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TonyLiberatto

Mob Destroying Blocks

16 posts in this topic

Since we are talking about increasing difficult as we move from island to island, What if a harder Island also required building a wall around your base of better materials?

It could end with the need to use metal sheets on top of brick blocks for the hardest Island. It would be really hard to build a Base there.

In the same spirit, we could even make it easier to build a base in the first Island.

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Ya, it seems like an idea consistent with what we've heard of TFC2 so far.  Mobs could also use flaming arrows and torches to set fire to player structures, perhaps.  They could even attack crops and farm animals.  Or have ladders.  Lots of possibilities for mobs to attack more than just the player.

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Fire would be OK, in one of the hard Islands, but ladder could be used if it had a limiting factor, So it would be just a way to force the player to make a barrier with a certain Height. Certain Mobs would be able to place a ladder up to 3 blocks for example.

But the main objective would be attain by just allowing mobs to destroy blocks.

Edited by TonyLiberatto
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Ya, definitely would need to be tiered.  Earlier islands, mobs wouldn't use fire.  At some point they get a axe, then a pick, then eventually fire.   Maybe won't attack animals till later game either.  I think they could attack crops by hand early on.  And like you say, start with fewer ladders, then work up to more.  It'd be interesting, seeing how players set up their bases in response to the various threats.  Oh, maybe mobs even get the ability to poison water source blocks!  It'd be interesting if there were several different races of enemies and they each had a unique power or two to hassle the player.

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At the same time, I still would love to get rid of all the monsters and replace them with animals. Is a conflict. Unless we were to have Dinos.

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There's theoretically nothing stopping the devs simply re-skinning the existing mobs:zombies could simply be caveman-like thugs with hand-to-hand melee weapons, skeletons could be an archer race, with spider-jockeys as horse archers etc. :)

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Before I read this suggestion I thought I wasn't going to like it.  But I do.  I think the difference between what I thought it would be and what you wrote is the fact that the player can do something about the challenge or difficulty, there's a solution.

 

However, I think this feature won't work so well unless there's a way of securing land and making sure that enemies won't spawn within your wall.

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I think this feature would work better if we had a system where mobs would not spawn on player placed blocks, For blocks like Brick and smooth stone or wood planks I imagine it would be a question of the spawn check and only spawn mobs over dirt, grass or raw stone.

Maybe prevent mob spawning on dirt blocks with flowers or any other plants on it, so the player can still have a garden or boulevard.

The idea in my mind is that mobs would only spawn outside your base, if you are there or not is irrelevant.

Another aspect is that while simple protection would be enough for the first settlement, like fences and wood constructions, Harder places would require stronger walls and buildings, all the way to the point where you need to use metal sheets to increase the strength of the outside walls and make then higher.

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The metal sheets on blocks thing sounds really, really prohibitive.  Just plating the blast furnace is a lot of work, and that's only 60 block faces.  60 sheets (12,000 units of ore) would only cover the outside face of a 2 high 7x7 enclosure,  and allow for a door or two - presumably also made of metal.  That's an interior space of 5x5, which is just a basic house, definitely not enough to enclose livestock and farms.  I think it's pretty unrealistic to expect players to plate an entire curtain wall protecting a settlement with farms and animals inside, unless there is a recipe intermediary - something like combine a double sheet with 8 brick blocks around it, and get a return of 16 "steel plated blocks" or the like.  That'd be 8x the return of actually placing plates on blocks, and also a lot less frustrating in terms of plates magically vanishing.  But it'd still only be a 4-block long section of 3 high wall with a 1 block overhang.  And that doesn't even address if the mobs can tunnel under the wall.  Presumably you'd have to not allow that or it'd be too hard to keep them out, but then you basically force the player to have a walled farm, and then his house underground, to most efficiently use space and resources. 

 

If the player is building an above ground house, I'd think the bare minimum enclosure to have some farm plots, and a couple types of animals, plus a house, would be something like a 16 square enclosure.  two 4x8 pastures, two 4x8 garden plots, and an 8x16 house.  It's actually be more like a tower, in order to make most efficient use of space.  But so a 16x16 space enclosure at 3-high with a 1-block overhang would require 17 four block long sections.  In my recipe above, that'd require 17 double sheets plus the bricks.  That's 6800 units of ore.  Or roughly a half-chest of normal ore.  Might be better to yield 32 steel blocks per double sheet...all depends on the balance desired I guess.

Regarding mob spawning, it might be interesting to have each island have a chance for 1 'main fortress' and in that fortress is a war banner or something.  The player can use that banner to make their own, and each banner prevents spawns in some radius around it - perhaps a 1 chunk radius around the chunk it sits in.  So as the player conquers more islands and gets more banners, they can make larger and larger permanently safe areas.

Edited by Darmo
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I understand your concerns about the sheer amount of material.

The important in this matter was to have a system that would work in one location, but not in another.

The idea is that in the first Island where the player spawns it should be relatively cheap to protect your base and then getting hard and harder as the difficult increases.

