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ancientpower

Bonesaws

13 posts in this topic

Have you read, understood, and followed all of the rules listed in large text at the top of the suggestions forum?(Yes/No): Yes
Answering "no" to the above question will result in your post being deleted.

 

 

Allow us to craft saws out of bone as well as metal.  This would either require a bone and a knife or a bone and a rock.  For balance purposes, they should have durability similar to or lesser than stone tools.

 

[x] Believable

[x] Historically accurate

[x] Gives more uses for bone

[x] Allows players to create lumber early game, which is an incredibly useful resource for building

Edited by ancientpower
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We actually explicitly removed being able to get lumber from stone axes, and intentionally put it behind the metal tool progression block. A way to revert that change will not be implemented. We have chosen to make lumber require metal for development and balance reasons.

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While I disagree with having a pre-metal age saw. I will agree however that bone tools would be a fantastic addition. Just like the Native Indians/Americans. Bone is a useful resource and is sadly getting the short end of the stick. (no pun intended). However, when it comes to bone use, it should only be used for knives, javelins. Maybe using bone as a stick it should give a bit more durability as bone is stronger than most sticks!

 

Would love to see some work around bones, plenty of things they could be used for!

Edited by Saiden
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I would love to see bone tools, as they are historically correct and an important aspect of human development.

Bones were used to carve wood, make holes, work on leather, spears and arrow heads and a whole bunch of useful tools. 

"It would require a re-balancing of the game." That's obvious.

I have asked many times for an enrichment of the stone age, it really deserves more attention.

My argument is that if speed and efficiency are enough reason to go from copper tools to red/blue tools the same could hold true for stone age tools.

If we make stone age tools ( bone, wood and stone ) slow and inefficient  it would be just a question of progression to more efficient durable and faster tools.

Does anyone really think that some of the Indian ( read Native American ) populations were unable to efficiently preserve food for the winter and could not make alcohol or vinegar, just because they had no metal tools?

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In most cases, Natives used sun-drying to preserve their food as well. They used bone tools and utensils, i.e. the whole animal was used. I hope TFC2 adds more of these tactics!

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Does anyone really think that some of the Indian ( read Native American ) populations were unable to efficiently preserve food for the winter and could not make alcohol or vinegar, just because they had no metal tools?

Technically you don't need metal tools as it is now.  You just need a large clay vessel.  But of course you'll be out all the grain avenues, leaving only a few possible alcohol precursors.

 

As for a handle, pretty sure you can already do that.  Though I don't think it makes a durability difference.  I could get behind that being a thing though.

 

But as for bone tool heads, the game would have to be drastically reworked so that stone isn't literally everywhere, because right now stone is far far easier to get.  Or, stone tools would have to be harder to make.  I'm not sure that could realistically be done though, while allowing bone tools to be easier, and still make them fit reasonably below the metal tier. 

You could limit the types of stone that can be knapped.  Which is logical.  I'm not an expert on these things but off the top of my head I'd say you could remove all sedimentary stones from the list of knappable stones (except chert apparently, which is specifically mentioned as knappable on some web pages).  This would however depend upon TFC2 (which is the only place this major a change could happen, and the forum this suggestion should have been in) having more animals than current, otherwise they would be too few.

But even in that scenario, the first time the player would have no weapon.  So they're going to have to punch an animal to death.  That seems a bit much to me.  Are we going to allow pointy fire-hardened sticks as spears next?

The whole thing just doesn't seem that worthwhile to me, in the overall scheme of things.

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Bones can already be used as replacements for sticks in crafting stone tools. There's absolutely no difference in the finished tool, but it does allow for players to instead keep a stack of bones on them specifically for emergency stone tools, and use up their stick supply for more important things like torches and ladders.

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Technically you don't need metal tools as it is now.  You just need a large clay vessel.  But of course you'll be out all the grain avenues, leaving only a few possible alcohol precursors.

 

As for a handle, pretty sure you can already do that.  Though I don't think it makes a durability difference.  I could get behind that being a thing though.

 

But as for bone tool heads, the game would have to be drastically reworked so that stone isn't literally everywhere, because right now stone is far far easier to get.  Or, stone tools would have to be harder to make.  I'm not sure that could realistically be done though, while allowing bone tools to be easier, and still make them fit reasonably below the metal tier. 

You could limit the types of stone that can be knapped.  Which is logical.  I'm not an expert on these things but off the top of my head I'd say you could remove all sedimentary stones from the list of knappable stones (except chert apparently, which is specifically mentioned as knappable on some web pages).  This would however depend upon TFC2 (which is the only place this major a change could happen, and the forum this suggestion should have been in) having more animals than current, otherwise they would be too few.

