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cpw

Question: Early game exploration and spawn protection

25 posts in this topic

Question for the long time players.

 

Starting out in a world, got to copper (lucky slate starting stone). I now need to explore. VERY far, and VERY wide. Slate goes on for ever. How do you balance exploration with the fact that every time you leave your starter shack, it'll lose it's spawn protection (apparently) and fill with mobs? Every time I've returned I've died to the innumerable skeletons and zombies that have taken up residence. How do others deal with nights away from home? It seems paradoxical that this mod is predicated on long running exploration, yet the tools to actually do it are put deep in the tech tree. I haven't even found a sheep (or cow) yet. Nights in the wilderness are spent at the top of a tree, and homecomings are a battle to the death (repeatedly, to the point that I'm just saying f*ck it and using creative to murder everything in my house). Is there some sort of expectation that in fact, I'm doing it wrong? I'm supposed to carry my house on my back? How do I solve the food issue then? I have a farm, at my house. I have food storage, at my house. Behind all the skeletons. Perhaps it's expected to only play in SMP? One person to stay home and keep house, while the other explores?

 

Note: peaceful seems too lacklustre. I actually enjoy a bit of combat, but my house after an exploration trip? Yeah, that's just throwing myself at a suicide wall.

 

Also, it's frustrating to think, after about 20 hours put in to trying to setup camp, that most likely, the best way to deal with the lack of anything but slate for thousands of blocks is to restart. How many restarts do you do before you find a "good world"?

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There's a handful of things that could be happening that is contributing to your experience.

  • Have you actually placed a protection meter to see how much spawn protection you have accumulated in an area? It sounds like you might be crossing chunk borders too often while wandering around in your base, so you aren't actually accumulating as much protection as you think. For each in-game hour you spend within a single chunk's borders (about 50 seconds), you'll get 8 in-game hours of protection by default (you can increase this in the configs). Protection caps out at 10 in-game months by default, so in theory with all default configs you can hang out in your base for 10 in-game days (about 3.3 real-life hours) and you'll have enough protection to leave your base and go exploring for essentially an entire in-game year, which would be about 27 real-life hours before any mobs would start spawning in your base again.
  • Does your house not have any windows, or are you always returning to it at night? I find it hard to believe that your house would be completely overrun with mobs when returning to it during the day unless you managed to make it one big dark room with no sunlight.
  • Do you have any sort of minimap installed? The chance that your world actually has slate for thousands of blocks in every direction is highly highly unlikely, considering I've tested multiple worlds and all of them have almost half of the stone types within a 4096x4096 area. I could see it having slate for 1 thousand (not thousands) blocks in a single direction, but if you had gone any other direction you'd probably come across a new stone type a lot quicker.
  • While walking in a straight line, a player can cover about 15.5 thousand blocks in a real-life hour (Source). So even if you just had to travel two thousand blocks to find a new stone type, that should on average only take you about 8 real-life minutes, or a little over 9 in-game hours. Double that to account for a round trip, and then say you spend an entire in-game week at that location mining or doing whatever. So we get 24 * 7 + 2 * 9 = 186 hours away from home. Assuming you are starting in a brand new chunk that has absolutely no spawn protection, and therefore needs to accumulate 24 hours worth of protection before it will actually prevent mobs from spawning, you'll need to only spend about 30 in-game hours (25 real-life minutes) in a single chunk in your base to get enough spawn protection so that you can leave for the trip and know there will be no mobs when you return. If you were to instead sprint while travelling, then everything will take even less time.
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In answer to your question: quite possibly. How big is the "spawn protection area"? 3x3 chunks? That's probably rather small? I'm always under zombie threat - they can easily pathfind from as far as 5 or 6 chunks away, but spiders and skellies are less of a nuisance. If I cross chunk boundaries does that cause the spawn protection "timer" to reset? Does that mean that for the first few days, I should never move out of a single chunk?

 

I can't craft a spawn protection meter. It seems to require a specific "chipped agate" (IIRC it used to be any kind of gem, so I would guess that wildcard derpage has happened here?).