One thing to remember is that we have no idea how the building of bases will work in tfc2. Will we build provisory bases as we advance  to harder Islands, or will we make the main base in the first Island and just build small outposts in the harder Islands?

If the second is true the requirements for material would be a lot lower.

I don't like when people talk about metal units, it gives an impression of a much greater amount of material. The 12000 units of ore you talk about are only 120 ingots.

In my multiplayer town we have that in gold, just because is nice to look at it.

What I mean, is that, yes, it would be hard to accumulate enough metal to protect an area, but I believe your farms would be on the less hard Island and on the one where you need this much protection  you should only need a small base, just a place with some chests and beds.

In the end all is just speculation, until we understand more how the system will work.

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your "only 120 ingots" is still nearly 350 units of RICH ore... 480 units of normal.I'd say that's a hell of a lot of metal.

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Yes it is, thats the point, is not suppose to be easy, we are talking about the possibility to create a small Fort in the most dangerous and hard to survive Island. 480 units of metal are well worth it. A good vein should provide all that, sometimes more. We have no lack of veins in tfc. There is metal everywhere. But again people keep obsessing about the metal sheets, when the import about this tread is to consider the possibility of mobs destroying blocks, and how that would change the gameplay.

Once we have that settle, we can think about how to protect ourselves and create mob resistant structures.

Edited by TonyLiberatto
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I guess I feel like the game already has a pretty good amount of ore grinding.  So I don't think more of that will really enhance the experience.  Especially since it *seems* like TFC2 is going for a more active and aggressive playstyle.  Also placing metal sheets can be buggy at times in my experience, prone to losing them. 

I think  units as a reference is useful, at least for players who are experienced.  Anyone who's done some back-of-envelope calculations knows it takes roughly 15k units of iron to make a blast furnace, and that all goes into sheets.  So if we're talking about sheeting walls, I think it's a valid metric.  12k is especially relavent as that's the cost of the fire brick block plates themselves.  So it'd be the same amount of work as plating a 5-level blast furnace.  It's a lot of work, which I could deal with, but then you add in the buggy placement, no thanks.  Just let me make iron/steel plated blocks from them.  Much easier, and more scaleable. 

 

I don't think the possibility of mobs destroying blocks has much to be debated, it will either happen or won't, and it seems like it will - or at least will be tried out - based on what's been said elsewhere.

 

After that it's about discussion of balance and mechanics.  I assume the devs put up these forums for our input.  If they just wanted to build an entire first version and *then* get our feedback, why put up the forums now?  Yes, it's true, we're supposed to 'forget everything we know about TFC1'.  But we can't ditch *everything* or it's impossible to discuss anything.  I think it's fair to assume that the stack limits and basic mechanics will remain.  Things we don't know are, will fresh islands have wild food?  If not, the player can't forage, so they'll either have to start a farm there or go back to their previous base.  Will there be teleporation, or portals between bases?  If not, the player is going to have to either move their entire camp every couple islands, or they're going to have to make increasingly longer journeys to return after forays. I think it's fair to assume the logistics of inventory limit and travel time won't change a lot (though the former certainly could), so in either case, the time involved is significant.   If moving a base is indeed at least an occasional requirement, I'd much rather not have to move scores of buggy metal sheets.  

I feel like it's useful to discuss various implications of various mechanics, so I'm not saying one way or the other is *better* necessarily, but I'm trying to add to the discussion and say 'here's a couple possible ways things could play out, based on this possible mechanic'.  The devs may already know exactly how they want to do this and be keeping it under wraps - that's fine, I enjoy thought exercises.  But I get the impression that a lot is still up in the air. 

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I assume the devs put up these forums for our input.  If they just wanted to build an entire first version and *then* get our feedback, why put up the forums now?

 

Because a random member on the forums saw Bioxx's tweets about the island generation, and asked if we could put up a forum for TFC2 discussion and suggestions. That's literally it.

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Because a random member on the forums saw Bioxx's tweets about the island generation, and asked if we could put up a forum for TFC2 discussion and suggestions. That's literally it.

Fair enough, but it was done.  The fact the forums were put up and not whitelisted suggests they were expected to be used by the community.  And Bioxx at least has responded to a couple  posts in a manner suggesting he was interested in input.  Though if the boards are functioning more as a rumor mill and less as a useful arena for discussing ideas, or sucking up too much dev time reading, I can see where regrets may develop. 

My point was, the boards aren't a committee that has to follow an agenda.  I don't think anything *has* to be decided regarding mobs destroying blocks or not, before discussing logical implications of going down a certain road.  In theory, discussing what might happen may help answer the original question in the best manner.

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I love the idea of mobs griefing but, for who dont want to change island, home, make that difficulty slowly increases with time in the entire world.

Please, think on this.

But i think is better if there are barbarians or cavemans.

I will make a post about other hummans

Edited by Diego il Catanico Jr
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