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Krom

The Atlatl (Spearthrower)

14 posts in this topic

Have you read, understood, and followed all of the rules listed in large text at the top of the suggestions forum? - Yes
 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear-thrower

The spearthrower has was invented at least 12,000 years ago, and is essentially a stick with a carved cup at the end to hold the spear (there are versions that use string as well).
I have used one and it easily doubles the force of your throw and also makes it more accurate, comparable to a basic composite bow for range. But the damage.... Getting hit by a spear of any weight thrown with one of these would wreck you, no joke. 
Currently I think javelins and spears are a little underpowered, so I propose adding the spearthrower (possibly 2 types, one that only uses a few sticks to craft, and another that requires string and sticks), and you would need to have it on your hotbar for it to have an effect  - increasing range and damage of the spear. 

Edited by Krom
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Have read some of your posts and like some of your ideas. In principle I like the idea of the spearthrower, my problem with more weapons in the game is that in reality the player is overpowered. It is a problem with all games.

Have you ever played a game where the player dies after getting hit once? People always ask for a whole bunch of weapons, like crossbows, longbows and spearthrowers, but that would only exacerbate the problem.

People ask for realism, but realism would need to cut both ways. How many times the first arrow that the skeleton shoots at you serves just as a warning to let you know you are being attacked?

To be realistic would mean to be dead. Don't think the mod would be very successful with that kind of feature. 

So far the whole game industry uses a system where both player and enemies in most cases need to be hit more than once. The main feature in this case is mob/player health and how much damage a weapon gives. It is a delicate balance.

Right now I really do not see the need for more and stronger weapons. The mod is already to easy to survive.

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I think the damage would be mitigated by the armour bonuses, and the fact that the spear can be thrown back at you if you miss. Even if the damage was doubled and you were naked, it would still not be a one hit kill though, for a copper or bronze spear, and past that stage, it would be fair to assume that people have a lot more than 1000 hp.
Perhaps it could require leather to make it, so it is not as easy to make. Or maybe just give a 33% or so bonus to range and damage, so it is not OP.

Edit - Sorry, was not suggesting it should be a one hit kill in the game, just that it should increase the range and damage. 

Edited by Krom
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Like I said I like the idea, I was a history teacher and love the subject of stone age tools and implements. My point is that every time you add a weapon to the game, specially one that would allow for more range and deal more damage you have to re-balance a bunch of other aspects. I am 100% in favor of anything that adds more realism to the game. The problem is how to balance those features. How can we add those weapons and not make the mod even easier than what it already is? 

We just started a server called StoneAgeCraft, we use minetweaker and progression to change recipes and have requirements before the player can advance in the tech tree. We also use mob-properties to increase mobs health and damage. Everyone in the server uses leather armor as soon as they are able to make one, because to try to fight mobs without armor is suicide.

The whole thing would need to be balanced. At this point I don't think it has a chance to be added to tfc, maybe tfc2, if there is a whole rethinking of all weapons.

Right now the player is already over powered.

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Sure, I understand where you are coming from, and balancing is  a separate, and complicated, issue. I realise that it is not a high priority subject, but I just wanted to put the idea out there. 
Of course they are not needed, but maybe some people want them? If so, then it would be time to talk about how to balance them into the game, but I'm sure it would be possible. 

Edited by Krom
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I just love this kind of idea exchange. Would love to see more weapons in the mod, as long as they come together with other changes.

Is not just about monsters, right now hunting is pretty easy as you can get really close to animals. Adding a weapon with more range and damage  would make it even easier. So before we can have better weapons we need to have a better AI for animals and monsters. Unfortunately that is easier said than done. 

