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17 posts in this topic

Have you read, understood, and followed all of the rules listed in large text at the top of the suggestions forum?(Yes/No): 
YES

 

So, in light of the recent discussions regarding encumbrance and how that could advance a more fully realized world, I thought it might be worth discussing how progression of lumber making might work within that context.  I considered adding this in the log chopping thread, but I think that is more concerned about how lumber works in the early game, and the notion of getting lumber before saws.

 

I guess what I'm wondering is, if people are wiling to trade lumber convenience, for a an actual tech tree in wood processing?  Right now you get a copper saw, it's kind of the same result progression-wise as a blue steel saw.  They both make lumber just as fast.  The blue has more durability, but even a copper saw lasts a long time.

 

Hand Saw Tiers & Lumber

I think much of this has to do with the use of the grid to get lumber.  It's instant.  If lumber creation were moved to block-breaking instead of the grid, it could be gradated over the tech tree. 

This could be done by requiring a cut log (as opposed to natural logs, which trees are composed of, and which it is my understanding are a different block from cut logs) to be placed horizontally.  Then the player used a saw on it in a block-breaking fashion.  So here a copper saw can be made to take longer.   By having some fair amount of time difference between logs, the game could incentivize higher tier metal saws somewhat.

 

But, can it be made that higher tier metals yield  more lumber per log?  It would be an even more significant incentive if copper saw yielded, say, 2 lumber per log, bronze 4, iron 6, steel+ 8.  The time difference is more logical though.

 

If variable yield on block breaking is not possible, perhaps higher tier tools will break multiple logs at once, like felling a tree, but governed by tier.  So copper breaks just one, bronze 2 logs, iron 3, etc.  But the logs have to all be touching in a line, end to end.

 

Sawmills

Then, there is the notion of a sawmill.  Maybe it's not necessary, if we have tiered lumber yield from handsaws.  But, if TFC is ever to have power and mechanisms and that fun stuff in the game, I think it'll need to have things like Sawmills.  Either "knock and drop" style if looking to stay 14th century, or circular if willing to stretch things a bit (or both, with circular going faster?)

 

One benefit of a sawmill could be in quantity.  They could be the top of current tfc 1 production - meaning they convert 1 log to 8 lumber, while handsaws maybe max out at 4 or 6.   Or they could be above and beyond current production levels, producing more than 8 lumber from one log - presumably varying by tier of blade.  Perhaps sawmill blades start at steel though, and move up.  No low-tech mill blades.

 

The other benefit could be time.  It could be done the easy hopper way - the player tosses logs into the mill (or hopper above the mill), which automatically cuts them over time, outputs them into a chest.  And bonus if a minecart can be made to dump the logs directly into the hopper. 

Or a bit more fidelity to rl could re required, with the player lining them up in log-fashion in front of a blade, and having the saw blade move to cut them.

 

If logs are extra-heavy, it could be made to incentivize sawing of the logs on site, rather than transporting them back home.  Though that may be a bit hard to balance with tiered progression.  In the current game, if a plank block weighs 1 stone, then the log would have to weigh 3 stone to make it at all advantageous to saw on site.   If 4 plank blocks per log can be gotten via sawmill, logs would have to weigh even more to incentivize sawing on site. 

 

The early game use of logs would have to be kept in mind of course.  If logs weighed 3 stone each, that would be 48 stone per stack.  4 stacks would leave 64 stone for other items.  But really a starting player should be able to get by with 1 stack of logs anyway.

 

There's also the possibility of an unintended effect of stone and bricks becoming easier to get than plank blocks, which may not be desirable.

 

Plank blocks are used a ton in many buildings, so I'm sure many people wouldn't love this.  But, I think it plays into the notion of a better realized world, so I thought it was worth discussing.

 

 

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 Not so sure how we could balance all  that, but I would love the possibility of carpentry as a actual skill. In ancient times a carpenter was a very respected and valued professional, some times more then the blacksmith.

From this site: http://hkcarms.tripod.com/oc5.html

CARPENTER

 

Carpenters were highly skilled and considered to be elite tradesmen. To become a Carpenter it was usually necessary to join a guild as an apprentice and learn the craft. 
Most items used during daily life in the Medieval Ages were produced and manufactured by carpenters. Homes, wagons, tables, furniture, tools and utensils were all the creations of these gifted workers. 
Knowledge of math, woodworking and the use of tools was required. Though many of the implements used were basic in comparison to those employed today, it can be argued that some fine examples of work were produced during the Middle Ages. 
Kings and nobles often sought out the finest carpenters and kept them retained on their staffs as specialists. Furnishing castles and estates was not only done for decorative purposes but also to demonstrate prestige and status to visitors. Thus a master carpenter was always in demand and could stand to earn high wages.

