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anonymous conservative

Future of Burlap in TFC2

17 posts in this topic

Are burlap sacks still planned for grain storage and preservation for TFC2, or has that idea been scrapped, or is it unknown as of now? Thanks!

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I'd still like a silo for grain storage. Or just put it into a large vessel as liquid.

 

All my suggestions aside, IMO burlap sacks should be used not only for storage, but also for transport. Carrying a sack full of grain on your shoulder should be plausible enough, no?

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All my suggestions aside, IMO burlap sacks should be used not only for storage, but also for transport. Carrying a sack full of grain on your shoulder should be plausible enough, no?

 

There's a problem here however. Other food types are carried normally, but why should wheat be carried on the back slot? Unless the sack could contain more than 160oz, then there's no real reason to do this. But if the sack can contain way more, and it's the only way of transporting wheat, then that could be done indeed.

Yeah, unless there's a real reason to carry wheat on your shoulders it just feels weird to say beef goes in inventory, bread too, fruit too, even vegetables, wheat no! Why?

Then it should only be carried with a sack and no longer by hand, also, it's quite difficult to carry lots of wheat by hand.

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It is unknown for now. Please keep in mind the first two rules of the suggestions forum, even here in the discussion forum.

 

1. Remember that TFC2 is a 100% rewrite and re-conception of TerraFirmaCraft. It is a new mod entirely, and will be very different from what you are currently used to.

    [*]A great many things are going to change, so your suggestions for TFC will likely not be appropriate for TFC2.

2. Do not suggest things based upon what was or wasn't in TFC1.

    [*]This piggy-backs on rule #1. Wanting something to be added to TFC2 just because you think it won't make it into TFC1 isn't enough of a reason to post it here. [*]If the developers want to look at TFC1 suggestions and consider implementing them in TFC2, then they will check the TFC1 suggestions forum.

 

When it comes to TFC2 with discussions and suggestions, you should forget that TFC1 exists entirely.

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Hm, I think the sack could contain somewhere between 1600 oz to 160008000 oz. Maybe coupled with backpacks-type system, inherited from TFC1's barrel slot.

Edited by Miner239
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It is unknown for now. Please keep in mind the first two rules of the suggestions forum, even here in the discussion forum.

 

1. Remember that TFC2 is a 100% rewrite and re-conception of TerraFirmaCraft. It is a new mod entirely, and will be very different from what you are currently used to.

[*]A great many things are going to change, so your suggestions for TFC will likely not be appropriate for TFC2.

2. Do not suggest things based upon what was or wasn't in TFC1.

[*]This piggy-backs on rule #1. Wanting something to be added to TFC2 just because you think it won't make it into TFC1 isn't enough of a reason to post it here.

[*]If the developers want to look at TFC1 suggestions and consider implementing them in TFC2, then they will check the TFC1 suggestions forum.

 

When it comes to TFC2 with discussions and suggestions, you should forget that TFC1 exists entirely.

So many conflicting feelings.

On one side I am anxious to see tfc2 when is finally done and released.

On the other hand I feel like I am loosing something.

We all love tfc, is the reason we are here after all. 

I would settle for a port of tfc to Minecraft 1.8

The way things are going maybe it would be better to just announce the end of tfc and rename tfc2 to something else and just say it is inspired by tfc. People will keep make suggestions based on what they know, tfc.

Not trying to be a smart anything here. Just saying that I would hate for the forum to become full of the Dev's repeating themselves  that the new mod is not gonna be a continuation of the old one.

One of the problems, the way i see is that what most people want is exactly that. A continuation of tfc. I am not saying you guys have to do that. You people work hard coding something in your spare time, you should use that time whatever way you have fun.

Just saying that maybe it would be better to rename the new mod and tell everyone taht it will have nothing to do with the old. It will avoid a lot of problem here in the forum.

I hope the Dev's don't get me wrong here. I am genuinely trying to help with a issue that I see arriving and that it can be prevented.

Peace and love and most of all thank you for all the work. I love Terrafirmacraft. Not sure if i will like the next mod, but for sure there will be other players, it would be impossible for you guys to release anything that would not be of superb quality.

Hope my mouth don't get me in trouble. I have only the best of intentions with this comment.

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So many conflicting feelings.

On one side I am anxious to see tfc2 when is finally done and released.

On the other hand I feel like I am loosing something.

We all love tfc, is the reason we are here after all. 

