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EnTro

Terrain generation

20 posts in this topic

Have you read, understood, and followed all of the rules listed in large text at the top of the suggestions forum?(Yes/No): Yes
Answering "no" to the above question will result in your post being deleted.

Would love to see improved terrain generation included. The following custom map showcases what type of scenery is already possible in vanilla minecraft:

 

http://imgur.com/a/L8EsV

I mainly want to leave this as inspiration, nature provides enough suggestions of what could be included.

 

This would obviously imply a lower base ground level and much bigger and taller mountains, enclosed lakes, rivers running in between them to the sea.

 

For the practical side of generating natural mountains and rivers (proceed with caution): http://algorithmicbotany.org/papers/mountains.gi93.pdf

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Have you read, understood, and followed all of the rules listed in large text at the top of the suggestions forum?(Yes/No): Yes

Answering "no" to the above question will result in your post being deleted.

Would love to see improved terrain generation included. The following custom map showcases what type of scenery is already possible in vanilla minecraft:

 

http://imgur.com/a/L8EsV

I mainly want to leave this as inspiration, nature provides enough suggestions of what could be included.

 

This would obviously imply a lower base ground level and much bigger and taller mountains, enclosed lakes, rivers running in between them to the sea.

 

For the practical side of generating natural mountains and rivers (proceed with caution): http://algorithmicbotany.org/papers/mountains.gi93.pdf

I was browsing imgur and the tfc forums at the same time and got so confused when I thought minecraft worldgen was on the fp. Looks awesome tho.

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While that is beautiful world generation, TFC2 is already using a hexagon based generation that really won't mesh well it such smooth realistic terrain.

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Pretty disappointed they're going with the hexes. It'd be a challenge to have nice terrain, but I'm guessing it also was a challenge to make the terrain ugly like that.

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know nothing about java coding.

I live in Florida and to be honest do not really like cold or snow, but this is breathtaking beautiful.

MsrjvcS.png

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Looks cool but that is hand built terrain, probably based off of real world heightmaps.  There is only so much that can be done with procedural generation.

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Looks cool but that is hand built terrain, probably based off of real world heightmaps.  There is only so much that can be done with procedural generation.

 

I suppose those examples are indeed hand build. I suppose it is nearly impossible to do this with procedural generation. But you can get pretty close. You might want to check out papers on terrain generation like this:

http://web.mit.edu/cesium/Public/terrain.pdf

The terrain height maps they generate are quite nice (figure 18/25/31) plus they explain the calculation by which it is generated and they look at speed performance.

The author shows examples of simple parameter modulation in figures 33/34. For biomes you could modulate the parameters used for the generation (height amplitude, noise and erosion). If you want fields, you can use low height amplitudes, for deserts with hills you could use a uniform amplitude with strong erosion, for mountains: high amplitude, high noise, low erosion.

Dressing the terrain can be done using simple rules. The placement of grass, snow and trees can depend on the local temperature, moisture and slope of the terrain. This was I believe already implemented in the original TFC. Place snow only if the base temperature is below 0 and slope is below 50%. Trees can be placed if their temperature, height and moisture requirements are met, the same for grass.

It might be a challenge, but I think it would be worth it.

 

know nothing about java coding.

I live in Florida and to be honest do not really like cold or snow, but this is breathtaking beautiful.

MsrjvcS.png

 

I absolutely agree. Just imagine digging into that mountain to find your ores!

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I've perused that paper as well as others a number of times in my quest to figure out terrain for tfc2. What is an acceptable speed for them is not remotely acceptable for minecraft. Additionally, some of what you are describing for placement of trees etc, just isn't really possible in mc or is at the very least much more issue prone than you would think. Traditional terrain generation techniques assume a finite world first of all. This means that various optimizations and assumptions can be used to speed things up. On top of that, the entire world is editable at once. in mc you only have a 16x16x256 area that you are placing things in at a time. This introduces a whole host of issues where that area isn't aware of the areas around it. 

 

These are all trials and tribulations that I've experienced when working on terrain gen for tfc1. If you look closely at tfc1 world gen there are tons of problems present, such as the straight line at a certain Z coord where jungle starts generating. I did my best to mitigate that issue but with a non finite world, you just can't.

 

I'm no master coder, nor master at anything else, but I'll admit that I get a little peeved sometimes when people come in and tell me how I should do all these things and that its not that hard (I don't direct this entirely at you entro), as if I didn't spend a great amount of time looking at all these possibilities myself.

 

As a side note, I would HATE playing on the terrain in the picture. Talk about breaking the space bar. If MC blocks were 1/4 their size then it would be fine, but with 1m blocks, no thanks.

