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cjhc12

Boats/Rafts

56 posts in this topic

Have you read, understood, and followed all of the rules listed in large text at the top of the suggestions forum?(Yes/No):Yes

Answering "no" to the above question will result in your post being deleted.

I know that Bioxx said boats would probably not be added and Instead a telaportation system between islands would be used via portals.

This made me sad because one of my faveourite things in TFC is haveing to go off on expeditions walking miles etc and that there is no such thing as a portal .

Personally I feel as though boats or some sort of water transportation should be added. Minecraft boats I know are buggy and bad but surely if this island generation is a thing we need boats not portals . Maybe you could add the option for portals as well for those players who hate travel .

I suggest that a raft should be added with a sail of skin and some slightly complicated mechanics for example a tiller and ropes like the leashes to control the sail winch it up and down so the time passes quicker .

I know this is tricky boats are noutoriously difficult and in an ideal world we would have a raft but I think just speeding up the boats a bit and makeing them unbrakeable would do .

Really I would like any solution to avoid Portals .

I really think it would be worth spending alot of time working on boats seeing as this is going to islands

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Well if islands are the order of the day then we should discuss it.

Adding (good) boats sounds rather difficult, although I do understand the feeling of loss. Would you mind explaining a bit further how you'd implement it. What ideas were you thinking of for construction and creation, and what types of control schemes were you thinking of.

 

A simple solution might be a ship item that could be placed like a minecart, thus avoiding the difficult job of checking surroundings to ensure the correct blocks.

 

If we implemented the 3D crafting system discussed in the Crafting 2.0 thread then perhaps natural constraints. i.e. only blocks made of wood could count towards the ship, and the ship had to be surrounded by water.

We could go further by creating a 'shipyard system that had to conform to specific constraints and would create a sterilised area to work in and thus a simplified check for the computer.

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I'm fine with having a discussion on this, but as I said, I really don't feel like I can spend the amount of time that would be needed to give boats the complexity and justice they deserve. Beyond this however there are some practical reasons to skip on boats.

 

MC world generation is actually pretty slow. There is only so much that I can do to optimize this process. Even a single player sailing has a habit of putting a strain on a mc server, nevermind when you have multiple players sailing. The only way to make this less noticeable is to not let players travel beyond a certain speed. Boats tend to do exactly the opposite which is when you have players sailing up to chunk boundries and often server hangs and crashes. Now, this is something that we are all probably used to dealing with in MC so you could say that its not something to worry about, which could be true. But this is just another thing that pushes me away. With portals, there will be an initial loading screen when the island first gets generated, but beyond that, there should be far less issues. 

 

In addition, I think that the progression mechanics in TFC2 (whatever they come down to in their final state) also provide enough of a pushback on this issue for me as well. Allowing the player to skip islands and go around willy nilly are just not in the cards for how I see the game playing out. The loss of control that boats create makes it a lot harder for me to balance all of the parts.

 

This is where I think that the illusion of boats makes the most sense in at least helping to recreate some of the atmosphere that would be lost with the exclusion of boats. By this, I of course mean the schematic based npc ships that were mentioned in another thread appearing at player made docks.

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I don't mind leaving boats out or as is. I am hopeful we can find and use the glider from MC 1.9 later :P

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I see the problem as it was a constant in our old server, specially with faster ships. We removed the mods and kept only the vanilla boat. In any case we got to the conclusion that the best solution is to have a pre-generated finite world. As long as the chunks are already generated we don't have the issue.

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Allowing the player to skip islands and go around willy nilly are just not in the cards for how I see the game playing out. The loss of control that boats create makes it a lot harder for me to balance all of the parts.

That kinds of begs the question, what about swimming?  Will there be a way to prevent the player from swimming between islands?  Terrible player-1-shotting sea monsters?  Boundary weather effects to drown them?   Granted a player probably isn't going to wholesale swim past an entire 4k block island, but they could theoretically run the beach and hop into the ocean on the other side, replenishing fresh water along the way.   If monsters/weather or some such were used to keep the player from boating between major islands, perhaps the boat could be kept for travel on inland lakes or along beaches?  If there is a chance for small sub-islands around the major ones, it might be nice for the player to have some kind of boat option.  Even if it were greatly slowed.  

As far as bugginess, aren't there new boats for MC 1.9?  Does anyone know if they're any better than the current ones in terms of mechanics?

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Yeah darmo I've been pondering how to make local boating work exactly. My initial thought is to make boats really slow outside of coastal hexes and freshwater but I'll have to find a way to make sure that those tiny islands are connected via coast hexes in the first place so we'll have to see. As far as preventing swimming, I think that making swimming use stamina is the best bet in this regard.

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That would make a lot of sense Bioxx. Maybe you could have 'sea water' block with different properties that slow swimming and sailing enough that even if someone did decide to travel by boat to another island it wouldn't be an issue on chunk generation. That would keep the reality and interest a few players. Although that would need to be built into the game. If players really just aren't supposed to try it might feel rather underwhelming. Like finding the farlands or some such.