I would settle for a port of tfc to Minecraft 1.8

The way things are going maybe it would be better to just announce the end of tfc and rename tfc2 to something else and just say it is inspired by tfc. People will keep make suggestions based on what they know, tfc.

Not trying to be a smart anything here. Just saying that I would hate for the forum to become full of the Dev's repeating themselves  that the new mod is not gonna be a continuation of the old one.

One of the problems, the way i see is that what most people want is exactly that. A continuation of tfc. I am not saying you guys have to do that. You people work hard coding something in your spare time, you should use that time whatever way you have fun.

Just saying that maybe it would be better to rename the new mod and tell everyone taht it will have nothing to do with the old. It will avoid a lot of problem here in the forum.

I hope the Dev's don't get me wrong here. I am genuinely trying to help with a issue that I see arriving and that it can be prevented.

Peace and love and most of all thank you for all the work. I love Terrafirmacraft. Not sure if i will like the next mod, but for sure there will be other players, it would be impossible for you guys to release anything that would not be of superb quality.

Hope my mouth don't get me in trouble. I have only the best of intentions with this comment.

You've made your feelings clear in other posts, and that's perfectly fine, I get where you're coming from. I constantly have to look at things and ask myself, is this a good fit or am I detracting from what made tfc1 so unique? I would like to note however that the TFC1 experience was intended to have some of the features that have been discussed for TFC2 but were never realized due to feature creep in other areas, as well as a lack of a framework for many of these ideas to come to fruition.

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I can't speak for Bioxx, but this is my stance on the whole situation. First and foremost though, you must understand this one key fact:

  • A direct simple port of TFC to Minecraft 1.8 is impossibleA rewrite must happen no matter what.

Mojang completely screwed mod developers over with the changes in 1.8. To put things into perspective, Minecraft 1.8 released September 2nd, 2014. A relatively stable version of forge for 1.8 released February 4th, 2015. It took 5 months before it was even possible for mod developers to even consider updating their mods. Today, it has been over 7 months since forge for 1.8 was released. I challenge you to go find any larger, extremely popular mod that isn't primarily client-side that has updated to 1.8, or is showing any indication of doing a direct port. I'll save you a bit of trouble and go ahead an link the listing for the most popular 1.8 mods. As you can see, the big world-editing mods like Tinker's Construct, CoFH (Thermal Expansion, Thermal Foundation, etc), Extra Utilities, Jabba, MFR, Applied Energistics, BiblioCraft, Thaumcraft, Pam's HarvestCraft, Botania, Forestry, etc. are not on that list. The majority of the mods I just listed have also shown no indication of updating to 1.8, or have even explicitly stated that they won't. The few that have discussed updating, are primarily doing major version changes with the majority of everything being a rewrite. CurseForge has 180 pages of mod listings for Minecraft 1.7.10. For 1.8, there's only 48 listings, and most of those are small mods that very few people have even heard of.

 

The reason that there are so few mods out there that have updated to Minecraft 1.8 is because updating will almost always require a massive rewrite. If it was easy to update a larger mod to 1.8, there would be more of them already available for download.

 

Now that it's been made clear that a rewrite is inevitable, I'll explain my personal stance on why doing a reconception is better than a rewritten copy.

 

First and foremost, the TFC1 code base is not pretty. It's a mess. Many of the mechanics have been hacked together, and aren't a very elegant solution. For these mechanics, it gets to a point where it is easier to throw the entire thing out the window and try to redevelop it from scratch than to try and fix it, as well as update it to use the new 1.8 mechanics. If anything, attempting to just edit the bare minimum so that the mechanic was 1.8 compatible would likely result in code that is even buggier and more complicated.

 

One of the hard things about having a huge mess of features, is that it actually makes it even harder to add new features to it. There are a few good articles out there that can explain how easy it is for feature creep to murder a project. Here's just one example. Here's a good quote regarding it as well:

  • "The important point is that the cost of adding a feature isn't just the time it takes to code it. The cost also includes the addition of an obstacle to future expansion. Sure, any given feature list can be implemented, given enough coding time. But in addition to coming out late, you will usually wind up with a codebase that is so fragile that new ideas that should be dead-simple wind up taking longer and longer to work into the tangled existing web. The trick is to pick the features that don't fight each other." -- John Carmack, computer game programmer known for Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, Quake

Secondly, doing nothing more than taking an existing code base and rewriting it without adding anything big and new to it is probably the most boring thing I could possibly think of when it comes to mod development. Developer burn out is a dangerous thing, and I can guarantee that being stuck in the same rut of features is one of the big causes. It's a hell of a lot more fun to come up with things that are new and exciting. Ideas that you've never worked on before. The motivation is higher, the code is cleaner because there's little existing framework you have to cram it into, and most importantly, the developer is happier because they get to work on something new of their choosing, rather than being stuck drudging through the same old code with the same old bugs and limitations.