 

By the way, I can only go in one direction really: east, to the north south and west is an ocean, probably many thousands of blocks wide. I haven't explored *very* far offshore yet, but mining is definitely not a possiblility in any of those directions for a long way. So, perhaps, the moral is, abandon any peninsula type spawn quickly, cos you're likely to be in this situation?

Edited by cpw
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The spawn protection area is 5x5 chunk area.

 

I just tested, and you can make the protection meter with any chipped gem. Are you sure you are using smooth stone, and normal glass? Raw stone or stained glass will not work. I'm not sure what would make you think it's only agate that will work.

 

Crossing chunk borders does reset the 50 second timer, so if you constantly run back and forth between two chunks no spawn protection will accumulate.

 

http://wiki.terrafirmacraft.com/Protection_Meter

Edited by Kittychanley
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We have a decently large forge building that has dark corners that can spawn stuff and a very dark food hamper. Because we aren't on a ton our protection tends to be low. So we chiselled one layer off the floors. This is something I've always done in my food storage. This prevents mob spawns in the building.

As for exploring. I like to build base on waterfront, then when returning I can hang out off shore in boat if needed.

When exploring I start each morning grabbing the supplies I need to make a quick shelter for the next night. 2 stacks of logs, convert one to planks. Then when it is getting dark I can build a shelter with planks. Then the other logs are for door, chest and to fuel a campfire. I leave extra logs there for next time I use. When gathering wood the next morning I clear trees around shelter, leaving stump. This means it is visible on minimap. Having shelters around make future trips easier.

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OK, I'm going to stand in the center of my house for the next 30 minutes. Lets see what happens. So far still plenty of mobs spawning nearby. The reason I think only agate will work is because that's what NEI is showing - only agate, nothing else.

 

Also, on stone distribution, it's definitely over 2000 blocks in 1 direction, and still only slate. Sure the other three directions might have other types, but they're about 100 blocks under water, so not a very practical proposition. My search so far is a cone shape with my house being the tip. The height of the cone is about 1500 blocks at present, and the breadth of the cone is about 1000 blocks or so. It's all slate.

 

By the way, I just stood for ~30 minutes, and all my torches extinguished (as you'd expect). However, after relighting them, they all went out again almost immediately, as if they were catching up for all the periods of 2 days I hadn't lit them. I got this before too after my expedition away.

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If you take your cursor off of the crafting grid when you bring the recipe up and make sure you aren't holding shift, NEI will animate and the gem will flip through all of them. It uses the ore dictionary, so it shows all the gems in that one recipe, instead of multiple pages of recipes.

 

You didn't answer if you were using a minimap or not? Without a minimap, there's no way to confirm if you weren't just walking in circles and thought it was 2,000 blocks. If you have a minimap, you can set a waypoint for home, and then when you get to where you think it is 2,000 blocks, go look at the waypoint to see how far it actually is.

 

What version of TFC are you using? Did you recently update to 79.25 and haven't relit your torches since then? As stated in the change log, if updating to 79.25 you have to light torches twice for them to actually light because they need to convert to the new blocks. You only have to do this once for each old torch that existed before you updated though.

Edited by Kittychanley
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Update: I just stood for ~30 minutes, and all my torches extinguished (as you'd expect). However, after relighting them, they all went out again almost immediately, as if they were catching up for all the periods of 2 days I hadn't lit them. I got this before too after my expedition away. This is a bug in the https://github.com/Deadrik/TFCraft/blob/master/src/Common/com/bioxx/tfc/Blocks/Vanilla/BlockTorchOff.java code. The TE (TELightEmitter) needs to tell the client about the updated time, which it's not doing, or you need to stop the client updating based on it's incorrect value in the TE, currently, the next client side random tick, the torch goes out again. (My guess, you probably need an !isRemote in https://github.com/Deadrik/TFCraft/blob/master/src/Common/com/bioxx/tfc/Blocks/Vanilla/BlockTorch.java#L242 or thereabouts, so that the client never does extinguishment of the torch, only the server).

 

Edit because I'm a derp of derptastic magnitude.