But even in that scenario, the first time the player would have no weapon.  So they're going to have to punch an animal to death.  That seems a bit much to me.  Are we going to allow pointy fire-hardened sticks as spears next?

The whole thing just doesn't seem that worthwhile to me, in the overall scheme of things.

Yeah it would require re balancing, but this is exactly one of the things that bothers me with the tech tree as it stands now. Humans survived for 100 000 years before the use of metal and they were able to efficiently preserve food and make good weapons for hunting. They build houses out of wood planks, used those planks to make boxes and even small ships, efitient enough to cross the Bearing Sea and come from Asia to North America. They hunted wales, preserve their meat, and made tools out of their bones. Some of the tools included bone saws, bone needles for working with leather, that they were able to treat without ever using Tannin.

people talk a lot about balancing and a tech tree, like is something sacred. In the end Minecraft is a game about using colored blocks to build whatever you want. In creative you have full access to those blocks, in survival you have to work to get such blocks.

Now none of my suggestions relating to stone age would give access to stone blocks before metal tools. That in itself is reason enough to for the player to work towards metal tools. What bothers me is limiting resources that do not need to be limited. Giving early access to a boat would not ruin the game, actually many players have been asking for this.

Total and complete accuracy cant be obtained in any game, specially if you also want to make it fun to play.  That's understandable. 

When I first found out about TFC I was really glad to find people that understood that you can't make a pickaxe out of diamonds, that would not make any sense.

When someone asked about obsidian tools the answer was that obsidian is actually very fragile and even though it was used to make knifes and arrow heads it would not work for a pickaxe.

Why is that? because it does not make sense. because for more that it is just a game it still is based in real life and real life experiences matter.

The main attractive of this mod is exactly because it was an attempt to make sense. that's why dirt and sand fall if you try to stack them.

Some of the things that would make sense: To be able to do some wood work in stone age. To be able to make a boat, preserve food efficiently and treat leather for clothing. Oh and also the bow and arrows.

Whenever I hear balance I can only think about speed. The crafting grid is maybe the greatest thing ever that made Minecraft the success it is today. But it is also a real problem, because crafting is instantaneous,

Any player that really loves tfc will tell you how much he appreciates the  anvil, Now we have the weaver and the leather scrapping. these features are the real beauty of tfc, because they take the crafting out of the crafting grid and make the process take time.

Now if we could create a system where the player was able to use stone age tools to make a boat for example, but it should take a long time, after all tools made of stone and bone will not carve fast. Then if the player uses a metal tool it would require less and less time as the player uses better tools. For me this would be balance.

Now dry meat is dry meat and does not need anything but wind or sun, doesn't even need salt, and for sure does not need brining, that is not dry or smoke meat is jerky beef. Adding salt makes the process faster and so does smoke.

Balance is a question of time. How long does it take for the player to do something, anything.

BTW being able to make weapons out of bones does not mean not making stone weapons. Bone has more piercing that's all. 

To be true the first spears were made using fire to harden the point and were not throw, So the hunter had to get very close to the animal and jab the spear.

Man had to invent bone tools to straighten spears so they could be thrown.Hollow bones and horns were used with steam to achieve that.

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Now none of my suggestions relating to stone age would give access to stone blocks before metal tools. That in itself is reason enough to for the player to work towards metal tools.

There are other little things that could be done as well, like requiring barrels to have iron or better hoops. You could even require chests to have iron or better hinges to restrict storage and it wouldn't be all that bad because large clay vessels are pretty good as-is (plus, you can't carry a chest on your back!) Also, having to constantly remake tools is incentive enough to search for metal.

 

Any player that really loves tfc will tell you how much he appreciates the  anvil, Now we have the weaver and the leather scrapping. these features are the real beauty of tfc, because they take the crafting out of the crafting grid and make the process take time.

So maybe for early plank-making you'd lay down a log, much like how you would for scraping, and then install a wedge or something before smacking it with a hammer until the block is harvested? Whereas metal tools simply speed up the process? Boat-making would then be as simple as using the crafting grid to lay out the planks in the normal recipe.

 

Balance is a question of time. How long does it take for the player to do something, anything.

 

Having modded a few games and played many, many others, I find that game balance is actually subjective to the person. It also goes without saying that "game balance" simply does not exist in reality; that's the real disconnect with mods like TFC. I've watched a couple of videos recently of people smelting bog iron in straw-impregnated-clay bloomeries. Another used coarse sand and horse dung in the clay. There are many techniques to achieve workable tool iron, but TFC chose a progression wall to create "balance" and for some people, me included, this is where the mod fails; it isn't "believable".  TFC is probably the best mod I've ever played for Minecraft, and it has kept me playing long past the time where I would have given up a similar game, but it doesn't capture a good semblance of reality.  That is by design, as stated many, many times.