 

Not sure if I like this:
But, can it be made that higher tier metals yield  more lumber per log?  It would be an even more significant incentive if copper saw yielded, say, 2 lumber per log, bronze 4, iron 6, steel+ 8.  The time difference is more logical though.
I still think is just a question of balancing the speed and durability of the different metals. There is no need to assume that a better saw is going to result in more wood per log. As long as low tier are really slow and have really low durability, people will upgrade. If they are not doing it is because is not slow enough. Make it take 5 minutes in real life to cut a log with a copper saw and I can assure you people will upgrade as soon as possible.
I think it would be great if we could add more depth to woodwork. As for the sawmill is another example of the case to create the solution and the necessity at the same time. Before the invention of the saw belt, the act of sawing a log to make planks was very time consuming, in many cases the logs would just be wedged to form planks that were thicker on one side and thinner on the inner side, but those were planks nevertheless and it was possible to build many things using this system. Including houses and ships.
Edited by TonyLiberatto
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I don't think that making a saw take 5 minutes real time is at all realistic - You're talking about (scale) 6 hours.

 

*If* you want to limit the saw use, then the more lumber per saw is a better idea - not one I'm at all fond of tbh - just better.

 

I do like the idea of a lumber mill/saw mill progression - the more advanced the saw the more lumber you can make I also believe to be realistic - early, crude plank makers would have more problems with the grain of the wood,  knots and the like.

 

If you're going ot get very deatailed then you might want to think of different hardnesses of wood - think of balsa vs ironwood as extremes.

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The five minutes was hypothetical.But I have no idea how long it would take to saw a log in 8 foot length, using medieval times hand saw.

My point is that it should take as long as is needed to make sure everyone hates it enough to upgrade to better tier saw and in the end to go the extra work to make a sawmill.

I really do not like the idea of giving more wood because the saw used is of a better tier.

When you cut a log in the middle you end up with 2 pieces, it does not matter if you use Celestial steel made using meteorites that come from the other side of the galaxy, you would still end up with 2 pieces of wood. Where would the extra wood come from?

No, I say No. Make low tier tools very, I repeat very slow. Make High Tier tools faster, very faster and increase durability.

This formula was good enough for the whole of humanity for the last 200,000 thousand years in it's search for better tools. It's the reason people stopped using  stone tools. It's the reason people upgraded from iron to steel.

I am old enough to remember kitchen knifes that were made of regular iron. You have no idea how easy they would get rust. Also the constantly need to sharpen, they did not last that long. Families would save money to buy a Stainless steel knife set. Real quality silverware was so expensive that for many year it was the favorite gift in a wedding.

Bottom line is when I go to Home Depot and Buy a expensive tool because is made of Titanium, it is because it will do the job faster and last for a long time. After all there is nothing preventing me from going in my backyard, get 2 rocks and Knapp my own tools. 

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This is a case where I would probably have to go against my stated belief that time is a perfectly acceptable resource for gameplay purposes. If you start to get carried away with making things take a very long time to break etc, you end up with ppl not bothering to continue to play to get to that next metal tier in the first place. Which completely negates any further progression tech. The number of times that I've had to adjust the hardness of stone is in imperfect but acceptable example of this.

 

If my trade ship idea is implemented (And it probably will be attempted to be implemented at the least) then having more efficient ways to get more resources should be very valuable.

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No "extra wood" is coming from anywhere.

 

As I said - fewer problems with grain, knots etc..  This would mean less waste

Also, as tools get better you can make thinner planks that are just as good (up to the point where they get too flimsy), and better joints would result in more efficient use of said wood.

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I can see your point when we talk about efficiency, although to come to the point where you would be able to actually have thinner planks and a saw that would cut better through knots it would only be believable if it was an actual mechanized sawmill. By hand speed and durability is all you should get.

This is the point where I do not envy Bioxx job. To have to decide how to balance this kind of issue must be a nightmare. Specially because no matter what there will always be unsatisfied players. I keep insisting on my preference, but the truth is he is the one that have to be happy with the end result. 