 

Finally, one of the worst things that I have seen when it comes to mod development is the ridiculous sense of community entitlement. I hate to break it to you, but when it comes to a mod that you are playing with no cost to you, you are entitled to absolutely nothing. The fantastic thing about doing a ground-up rewrite of essentially a new mod is that there isn't anybody who has played it yet. There isn't anybody who can really give truly accurate insight into the game other than the developers who are still working on it. It's a lot easier as a developer to blow off the whining and complaining of people who haven't even tried it yet and instead focus on what you want to do. There's a lot less pressure to reach any sort of standards other than the ones you set for yourself. If a copy rewrite was done, the community entitlement is infinitely stronger, because the community is expecting the exact same game that they currently have, but better. By doing a reconception that isn't a problem, because we've outright told you that you can't expect the same game. There's no soap box left for you to stand on other than "but I liked the old one" to which we can simply say "Then go play the old one then, we're not forcing you to play this new one."

 

You aren't losing anything. We aren't going to completely get rid of TFC1 the moment that TFC2 releases so you won't ever be able to play it again. And you can't claim that you are losing new possible features for TFC1, because that ship sailed a long time ago. There hasn't been a new big feature addition to TFC1 since the lamps back in 0.79.16 which released on April 5th, over 5 months ago. Dunk retired as a developer because he hadn't added any new big features to the mod in about a year. There has been very little development with TFC1 other than bug fixes and very minor additions for quite a long time. And honestly, most of that development was done because I need something to pass the time while I wait for TFC2 to reach a point where I can also dive into development on it.

 

The issue of us constantly repeating ourselves is a much easier fix. I can add the reminder to the top of the Discussion forum as well. The number one reason why it might seem like we're repeating ourselves is because all of the discussion is still new. Very little precedents have been set about what is considered a good discussion or suggestion. Once things actually get going, the community gets a lot better about self-regulating these kinds of things. It's not a perfect system, but it never will be. The TFC1 suggestions forum is a perfect example of that, with each week there being a post from a new forum member who hasn't read any of the rules, and suggests the same old thing that's been suggested hundreds of times before. It's just something you have to deal with when administrating a forum.

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Thanks Kitty. That explains a lot.

It's always so hard to convey intonation when writing. Specially for people that are not native English speakers.

My whole point was to suggest that you guys could change the name of Terrafirmacraft 2 to something different, like for example "Islafirmacraft".

The point is exactly what you explained. to try to just rewrite tfc to 1.8 would be such a massive work and really boring. It is much more exciting to create something new.

Changing the name would send a clear message to all players. There will not be any further development to tfc, the new mod although based on tfc will be totally different.

Again please don't judge me hard. Just giving a suggestion, that you can use or not.

One more time Thanks for all the hard work. I love this mod and the community. 

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I honesty wouldn't be opposed to a new name for the rewrite. Maybe Bioxx and Kitty could put a poll and see what the community thinks. They wouldn't be picking a name, but rather simply saying whether or not the name SHOULD change.

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I don't remember their name, but someone in IRC made a neat little connection that I think supports the reasoning behind keeping the same name.

 

TFC1 - "Survival as it should have been."

TFC2 - "Adventure as it should have been."

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^ I agree. TFC is a brand name.  The whole point of branding is to convey a sense of what's inside the box.

 

When people see the TFC brand, they know they're getting a quality product. 

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Since we are in the subject of naming. A question? Where the name TerraFirmaCraft comes from.

It comes to my attention that the word Terra means Earth or World in Portuguese and Spanish.

The word Firma means Firm.

Craft does not need a translation.

In any case I would love to hear from Bioxx how did he come up with this name TerraFirmaCraft.

 

I don't remember their name, but someone in IRC made a neat little connection that I think supports the reasoning behind keeping the same name.

 

TFC1 - "Survival as it should have been."

TFC2 - "Adventure as it should have been."

As for changing the name, Kitty argument is valid, I withdraw my suggestion. 

I still don't really like tfc2, it smells like a sequel and everyone knows that sequels are never as good as the original. ( At least in the movie business ).

But I see the reasoning in keeping the Brand. And I am sure it will be a quality game.

