apples. There's more work in tree farms than just planting a seed. And for some reason I was in the mindset that this was just about fruit trees lol. I've been looking at the textures for them too much lol. I like the idea anyway but I honestly don't see it as a problem like you do I guess.

Protip: All commercially farmed apples are clones

All of them.

[RogueHydra 32]

Yup One of the random things I learned while I was up late reading a book with the TV on PBS lol. A neat 4 hour show on basic human desires (food, beauty, stimulation, and something else). The food section included some neat stuff. Especially the part on how 'Johnny Appleseed' was portrayed as giving seeds to people - where in actuality the chance of those seeds producing an apple tree with good edible apples is unlikely. But yeah, the apple tree in the back yard made some pretty sour apples, but they were edible lol.

[JDCollie 66]

Why not simply have any tree within 16 chunks have a chance to 'plant' a sapling in a 30 block radius once per TFC year? (during autumn)

That way the game isn't dealing with a massive explosion of entities, and cutting trees wouldn't need to change, but the world would slowly change and grow as time went on, and forests would be able to naturally regenrate if you left them alone long enough.

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

Why not simply have any tree within 16 chunks have a chance to 'plant' a sapling in a 30 block radius once per TFC year? (during autumn)

That way the game isn't dealing with a massive explosion of entities, and cutting trees wouldn't need to change, but the world would slowly change and grow as time went on, and forests would be able to naturally regenrate if you left them alone long enough.

if that's the case, you'd have to impliment a tree death mechanic as well, else all of minecraftia becomes a huge dense jungle

[RogueHydra 32]

I know it's possible for blocks to dispense items/blocks as if they were placed. Just need to determine the mechanics involved in that method. A leaf block that has a direct path to the ground below through air blocks only (say minimum of 2 or 3?) has say a 1:500 chance to plant a sapling? That way you don't suddenly come to a forest that has hundreds of saplings all over the ground from every tree.

[JDCollie 66]

if that's the case, you'd have to impliment a tree death mechanic as well, else all of minecraftia becomes a huge dense jungle

Have a maximum tree population then. To prevent a static world, have the tree 'seeding' algorithm continue to run once the population limit is reached, but if the seeding check returns positive, have another tree of the same species 'die'. (I'd probably just have the tree outright disappear without dropping anything, as dropping material would have the name entity-spam problem of before)

Have the population limit different per biome. That way plains won't be overrun by trees, but other more naturally forested areas can become very dense over time.

Of course, trees planted by the player will still grow, regardless of the cap, but the player's trees will still count toward the cap when calculating the seeding and tree death numbers.