My notion of balance is a bit more wide. As I teach my kids, anything in excess will be bad for you. Just try drinking 10 gallons of water. On the other hand the most powerful poison can be used in a medical situation to actually save your life. So again is all about Balance.

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Very cool ideas for progression. I think I'm personally a fan of the idea of efficiency by automation. That way you circumvent the attempt to improve value of higer tier tool materials by having a flat benefit of being able to 'drop in' a bunch of logs and watch them pop out the other side.

This could be balanced quite well by having to lay down the logs and saw them out of a GUI menu. Although this would certainly be an upgrade to arranging logs and a saw in the crafting grid. I'd certainly consider it. I suppose we'll have to wait next until the ideas of power are explained as to how to balance these.

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I think if automation will not be selected, i would prefer a trading and transportation way to do instead have a "multiplier" tier mechanic.

Maybe it will be interesting to split the needs between survivalist and building context :

 

- I like the survivalist experience in TFC1 (timing to chop down, gatherer enough to make fire pits, make a shelter... doable in the next ingame hours as soon as I choose to set up a camp). In the survivalist context, charcoal become a bit tedious but it's well balanced to be used to quickly and it's the beginning for "static" things. Having a saw it's more like a start achievement, and having high tier axe or saw doesn't change a lot the process. For me the main improvement is the durability and the little speed updrage, enough to just avoid more easily a mob hit while finishing chopping or even counter strike (protection and speed), but not the impact on the encumbrance. And, if trading will exist, here i cannot spend time to find a village to trade few quantity of resources.

 

- For medium building, developed mining area (lot of beams, with more sense in TFC2)... so a more "static" context, end of an exploration, i think players need to invest resources, by utility structures (containers, working structures...). I think metal tier changement is believable for little timing improvement but not for a large range "mutiplier" factor (so like x1 to x8 => ~ great timing improvement avoiding transportation). I would prefer a mechanical factor to just refine more quickly, by a better stability, moment arm, parallel blades... So it wouldn't be automatic, but it will require to invest into a static structure at least, a feeling close to make a forge (a thing like the Ye Gamol Chattels mod's Saw Bench). So high tier metal hand saw/axe just improve the speed a bit, but high tier metal is a thing to handle mechanical multiplier, so the refining speed, in a working structure (and protect yourself for the axe). In an working structure maybe you can fill with 3 log to gain 12 planks + 2, so have a +0.66 more than with a hand saw (if plank=logx4). The only way to have a decimal improvement based on few quantity is by a bonus based on probability otherwise, like when you saw by hand a single log if a saw bench is not selected. A high tier saw process (sawmill / high tier metal) can maybe at max make x3 improvement for production. In theses ways, you can have a feeling of less wasting but not have a too strong impact on encumbrance.

 

- For definitive and large building (villages, main warehouse, developped main base...) i would like to see transportation like a main thing (not just chop down closest trees, and also to avoid chop down forests all around a base...). Here i think it will be good to have a trading support for industrial needs. You can have maybe villagers trading large quantities of woods and lumbers, but only once you tell them where you find a wood essence (giving a wood log) and after some time. So like that, if you want to building great things, you will need : to discover some resources, to have man power (multiplayers or villagers), to wait some days but you can begins pattern prototypes or some foundations yourself, and you will need to set up transportation (from mining area, villages or a forest chopping down in multi). The thing is if you are an adventurer/miner, you can find large quantity of precious ores and other resources more valuable and with more enjoyable ways than large quantity of stone, wood, lumber. I think trading is a great thing here, joining aslo the trade ship idea.

 

Encumbrance and/or weight need to be a thing in a building and production processes i think, metal tools for mobility will be minecarts or maybe an animal powered metal cart before, no ? So i think saw and axe don't really need to impact that directly themself, but mainly basic production speed, a bit of protection for the axe, and their durability. A way to do, if possible, would be to "break" with a hand saw a wood pile, which transforms itself to a lumber pile with some bonus (decimal multiplier between x0 to x3) based on the saw tier, the resulting number of lumbers rounding down.  Example : 8 logs x4 x1.0 (copper) = 32 // 8 logs x4 x1.2 (iron) = 38.4 ~ 38 => +~19%. With a speed upgrade, I think it's enough to want upgrade but keeping consistence on the encumbrance. It stays just my own thoughts about that.

Edited by lucan6029
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I like the idea of having cutting lumber from logs taking time and having sawmills that do it much faster. It would be pretty rad to have sawmills powered by flowing water too.