The storms and sea monsters idea is very atmospheric that's for sure. I like it for that. I suppose the danger is that it could be seen a as challenge, doing the Kepler Run as it were. Unless you'd read this topic you might conclude that they were guarding some great treasure and try to get past them.

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if someone did decide to travel by boat to another island it wouldn't be an issue on chunk generation.

 

This actually isn't the case, because we generate the entire island at once. So the moment a single chunk of the island is loaded, the entire massive island is generated.

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This actually isn't the case, because we generate the entire island at once. So the moment a single chunk of the island is loaded, the entire massive island is generated.

 

Not quite correct. The island data is generated but the chunks themselves are not. They are still generated vanilla style. Which can still be very slow.

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Isn't time already for us to at least give the player the option to pre-generate a finite world ? For server owners is easy to use some plugins and achieve that, but not so much for the single player.

My point is that it would free up development of features that otherwise would cause too much lag.

In my mind the player when creating a new world could choose the size of that world and that would determine how long it would take to generate the map.

Want a quick map? Just choose a size 1000 x 1000 blocks. It will generate very fast. This way you can start to play, if latter you decide you need a bigger map, just set the game to increase the size while you are at school or work, when you back home it will be done.

Pre-generating can take a very long time as I very well know. But it really helps with preventing LAG.

If I understand the new system of Islands, is not like we actually need a infinite world anyways.

My point is that it would free the Dev's to create coding that would be to taxing on the system. 

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.... I don't think that would actually make any difference? If I understand correctly, the islands aren't generated until you approach them anyway.

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B

Yeah darmo I've been pondering how to make local boating work exactly. My initial thought is to make boats really slow outside of coastal hexes and freshwater but I'll have to find a way to make sure that those tiny islands are connected via coast hexes in the first place so we'll have to see. As far as preventing swimming, I think that making swimming use stamina is the best bet in this regard.

I have an idea ... with real sailing you tack from side to side so you can go straight into the wind .. if in tfc 2 the only way to get some speed was to go from side to side at an angle the terrain would have more time to load as you are not going straight

Or maybe if you where to do teleporting to make it belivable you could make a multi block structure shaped like a ship that when you clicked on a block it then teleport you one way or the other http://www.strangedangers.com/images/content/189119.jpg

That kinds of begs the question, what about swimming?  Will there be a way to prevent the player from swimming between islands?  Terrible player-1-shotting sea monsters?  Boundary weather effects to drown them?   Granted a player probably isn't going to wholesale swim past an entire 4k block island, but they could theoretically run the beach and hop into the ocean on the other side, replenishing fresh water along the way.   If monsters/weather or some such were used to keep the player from boating between major islands, perhaps the boat could be kept for travel on inland lakes or along beaches?  If there is a chance for small sub-islands around the major ones, it might be nice for the player to have some kind of boat option.  Even if it were greatly slowed.  

As far as bugginess, aren't there new boats for MC 1.9?  Does anyone know if they're any better than the current ones in terms of mechanics?

That is what I feel islands without boats would feel wierd

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B

I have an idea ... with real sailing you tack from side to side so you can go straight into the wind .. 

Hi, I am a certified (RYA Oceanmaster) sailor (not being a d*ck, just saying why I am qualified to help). You can only sail 33-45o into the wind, and that requires a Jib sail, although I believe the Chinese Dhow design is also pretty capable of it. Of course, by tacking at these angles, you can make way into the wind, but not sail directly towards it. It is very slow, and the waves are also against you, so it is uncomfortable sailing. 

Most sailors use tradewinds and currents, some of which change seasonally. With them you can go around the world, down wind and down current nearly all the time. 

A simple square sail would not even manage 90 degrees to the wind, on a basic boat without a keel. 

Anyway, I'll follow this topic and try offer more suggestions. 

Edited by Krom
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I'd like to present a mod that does boats pretty well, that tends to be overlooked by most.Sadly, his recipes leave a bit to be desired. It might give you some ideas, or you could contact the creator about it. I actually used them extensively in TFC1. The speeds are a bit slower than the standard minecraft boat, so you don't end up overrunning on chunk gen very often and they aren't as glitchy as vanilla boats either.

 

http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/mapping-and-modding/minecraft-mods/wip-mods/1442761

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What if instead of using only a boat or only a portal, there was a teleport area around an island and if you are riding a boat while entering this area, it transports you to the shore of the next island. If you don't have a boat, you eventually drown.

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17 hours ago, creeperCuller said:

What if instead of using only a boat or only a portal, there was a teleport area around an island and if you are riding a boat while entering this area, it transports you to the shore of the next island. If you don't have a boat, you eventually drown.

I think what you're saying is that there's a boundary <x distance> from the coast.  If you hit that boundary (or perhaps beyond it - just in case) while riding a boat you automatically get teleported to near (i.e. not so far away as to trigger the boundary, of course) the next island (or the "world map" pops up and you select your destination).  If you're not in a boat you'll just be faced with endless ocean.