 

If you take your cursor off of the crafting grid when you bring the recipe up and make sure you aren't holding shift, NEI will animate and the gem will flip through all of them. It uses the ore dictionary, so it shows all the gems in that one recipe, instead of multiple pages of recipes.

I'm pretty familiar with NEI. It's not animating alternatives at all.

 

You didn't answer if you were using a minimap or not? Without a minimap, there's no way to confirm if you weren't just walking in circles and thought it was 2,000 blocks. If you have a minimap, you can set a waypoint for home, and then when you get to where you think it is 2,000 blocks, go look at the waypoint to see how far it actually is.

Yup, I have journeymap. Attached is a screenshot. It's actually less conical than I thought in maximum zoom out. Nothing but slate though.

What version of TFC are you using? Did you recently update to 79.25 and haven't relit your torches since then? As stated in the change log, if updating to 79.25 you have to light torches twice for them to actually light because they need to convert to the new blocks. You only have to do this once for each old torch that existed before you updated though.

76.25, and I only just started, with 76.25. This world has never seen another version of TFC.

post-7355-0-81365100-1446057637_thumb.pn

Edited by cpw
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I'm literally looking at NEI right now and watching it animate. Are you sure that you hit R on the protection meter to see it, and not U on an agate? It will only animate if you do the first one, because the second one is looking specifically for agate recipes.

 

I'm assuming you mean 79.25, because there's no such thing as 76.25

 

I also cannot replicate your torch bug. I placed a torch, added 48 hours to the in-game clock, waited for the torch to get a random tick and go out, and the relight it. I know for a fact that the client is already being synced properly for TELightEmitter because lighting the torch updates WAILA and displays the 48 hours remaining. And the torch got a random update tick so WAILA updated and then showed 46 hours remaining.

 

Edit: Journeymap can save the entire map in the actions tab. That screenshot you provided, assuming your player was standing at spawn, only shows a distance of about 825 blocks in the X direction and 375 blocks in the Y direction for a straight distance of about 900 blocks from where you are standing to the waypoint on the bottom right.

 

Alternatively, if you'd like to provide your world seed and spawn coords I'd be more than happy to open it up in Eclipse and strip all the stuff on top of the rock away to say once and for all just how big of a layer it is.

Edited by Kittychanley
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I could be that you had RNG choose slate twice or more giving you a big area. The odds are slim, but it is completely possible. I could probably generate 100 worlds and have at least 75% of the rock types show up in a 5k X 5k area in all of them, but that doesn't matter to you.

If I'm reading it correctly, at -13000 I'm surprised you haven't found cows. But again RNG.

All I can suggest is keep exploring or start a new world and hope RNG is kinder. If you do explore I'd suggest south. -10k is a good balanced latitude for growing season and decay I find. I say this even though bases in all my worlds are at -13k.

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I'm literally looking at NEI right now and watching it animate. Are you sure that you hit R on the protection meter to see it, and not U on an agate? It will only animate if you do the first one, because the second one is looking specifically for agate recipes.

Yup. I'm wondering if an addon has mashed the recipe somehow.

I'm assuming you mean 79.25, because there's no such thing as 76.25

Of course.

I also cannot replicate your torch bug. I know for a fact that the client is already being synced properly for TELightEmitter because lighting the torch updates WAILA and displays the 48 hours remaining. And the torch got a random update tick so WAILA updated and then showed 46 hours remaining.

Not necessarily true. WAILA does server->client syncing in SSP and SMP. So you could be seeing a server value or a client value. I've watched torches with "48 hours left"

extinguish right in front of me. As I say, I think you need a scheduled tick in the queue on the client for this to happen.

Note: TE's don't magically sync. Your https://github.com/Deadrik/TFCraft/blob/master/src/Common/com/bioxx/tfc/TileEntities/TELightEmitter.java code has no server->client

sync code in it at all. It's not inheriting from your "NetworkTE" code either, which *might* have magic syncing code in it. There's no syncing in the server or the client.