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I would make have higher durability on the upper end axes and slightly lower the durability on the lower end axes. I'd allow people to team up on the same block to make it go significantly faster. I propose that logs can only be carried 1 at a time on your back slot like barrels in TFC 1 but can't go into any other inventory slot. This means early game you'll do your wood manufacturing on site, and later in the game have the option of transporting it to a place specialized for production. First you need to decide what size you want your wood pieces because once cut you can't add it back. You have cut logs, stripped logs, timber beams, planks, and sticks. Each variety has a warped version that doesn't work in recipes for that size. So a warped plank can't be used as a plank but it can be cut down into sticks or crafted into firewood. Timber and larger can't be used used in ovens/fireplaces but can be used for making charcoal or supports. Warped timber can be used for charcoal but not supports. Planks and smaller don't count toward structural stability. 

Back to the logs. To make it useful for other stuff you need to first take off the bark with your hands by punching the different sides of the log or speed it up using a draw knife. Next we can cut it into timber but when you do so it has a chance of warping. You can get 1 to 2 timbers that are either straight or warped by placing a wedge on top of the stripped log and hitting it with a hammer. The bonus 2nd timber is based on your wood working skill and represents less waste. Or if you have two people and a whip saw you can place that on top and both of you alternately clicking it to cut it faster and always get two timber and less chance of warping. Now with this timber you can pick it up, use it for supports etc. No longer needs to go on your back, it's just heavy. Or you can further cut it up with a regular saw into planks with a chance to produce warped planks on a Wood cutting bench. You do this by placing a saw or ax in it's slot and the timber in the other slot and then clicking cut which will make the timber disappear and partially fill up a gauge. Then keep clicking cut till the gauge fills up and products appear in the output slots. Ax produces 1 planks with a high chance of warping. Saw produces 2 with lower chance of warping. Higher skill gives a chance for +1 plank with ax, up to +2 planks with saw and also lowers chance for warping. This process can be repeated for sticks with the same chances. Meaning an unskilled person with just a stone ax can get as little as 1 stick per log with much wasted time. A skilled woodworker with the right tools and a buddy can get up to 32 sticks per log in a shorter amount of time. 2 timbers *4 planks * 4 sticks = 32 sticks! Not that you are trying to make just sticks but it shows what the right tools and skill can do.

Putting your stripped logs next to some water will over time produce soaked stripped logs. These have a lower chance of producing warped timber and produce soaked timber instead. Soaked timber again has a lower chance of warping and produce planks and warped planks. Soaked stripped logs and timber if left out in the sun will dry after a day or two.

Wood cutting bench is made by taking two stripped logs and placing them next to each other, then clicking on them with either an ax or saw.

Now that you have the base products it's time to go into the finished products and an additional crafting station!

Carpenters workstation made by clicking two stripped logs next to each other with a hammer.

Here you will have a crafting grid with an output slot, a craft button, a progress bar that you can click on to see the recipes, and three slots on the left for hammer, glue, and nails. Nails are made at a blacksmith, glue is made by boiling down various animal parts or tree sap in a bowl. Tree sap drops when cutting down a tree. You need to heat up the glue to make hot glue which slowly cools down.

Here you can combine two planks to make a panel, uses some hot glue. 5 panels make a box, uses more hot glue. A box, a panel, and 2 strips of leather make a chest, requires nails in the nail slot. 6 panels, 2 hinges, and nails makes a door. A barrel requires hot glue and planks surrounding a metal hoop. Quality handles that increase tool durability can be made with a single plank and knife. They can be further enhanced by applying wax. A panel and 2 planks can made into plank blocks, requires glue. I'll let the programmers come up with the rest. Each time you craft something you have a chance of making firewood instead. They higher your skill the smaller the chance. Different metals will increase tool durability but nothing else.

Down the road when you have more metal you can make a multi-block sawmill where you can specify what cut you want and just feed it stripped logs.

1050px-R%C3%B6mische_S%C3%A4gem%C3%BChle

Edited by Stroam
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That's a very extreme system for sure.  1 log carried at a time.   I'd be up for it, but I'd worry that making building that hard would turn people off.  idk.  People would basically be limited to log cabins or something like that for quite awhile.  It'd be good if adobe, sod, or hide or some other stuff could also serve for early shelter, because this system sounds like it'd take quite awhile to make a house with lumber.  Even a simple log cabin would be no simple matter.