I like this idea - it makes some sense in that you can't swim huge distances, and it also fits with Bioxx's idea that he doesn't want you to skip islands.  It will also allow for limited coastal use of boats as long as the boundary is a reasonable distance from land.

(This also doesn't preclude NPC boats appearing at player-made docks either.)

Edited by ChunkHunter
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2 hours ago, ChunkHunter said:

I think what you're saying is that there's a boundary <x distance> from the coast.  If you hit that boundary (or perhaps beyond it - just in case) while riding a boat you automatically get teleported to near (i.e. not so far away as to trigger the boundary, of course) the next island (or the "world map" pops up and you select your destination).  If you're not in a boat you'll just be faced with endless ocean.

I like this idea - it makes some sense in that you can't swim huge distances, and it also fits with Bioxx's idea that he doesn't want you to skip islands.  It will also allow for limited coastal use of boats as long as the boundary is a reasonable distance from land.

(This also doesn't preclude NPC boats appearing at player-made docks either.)

How do you implement "endless ocean" between the two islands in the world gen though? Islands have fixed coordinates, there's no way to put an infinite number of water source blocks between those fixed coordinates.

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4 hours ago, Kittychanley said:

How do you implement "endless ocean" between the two islands in the world gen though? Islands have fixed coordinates, there's no way to put an infinite number of water source blocks between those fixed coordinates.

Let the player be teleported back when only water is around him, I don't think you would recognize.

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4 hours ago, Kittychanley said:

How do you implement "endless ocean" between the two islands in the world gen though? Islands have fixed coordinates, there's no way to put an infinite number of water source blocks between those fixed coordinates.

A very good question!

drkoaeg made a valid suggestion - It seems to me that that should be a relatively straightorward variant of the "teleport to the next island" code being proposed. 

Alternative suggestions:

Each island could be implemented as its own "dimension" - a single island surrounded by nothing but ocean....  the "world map" would be a way to shift between "dimensions".  I don't pretend to know how MC handles dimensions or what the limit is to the number of dimensions, but it's maybe worth investigating if this idea fits.

Alternatively, if the suggestion on fatigue were to be implemented, they could simply be so far apart that it's impossible to swim between them without perishing from fatigue.

 

I just realised that I'm probably doing a bit of cross-fertilizing here - the "world map" I refer to is something mentioned in another thread where you have a "world map" where the islands that you have already explored are present, plus the islands you can attempt to travel to on your next "island hop".  I can't think of an example in another game unfortunately.  Visibility of an island on the "world map" could be linked to several factors including the relevant technology/items having been achieved/created/found.

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The problem with teleportation is that it could easily be misinterpreted as "rubberbanding" lag. This is especially the case if the player is using a minimap, has F3 up, or is using some other HUD that displays their coordinates. Multiplayer is even worse. What if two players decide to swim out together, and one gets a bit of a head start? The second player is going to see the first player disappear in front of them and reappear behind them.

Edit: As for fatigue, the problem with spacing the islands further apart is the fact that world save files can get fairly large fairly quickly. Ideally, you want the islands as close together as possible to help reduce that as well as world generation lag. A lot of servers like to do pre-generation before opening it up to players, to help reduce the lag. If the islands are all super far apart, that's going to be a massive world they'll have to pre-generate.

Edited by Kittychanley
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17 hours ago, Kittychanley said:

The problem with teleportation is that it could easily be misinterpreted as "rubberbanding" lag. This is especially the case if the player is using a minimap, has F3 up, or is using some other HUD that displays their coordinates. Multiplayer is even worse. What if two players decide to swim out together, and one gets a bit of a head start? The second player is going to see the first player disappear in front of them and reappear behind them.

Edit: As for fatigue, the problem with spacing the islands further apart is the fact that world save files can get fairly large fairly quickly. Ideally, you want the islands as close together as possible to help reduce that as well as world generation lag. A lot of servers like to do pre-generation before opening it up to players, to help reduce the lag. If the islands are all super far apart, that's going to be a massive world they'll have to pre-generate.

Both very good valid points.

So - each island in it's own dimension it is then :D

Spoiler

Just to make it perfectly clear - that "conclusion" is somewhat tongue in cheek

 

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Honestly, I'm still not comfortable with using lots of dimensions. The whole system seems rather strange to use to me.

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If you don't have a boat perhaps you could be prone to being pulled down into the water by some kind of deep sea creature, or maybe a tide could start pushing you back to the island.

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1 hour ago, Bioxx said:

Honestly, I'm still not comfortable with using lots of dimensions. The whole system seems rather strange to use to me.

I'm curious - What is it that you find strange about having each island in its own dimension?
It will certainly achieve your goal of not being able to swim from island to island - or even, heaven forfend, to the "wrong" island.
I don't see a gameplay problem with switching dimensions instead of simply teleporting (a mechanism you have suggested in earlier posts).
Of course the number of dimensions available to you in MC may be so limited that it's not a practical solution of course.  Alternatively, it might pause a huge problem for servers with pre-generated maps, I don't know.  There may also be major compatability issues with other mods that use alternative dimensions.

(Or have I completely misinterpreted what you wrote?)

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