You're relying on the fact that setBlock removes and resets the TE on the client side (using 3 for the flag), but it is quite possible that the client will see the intermediate

state - the torch is relit, but the TE has the old time still present. I think you might be relying on an invalidate being called on the TE that isn't necessarily going

to happen, because the torch and it's unlit cousin both have the same TE type, and they're set never to update.

I could be that you had RNG choose slate twice or more giving you a big area. The odds are slim, but it is completely possible. I could probably generate 100 worlds and have at least 75% of the rock types show up in a 5k X 5k area in all of them, but that doesn't matter to you.

Yup, usually been my experience as well in TFC. First time playing since Bioxx shared an alpha of 1.7 when he started updating a long time ago tho, so things have clearly changed ;)

If I'm reading it correctly, at -13000 I'm surprised you haven't found cows. But again RNG.

Pigs for days. Deer for a good few hours. I found 1 sheep. And no cows.

All I can suggest is keep exploring or start a new world and hope RNG is kinder. If you do explore I'd suggest south. -10k is a good balanced latitude for growing season and decay I find. I say this even though bases in all my worlds are at -13k.

Yeah, I'll probably persist on here for now. I thought I'd explored more conically than I have. I don't pay attention to the map really, except to make use the in-world waypoints as a compass (away, towards or across kinda dealy).

@KittyChanley didn't know about the JM save action. Helpful, thanks! Here's mine. https://www.dropbox.com/s/yhjqyanpqu2ruu5/2015-10-28_15.04.55_Flarble_DEFAULT_day.png?dl=0

From bottom right to top left is ~1400 blocks or so I believe. The trim on the previous kinda cut off how far I'd gone south east and north. All slate. Note: I think in the very

north east, there might be a new rock type. I'll probably run out there and investigate. I may put a set of creative wings on to see.

PS. I thought I'd fixed the bug where it would generate a chunk at 0,0 when first spawning in the world? Is that still a thing? (1448 forge).

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What add ons are you using? We are running quite a few in our pack and I just checked and NEI was working as expected with the chipped gems.

 

Yeah we have hundreds of cows near our base. Although I think that may have been due to an earlier bug in pack that prevented horse spawns, dunno. I feel we need an altar we can place offerings on for RNGesus sometimes. Depending on how you feel about using F3 and the wiki you can check the Climate page for info on the spawn requirements for animals. Will give you an idea if you are looking in right place. 

 

I'm notorious for trying to go around a mountain and ending up back where I started. And that is with minimap and a marker that I'm heading for, death marker of course.

 

Well best of luck.

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Alright, I see what you're talking about now. The problem is that onBlockActivated is wrapped in !world.isRemote, but updateTick is not. I'll add that wrap after the meta == 0 conditional section, since that block does trigger setting the TE time to the current time with the onBlockAdded.

 

I'm also familiar with the separate syncing, as we've used both the vanilla furnace progress bar sync to keep our tile entities synced, as well as our own NetworkTileEntity that uses a combination of the NBT data and our own DataBlockPackets. In 90+% of cases, if there isn't syncing happening then WAILA doesn't work at all, which is why I assumed it was already syncing properly.

 

I'd have to check with Bioxx about that 0,0 chunk loading thing. I know he was complaining about it doing the vanilla spawn point chunks at one point, but I don't remember if it ever was resolved.

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Alright, I see what you're talking about now. The problem is that onBlockActivated is wrapped in !world.isRemote, but updateTick is not. I'll add that wrap after the meta == 0 conditional section, since that block does trigger setting the TE time to the current time with the onBlockAdded.

Cool, glad I could help.

I'm also familiar with the separate syncing, as we've used both the vanilla furnace progress bar sync to keep our tile entities synced, as well as our own NetworkTileEntity that uses a combination of the NBT data and our own DataBlockPackets. In 90+% of cases, if there isn't syncing happening then WAILA doesn't work at all, which is why I assumed it was already syncing properly.

So many ways to sync. Did you ever look at SimpleMessageImpl? It's quite popular I hear ;)

I'd have to check with Bioxx about that 0,0 chunk loading thing. I know he was complaining about it doing the vanilla spawn point chunks at one point, but I don't remember if it ever was resolved.