It would probably incentivize towning quite a bit.  If one doesn't want to grind their way up through the tiers, join a town with an established sawmill.  It would definitely make tree farming more beneficial, and probably incentivize railroads branching out around towns, because wood is often needed in huge quantities for really good builds. And it might create an actual market for different types of wood, even on teleport servers, assuming the player can't carry much wood on their person.

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Building cabins is hard work as you can see here. I definitely agree your first house probably won't be a log cabin. It should be a cave. A cold, damp, dark cave. Adobe and sod would be cool. Ya, the concepts I wanted to bring out in the idea is processing outside the crafting table, encouraging people to work together, and something to work towards. Teleporting would totally miss out on having a horse haul some to railroad, where it'd be loaded and hauled to a lumber mill. Or I think it would amusing for the lumber yard to be down hill and to toss the logs into an aqueduct that carries it to the lumber yard.

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3 hours ago, Stroam said:

Or I think it would amusing for the lumber yard to be down hill and to toss the logs into an aqueduct that carries it to the lumber yard.

That would be pretty awesome.   And have a structure in the aquaduct/river below to automatically collect them.  People love that kind of thing.

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As it stands right now when you cut down a tree all the leaves disappear and you get a shower of logs all the same size that go into your inventory including the one you just chopped. It's not too hard to get tons of logs this way. What if the algorithm instead of of dropping a bunch of logs counted up the logs and wood type and then placed the logs on the ground in actual logs with different sizes that you have to cut up even more, along with some sticks.  

For example you cut down a tree and it contains 24 logs you get  two five long logs, a 4 long long, and three 3 long longs that lay on the ground. That adds up to 23 out of 24 logs. What happened to the last log? You broke it with ax. Now you can cut up these logs on the ground using your ax keeping in mind each log you ax gets destroyed. The 5 can be turned into 3 logs, the fours into 2, and the threes can be turned into 2. Doing this method you can recover around half the logs. Now later when you have a saw you won't lose any wood. 

This could be added in addition to my previous proposition and would provide additional incentive for people to tech up.

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A couple concerns.  One, what happens with plants in the area?  24 logs take up a pretty large area even if they're allowed to all be adjacent.  will plants in he area be obliterated?  popped off as drops?  I'd have to lose flowers and stuff to logging, even if it is realistic. 

Second, what about cases where a tree is on a cliff, or in a swamp?  In a swamp, if the logs are allowed to place down in water, you risk obliterating lot of water source blocks (unless void states are a thing).  They could of course 'float' above I suppose.  On a cliff, you'd probably end up with a lot of logs hanging in the air strangely Id imagine, or losing sections in the cliff face, or falling upward.  Unless it can be coded to only position them downslope, and maybe they can pile on top of each other?  Sounds complicated and error prone to me, but idk. 

What if the log made debris piles, and the dropped objects didn't automatically place, but when placed by the player were the described 3-5 long blocks.  Then they'd 'flow' downhill in item piles, and the player would have to 'dig' them up, and place them.  And the rules would only allow them to be placed on flat areas with room for them.  They'd be so heavy the player would be immobilized, and have to either immediately put them in a conveyance, or on the ground.  Seems like that would avoid a lot of complication in code-placing the logs, popping off tons of plants, and obliterating tons of water source blocks.

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2 hours ago, Darmo said:

A couple concerns.  One, what happens with plants in the area?  24 logs take up a pretty large area even if they're allowed to all be adjacent.  will plants in he area be obliterated?  popped off as drops?  I'd have to lose flowers and stuff to logging, even if it is realistic. 

Second, what about cases where a tree is on a cliff, or in a swamp?  In a swamp, if the logs are allowed to place down in water, you risk obliterating lot of water source blocks (unless void states are a thing).  They could of course 'float' above I suppose.  On a cliff, you'd probably end up with a lot of logs hanging in the air strangely Id imagine, or losing sections in the cliff face, or falling upward.  Unless it can be coded to only position them downslope, and maybe they can pile on top of each other?  Sounds complicated and error prone to me, but idk. 

What if the log made debris piles, and the dropped objects didn't automatically place, but when placed by the player were the described 3-5 long blocks.  Then they'd 'flow' downhill in item piles, and the player would have to 'dig' them up, and place them.  And the rules would only allow them to be placed on flat areas with room for them.  They'd be so heavy the player would be immobilized, and have to either immediately put them in a conveyance, or on the ground.  Seems like that would avoid a lot of complication in code-placing the logs, popping off tons of plants, and obliterating tons of water source blocks.

Yah that does sound better.

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