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I think the damage would be mitigated by the armour bonuses, 

On a related subject, the smithing bonuses (which are a great addition, imo) do not seem to show on the armour stats. Is this just a display issue, or have the bonuses not been implemented yet for armour? (I see the bonuses for weapon damage)

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And yes, it's great that the community gets some input with the updates. :)
I was thinking more of the pvp aspects for this, although I do have MoCreatures (Naturally spawning orges etc using MobSpawnControl mod) and infernal mobs on my server, so the extra fire-power is useful - check out my other threads for some configs files I made to adapt them for TFC, although I'm still working out how to scale the mob poison effects. 
I also added  Weaponmod which adds cannons that can be fired by the player, and muskets etc. TFC is great for such mods, as we have things like lead and other metals to add more realisim to the crafting. 

Edited by Krom
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Maybe it's just my playing style, but as they are at the moment, I don't think spears are worth the inventory space. 

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Ya, this definitely would have been better in the TFC2 suggestion forum - maybe Kitty can move it there?   From what we've been told of TFC2 so far, it will be much more combat focused, with progressively harder enemies.   So in that context it may be a bit easier to fit in yet another ranged weapon, in a way that makes sense.  The current game really has no need, as the bow is already relatively simple to make and can 1-shot zombies. 

 

The recipe would definitely need to be more than sticks.  Otherwise why would anyone ever use a normal javelin?  Adding leather is a step in the right direction.  I'm not super-familiar with them, but aren't atlatl javelins rather smaller than a normal one?  More like a large arrow?  So maybe you trade better range for reduced damage?  I definitely agree with Tony it would be good to make wild mobs keep a good distance away from the player - the ones that can't fight back that is >:-D  But even if these things were true, the bow recipe might need to be re-thought, as it's not terribly hard to obtain currently.

 

I did find this and this to be interesting discussions though, of relative benefits of javelin vs atlatl (vs amentum)

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Ah, sorry, I didn't even know TFC2 forum existed! It's been awhile since I played. Thanks, I'll check it out!


 But even if these things were true, the bow recipe might need to be re-thought, as it's not terribly hard to obtain currently.

 

 

 I Absolutely agree! Plus there are many stages between a basic bow and a composite recurve bow. The weapons mod I added to my server has a crossbow, so I am currently working on that to give some end-game range weaponry that works in TFC, and is hard to get.


But you did give me a good idea - yes, maybe the damage would be about the same, just greater range. But also, you could argue that the spear would need to be very straight, to fly well. To straighten arrows and spears they used to use steam to make the wood soft, then harden again inside a straight tube, so the finished spear/arrow would be perfectly straight. So maybe, you would have to build all that equipment to make the Atlatl spears, and the arrows for end-game bows etc. 

Edited by Krom
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But you did give me a good idea - yes, maybe the damage would be about the same, just greater range. But also, you could argue that the spear would need to be very straight, to fly well. To straighten arrows and spears they used to use steam to make the wood soft, then harden again inside a straight tube, so the finished spear/arrow would be perfectly straight. So maybe, you would have to build all that equipment to make the Atlatl spears, and the arrows for end-game bows etc. 

caveman used hollow bone for that, either to straighten or to bend wood. I would prefer if the system was available early in the game and weapons would benefit from metal, as spear points, arrow points and so on and so forth.

Mixing the idea of more weapons and the carpentry players would be required to use at least a stone knife to carve a bow from wood.

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I used to throw atlatl at flintknapper gatherings, before my ability to attend these gatherings became diminished.  It's rare to see this -- the only other game I've seen the atlatl play a role was in Mabinogi.  It would be neat to have a precursor to the bow, especially for stone-age hunting and protection.  The type of projectile used for an atlatl is different than a throwing spear (darts are more flexible, for example, and would need fletching to aid flight), but I wonder if that detail could be glossed over for simplicity's sake.

 

Slightly related, it would be nice to see bow crafting tiered in a manner similar to metal weapon tiers, to give ranged attacks the same stair-step value that melee weapons and armor enjoy.  Atlatls would serve as Tier 1 next to Stone Axe/Knife.  Not sure where to go beyond Short / Long / Composite / Compound, though.

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What about a sling, that throws stones and javelins? Same principle as OP.

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