Yeah, Xcomp has complained about it too. As I say, I thought I'd fixed it, but looking at the JourneyMap, it seems to think there's a chunk at what I would guess is 0,0. So it might still be a thing *sigh* (that's what prompted me to ask,

as TFC is one of the few mods that tries to put spawn a long way from the default location).

What add ons are you using? We are running quite a few in our pack and I just checked and NEI was working as expected with the chipped gems.

It's definitely not animating. Just showing chipped agate all the time.

Addons: NEI, Decorations, AutomatedBellows, Cellars, TFC Scales, Udary Mod, Streams, InvTweaks and JourneyMap (+ dependencies).

Udary mod adds in an alloy calculator. I notice that it seems to have a super mega derped recipe for that, featuring the same "chipped agate" as the only "valid" option,

and dozens of what appear to be broken recipes.

Perhaps the ore dictionary is borked? *sigh*.

I'm notorious for trying to go around a mountain and ending up back where I started. And that is with minimap and a marker that I'm heading for, death marker of course.

Me too. That's why I have to have the in game beacon. Otherwise I have nothing to orient against.
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Udary mod adds in an alloy calculator. I notice that it seems to have a super mega derped recipe for that, featuring the same "chipped agate" as the only "valid" option,

and dozens of what appear to be broken recipes.

Perhaps the ore dictionary is borked? *sigh*.

 

As a slight off-topic, I know that the leather dyeing doesn't have ore dictionary support, which is kind of annoying since it means our base dyes can't be used to color armor, only the secondary ones since we spit out vanilla dyes when you craft two TFC ones together.

 

Do you have the NEI TFC Plugin by Dries007 installed? I know that fixes some derpiness.

 

I've asked techbrew to double check that his map saving action doesn't just start at 0,0 to confirm that the super long map isn't just a fluke of how it saves.

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As a slight off-topic, I know that the leather dyeing doesn't have ore dictionary support, which is kind of annoying since it means our base dyes can't be used to color armor, only the secondary ones since we spit out vanilla dyes when you craft two TFC ones together.

 

Do you have the NEI TFC Plugin by Dries007 installed? I know that fixes some derpiness.

http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/7587-tfc-07924-udary-mod-galenalimonite-extraction-ingame-alloy-calculator-tucker-bag-evaporator-pan-drying-mat/?p=114002

Pretty sure, having dived into his code, that he's breaking the oredictionary. This looks like old code from pre-1.7 changes to oredict. Not sure why it hasn't turned up more

often. I guess few people use the protection meter with his addon installed?

I've asked techbrew to double check that his map saving action doesn't just start at 0,0 to confirm that the super long map isn't just a fluke of how it saves.

It may be, I know there has been a bug in this area in the past though, so I'm not sure it doesn't still exist ;)
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I just did a quick test. Although what Udary mod is doing is silly, it isn't to blame. It is the decorations add-on. It does something funky to make the placable glowing gems. This is what breaks the recipe. I have to go look back through my old notes, but this change also broke my minetweaker scripts.

 

You can disable the gem module in the config and this will fix the protection meter recipe.

 

Found it. He is doing: 

 

GameRegistry.addSubstitutionAlias("terrafirmacraft:" + TFCItems.GemDiamond.getUnlocalizedName(), GameRegistry.Type.ITEM, -My Extended Item-);

Edited by Bunsan
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So Bioxx said that the issue from a long time ago was that the vanilla spawn point was set and the chunks around it were loaded before our spawn was set, and that he just overrode a lot of that code to fix it. It's a complete shot in the dark, but searching through the old commit logs, I believe these two files are primarily what he changed:

 

https://github.com/Deadrik/TFCraft/blob/master/src/Common/com/bioxx/tfc/Handlers/ChunkEventHandler.java

https://github.com/Deadrik/TFCraft/blob/master/src/Common/com/bioxx/tfc/WorldGen/TFCProvider.java

 

Not sure if that has to do with the 0,0 bug or not.