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Why is it when people start talking about stone age tools, they always bring up American Indians?  Like your ancestors never lived in caves or knapped rocks, but were born with metal tools in their hands?  Holy crap, this thread reeks of cultural arrogance.  <_<

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Why is it when people start talking about stone age tools, they always bring up American Indians?  Like your ancestors never lived in caves or knapped rocks, but were born with metal tools in their hands?  Holy crap, this thread reeks of cultural arrogance.  <_<

Actually if you must know I have Native American ancestry, Is kind of far the grandma of my grandma, but it was a point of pride for our family. If something I said sounded derrogative in anyway please believe me it was not intentional. I use Native Americans as I could have used Australian Aborigines or some tribes in Malaysia or Africa. They are just modern examples of societies that to this day still live in the stone age, they are rare and fewer, but they do exist in remote locations, like in the Amazon. 

 

There are other little things that could be done as well, like requiring barrels to have iron or better hoops. You could even require chests to have iron or better hinges to restrict storage and it wouldn't be all that bad because large clay vessels are pretty good as-is (plus, you can't carry a chest on your back!) Also, having to constantly remake tools is incentive enough to search for metal.

 

That's my opinion as well. I have suggested that the player would need to use metal bands for barrels and metal hinges for chests. 

 

So maybe for early plank-making you'd lay down a log, much like how you would for scraping, and then install a wedge or something before smacking it with a hammer until the block is harvested? Whereas metal tools simply speed up the process? Boat-making would then be as simple as using the crafting grid to lay out the planks in the normal recipe.

 

The wedge have been suggested many times and the argument is that it would break balance. It is only true if you do not do all the other changes needed to keep balance.

For boat making actually the idea would be to use a new tool. The Adze, it's like an axe, but the blade is at right angle to the handle and is used to carve large pieces of wood. In the stone age the blade was made with a knaped stone and the handle with antlers.The carving would be out of the crafting grid, you would lay down 2 logs and use the tool with an animation to carve it into a boat. With a stone adze the process should take a long time and made quicker with metal tools.

 

Having modded a few games and played many, many others, I find that game balance is actually subjective to the person. It also goes without saying that "game balance" simply does not exist in reality; that's the real disconnect with mods like TFC. I've watched a couple of videos recently of people smelting bog iron in straw-impregnated-clay bloomeries. Another used coarse sand and horse dung in the clay. There are many techniques to achieve workable tool iron, but TFC chose a progression wall to create "balance" and for some people, me included, this is where the mod fails; it isn't "believable".  TFC is probably the best mod I've ever played for Minecraft, and it has kept me playing long past the time where I would have given up a similar game, but it doesn't capture a good semblance of reality.  That is by design, as stated many, many times.

 

The whole mining process could be made more believable and interesting. For example, primitive Romans used a system of fire and water to break the rocks and make the mining easier. If we have the weight system in tfc2 ores could be made very heavy, so the player would have a reason to build mine elevators and actually use minecarts.

 

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Hi everybody.

 

I think all knows Tinker Construct Tool System. It's pretty cool, because material get own property.

 

Example to introduce bone tool :

 

Bone Head tool > 0.75 Faster/durability than Stone

Bone Head Weapon available in stone age (Javelin, knife, Arrow head) > 1.25 More damages/durability

Bone Rod > make durability +10% than Wood rod (cause bone is better than wood in many side IRL)

 

No shovel and Axe in bone, cause make shovel of axe with femur =S

 

I think Bone needle could be good idea to sewing little pieces of leather together to make larger item or block in leather.

 

IMO silex should be use for tool/weapon crafting instead of stone and should be better

We can imagine 2 tiers material in stone age : T1 - Wood & Stone  / T2 Bone & Silex

 

Silex Head tool > 1.5 Faster/   0.5 less durability than Stone

Silex Head Weapon available in stone age (Javelin, knife, Arrow head) > 1.50 More damages/ 0.5 less durability than stone

 

To carving silex, you need stone hammer and a stone anvil.

Stone knife to carving bone instead of rock.

 

Best combinaison Bone rod + Silex Head for damages / fast

Best conbinaison Bone + Bone head for durability (execpt shovel/axe)

 

 

Here the idea is to promoted silex and bone usage

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Actually if you must know I have Native American ancestry, Is kind of far the grandma of my grandma, but it was a point of pride for our family. If something I said sounded derrogative in anyway please believe me it was not intentional. I use Native Americans as I could have used Australian Aborigines or some tribes in Malaysia or Africa. They are just modern examples of societies that to this day still live in the stone age, they are rare and fewer, but they do exist in remote locations, like in the Amazon. 

 

:huh:

Edited by WillOfStone
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