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So...ok, not to derail the derailing, but it would definitely be nice to see more uses for jute.  It's kind of hard to imagine good uses for burlap where cloth wouldn't be better, when burlap sacks are taken from the equation. 

I've often wished I could have a rope to climb down from the top of ravines, as I've not found a good way to do it with ladders.  It'd be great if the player would somehow tie off a rope and climb down it, requiring a piece of rope for each meter descended.  It'd be a good use for masses of surplus jute.  And if rope lifts were incorporated in the game (such as for livestock) all the better.

 

Another use for burlap could be sail repair, if the ferry system were implemented, and the ships had sails, and the sails had a chance to be damaged each trip. 

 

Or, some kind of pop-up tent item.  Though if mobs are more hostile and can destroy blocks, that might be pointless.

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I wished for a decorative item thick rope. it could be set between 2 blocks up to 8 blocks apart. It would work like a fence, but only one block high, so you can easily jump, but it would not obstruct the view as much as a fence. it is a solid block, meaning it would work perfectly as a handrail for stairs going up a mountain also it would be great on docks. When not in use it would be a solid block looking like a cord roll. 

Another use for jute is grain bags. I would love to have a way to bag processed grains and be able to sell then in the market.

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I had another thought on possible burlap use.  It's only going to make sense if there's any desire to make food (specifically fruit) less easy to get, so this is all made in that context and if that's not a desire then this is not going to be a useful suggestion.

 

I've noticed that it's pretty easy to set up a very extensive fruit farm, what with berry bushes and trees.   In the right climate zone, it doesn't take much wandering to get loads.  I thought it would both give a use to burlap, and make fruit producers more valuable early on, if burlap sacks were the only item that could hold berry bushes and fruit tree saplings (and maybe regular saplings as well).   It seems like stack sizes can be be different for inventory vs container, looking at log piles.  So maybe saplings and bushes would only stack to 1 in player inventory, but higher in the burlap sack (Though logs are higher in inventory than in stack slots, so maybe that doesn't work in reverse?)  It would be additionally interesting if plants in player inventory had some sort of 'rot' timer (12 hours or less maybe, reduced by high temps), which if it runs out the sapling/bush disappears, or turns into sticks.  Timer does not decay in burlap sack.  This would represent that carrying bushes and trees bare-root is not good for them at all.   It would allow players to gather nearby bushes and fruit trees without a sack.   There would have to be some sort of precaution for bushes to make sure the player cannot just place and immediately break it again to reset the timer (maybe a 'sapling' version for bushes, like the early stages of crop growth?)  The player could still gather them from farther away without a bag, but they'd have to carry them, plant them before they dry out, and come back again and re-harvest them later.

 

The sack could for instance have just 4 slots, like vessels and log piles, with max stacks of 4 in each slot, and could be constructed using some burlap, jute or other thread, and dirt.  This would set up an early game choice between using your jute for ropes for animals, or for sacks for transporting bushes and trees.    This might make fruit trees and/or bushes more important in the early game, as it won't be as easy to set up massive fruit farms (especially if fruit trees only gave saplings in the right season, or if a beehive is nearby, etc). 

 

For extra hardcore-ness:

-Burlap sacks can only be carried though extraordinary means such as player back, donkey, cart, etc.

-The sack has a matching set of slots for dirt (16 sap/bush, 16 dirt).  And every time you place a sapling in the sack, is uses up one block of dirt.  You cannot place a sapling in the sack if no dirt block is available

-You have to keep the sack moist

-Saplings/bushes which are placed bare-root (from player inventory) have a flag like 'root shock' or something, which reduces their growth speed when planted(the flag is applied when the rot timer decays a bit).  Saplings placed in a burlap sack have the 'root shock' flag removed, so they grow at normal speed when planted.  When the sapling is removed from the sack and placed in hotbar or inventory, the 'rot' timer starts again and the player has a brief time period  to plant it before the root shock flag is re-applied.

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Since we are in the subject of naming. A question? Where the name TerraFirmaCraft comes from.

It comes to my attention that the word Terra means Earth or World in Portuguese and Spanish.

The word Firma means Firm.

Craft does not need a translation.

In any case I would love to hear from Bioxx how did he come up with this name TerraFirmaCraft.

While I don't know exactly why Bioxx chose the name he did, the likely intended source of Terra Firma used in this mod's name is latin, and according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_firma , it is a latin phrase meaning 'solid earth', and is apparently used to differentiate between the sea and the air.

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