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Isn't TFC already using a Voronoi technique with drainage calculations?  It's already head and shoulders above vanilla world generation.

 

And yeah, while those hand-built terrains look really good they're not really something you're going to get out of real-time noise algorithms working at the speed Minecraft demands.  Another thing to consider from the cited paper is that their terrain is much more granular than Minecraft's, which depends on 1m^3 blocks; the noise is never going to look as good as you want it to.

Edited by d00dV4d3r
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Isn't TFC already using a Voronoi technique with drainage calculations?  It's already head and shoulders above vanilla world generation.

 

And yeah, while those hand-built terrains look really good they're not really something you're going to get out of real-time noise algorithms working at the speed Minecraft demands.  Another thing to consider from the cited paper is that their terrain is much more granular than Minecraft's, which depends on 1m^3 blocks; the noise is never going to look as good as you want it to.

This is entirely correct. There is far more to consider with minecraft terrain generation than 'will it look good?'.

 

And yes tfc2 has a sophisticated backend in regards to the island gen model. The hex technique was chosen because it became apparent that using a more realistic looking terrain caused an immense number of problems for things like rivers which would generate on the side of a cliff.

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I'm no master coder, nor master at anything else, but I'll admit that I get a little peeved sometimes when people come in and tell me how I should do all these things and that its not that hard (I don't direct this entirely at you entro), as if I didn't spend a great amount of time looking at all these possibilities myself.

 

I understand fully, I do not know what things you have done, of course, and this is a suggestion forum, so I suggest as thoroughly as possible. I'll be in no way salty if nothing is done with the suggestion.

 

As I wrote in one of my first posts, TFC is a great game, and I absolutely admire your dedication.

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I've perused that paper as well as others a number of times in my quest to figure out terrain for tfc2. What is an acceptable speed for them is not remotely acceptable for minecraft. Additionally, some of what you are describing for placement of trees etc, just isn't really possible in mc or is at the very least much more issue prone than you would think. Traditional terrain generation techniques assume a finite world first of all. This means that various optimizations and assumptions can be used to speed things up. On top of that, the entire world is editable at once. in mc you only have a 16x16x256 area that you are placing things in at a time. This introduces a whole host of issues where that area isn't aware of the areas around it. 

 

 

And once again I ask what is wrong with a finite world? Who needs an infinite world? For what I hear it would also help with the possibility of finite water. So what if the player has to wait longer before playing? As long as we can choose the size of the world before hand I believe it would work.

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Isn't islands already 'finite', like, limited to the size of the islands? We're talking about TFC2 here, not vanilla. That means... wait, I did remember that someone said the island will generate all at once.

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This probably belongs here. Not a common mod, one of the many that tend to fall through the cracks for one reason or another. The creator seems to have ironed out most of the problems related to vanilla terrain generation. There's no hard lines between biomes, snow is based on height, and the terrain in general is very realistic and produces procedural generated examples very much like the pictures of hand created terrain others have linked. That said, I have no idea if it could be of use with the proposed hex based system, and the last time I used it (before my delving into TFC) the tree placement on hillsides wasn't always the best. It didn't seem to check to see if there was terrain under the entire tree, only under the first block generated. So some of the large trunked trees might have the base only supported by one block. A minor complaint compared to the rest of what has been accomplished though!

 

http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/mapping-and-modding/minecraft-mods/1281910

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Can I suggest adding a second world type later in the releases (IE: whenever you can get around to it.) which is based on realistic terrain generation similar to the realistic terrain generation mod only with TFC instead of vanilla?

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TBH - part of the fun of TFC for me is the 'clunky' MC terrain :)

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Wow... I must try that mod out that vladthemad suggested.  Those are pretty fantastic screenshots.

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Can I suggest adding a second world type later in the releases (IE: whenever you can get around to it.) which is based on realistic terrain generation similar to the realistic terrain generation mod only with TFC instead of vanilla?

 

Not going to happen.

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If you check out Rob's Twitter feed, he has some pretty awesome looking TFC2 screenshots from back in July 31, 2015. Personally I love the look of the flowing stream with the waterfalls. Little details like that add so much with so little. The trees look pretty amazing too!

 

CAVEAT- I know nothing about coding MC - But was wondering if it might be possible to add additional water blocks that could show how the water in a fall turns whitish like this - don't think the foam trail would be possible. Don't get me wrong though, LOVE the way the screen shot looks and the vanilla MC water looks just fine.

15486529-Set-of-cataracts-and-water-jump

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