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I just did a quick test. Although what Udary mod is doing is silly, it isn't to blame. It is the decorations add-on. It does something funky to make the placable glowing gems. This is what breaks the recipe. I have to go look back through my old notes, but this change also broke my minetweaker scripts.

 

You can disable the gem module in the config and this will fix the protection meter recipe.

 

Found it. He is doing: 

 

GameRegistry.addSubstitutionAlias("terrafirmacraft:" + TFCItems.GemDiamond.getUnlocalizedName(), GameRegistry.Type.ITEM, -My Extended Item-);

Fair enough. Good find. The oredict stuff is still bad though. Oredict shouldn't get duped registrations, and he's relying on metadata facts that are not guaranteed.

I like the gem thing btw. I'll have to see what he's doing..

Hmmm. Heh. I think I'm to blame for the bug. Wow! I think there's a problem in substitution alias wrt oredict. Fascinating. I'll have to see if I can fix it.

Edited by cpw
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Oh that would be sweet. I'd like to have the gem placement feature in our pack. Had to disable it as we have recipes that split them to lower form that caused crash with the Gem module on.

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Going back to your original question of early survival and mobs in base, magic word: pumpkins.

 

I know some players don't use them, because they think they are OP, but I'm of the opinion if something is in the world, it's supposed to be used.

 

And I can see on your map screenshot you have quite a few of them, east-south-east from your base.

 

Make jack'o'lanterns and forget about mobs ;)

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I have been asking for some time now for a better mob spawning feature.

When we set the torches to go off after some time it was very controversial, the point was to avoid the torch forests and it was a valid point, but I think the mob protection build up never really solve the problem.

There remains the case in single player for extended trips and in servers for the fact the asx long as some other players are logged in the time will pass.

It's a pity to see someone base  destroyed by a creeper, because the player had to take a few days off the server.

I still believe a better solution would be for mobs to check and only spawn on grass or raw stone. that would make easy to make sure mobs would not spawn inside your buildings, that does not make sense in any case.

So you lock your doors and go on a trip, so how come there are mobs inside your house? 

In any case I do not believe this will be added to tfc, 

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Chisel one slice off floor = no spawns.

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On long trips away from home and restricting oneself to overland travel: Why? You have copper, so presumably also a saw, so presumably also lumber and planks. 1.7 boats are fragile and glitchy, yeah, but with appropriate wrangling they're not completely impossible.

 

Kittychanley recommended to me that I tap W instead of holding it, which does seem to help with client-server desync somehow although it's not so good on my fingers. I also learned totally by accident that you can shoot your boat out from under yourself with a bow, which helps with the issue of the boat flying off and crashing into the shore as soon as you get out. I do recommend logging out and back in before that, though, because if the boat's desynced the item will drop at the boat's real location and that could be a fair bit offshore.

 

Even without that bow trick, which is probably a bug, as long as you come to a complete stop before exiting the vehicle it usually doesn't go running off. I haven't done this particular thing in TFC yet, but in the past I've also created little boat catchment areas with bottom slabs, and you can sail boats right onto those and then get out with the boats trapped.

 

If you're worried about missing a layer change due to it happening underwater, and you're playing in single player, you could also open your world to LAN with cheats enabled, activate debug mode with "/debugmode", and then that'll tell you all three stone layers under your feet. It also messes with how forges heat up and use fuel, and activates the ability to add time to the calendar, so use it with caution, but it's useful.

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If one insists on boat travel, it's much better to use Better Boat mod. Those boats just work, as they are supposed to, and they don't fall apart ridiculously easy.

 

But it's not always possible to travel by boat. While rare, seeds with large continents DO exist. And travel time is not the only factor. Digging out a large deposit of coal, for example, may take even 2 in-game weeks (I had a really big one once, I'm not sure it was one or two connected, but I filled a barrel full of vessels and my inventory with coal). If your home base did not have the spawn protection accumulated (because it lays over two chunks and you keep crossing between them), you may still return at night and meet a horde of zombies. That, at this moment, can only be prevented by lighting the area up with long lasting source of light. Or coming back during daytime and relighting all your torches.

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