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mattockman

Having difficulty getting the bronze ratio correct

23 posts in this topic

Finding it really hard to get bronze. I try and follow the recommended ratios and nothing happens after it's been in the kiln. I can't work out if it's supposed to be by number of ore items or if you have to take their unit worth into consideration. I tried both approaches and they both failed. Please help :(

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Bronze is actually quite easy to make: 90% Cu (Native copper/tetrahedrite) and 10% Sn (Cassiterite)

 

However, you need to be careful of the quantity each nugget/ore yields. 

Nugget: 10 units

Poor ore: 15 units

Normal ore: 25 units

Rich ore: 35 units

 

1 ingot = 100 units

 

Then you do the maths i'm sure you are capable of doing   :)

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The answer to your question is to take unit worth into consideration. The number of "items" is irrelevant. You might have some surface rocks worth 10 units each, ore from a poor vein worth 15, and ore from a rich vein worth 35. What they are worth is what you are fitting into percentages.

 

Since a usable amount of bronze is 100 units, the hardship of working in percentages can be simplified. As long as your total amount equals 100, you can know that, for instance, 10% tin required for Bronze means you need 10 units of tin-bearing ore (Cassiterite).

 

If you are still having trouble, let us know. Maybe post what ores you have and we can work out some options.

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thanks guys. I can't find cassiterite anywhere but following your suggestions I used ratio of 32 tetrahedrite (15 units each), 7 sphalerite (35 units each), and 5 bismuthinite (25 units each) and got bismuth bronze.

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thanks guys. I can't find cassiterite anywhere but following your suggestions I used ratio of 32 tetrahedrite (15 units each), 7 sphalerite (35 units each), and 5 bismuthinite (25 units each) and got bismuth bronze.

 

Just remember that combination adds up to 850 units, so you're going to end up with 8.5 ingots, and won't be able to do anything with that half-filled mold until you make more.

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thanks guys. I can't find cassiterite anywhere but following your suggestions I used ratio of 32 tetrahedrite (15 units each), 7 sphalerite (35 units each), and 5 bismuthinite (25 units each) and got bismuth bronze.

 

Here's how I'd muddy through it. Start by targeting a yield of 100. You've got rich ores, so I know it won't work out, but for the sake of process start there.

 

Target yield = 100

Bismuth (25) / Zinc (35) / Copper (15)

10-20 / 20-30 / 50-70

 

We can see off the bat your Bismuth and Zinc are both too rich to fit into a yield of 100. Let's try 200, multiplying across the board.

 

Target yield = 200

Bismuth (25) / Zinc (35) / Copper (15)

20-40 / 40-60 / 100-140

 

This time you can fit a Bismuth in there, but Zinc still doesn't work (35*2 = 70, out of bounds). Try 300.

 

Target yield = 300

Bismuth (25) / Zinc (35) / Copper (15)

30-60 / 60-90 / 150-210

2 (50) / 2 (70) / 10-14 (150-210)

 

Now we have the smallest batch of Bismuth Bronze you can make with the given ore. But let's see if we can make it with no waste. You have no choice about the Bismuth and Zinc, there must be 2 and 2, for a total amount of 50+70=120. So we have to make 300-120 = 180 units of Copper, where your Copper units are worth 15 each. 180 / 15 = a nice and even 12.

 

So to yield an even 300, you would use 2 regular Bismuth, 2 rich Zinc, and 12 poor Copper.

 

Let's go back and check the math since I'm making this up as I go.

50 / 300 =  16.7% (Check for Bismuth)

70 / 300 = 23.3% (Check for Zinc)

180 / 300 = 60% (Check for Copper)

 

50+70+180 = 300 (Check for total yield)

 

Since your ore is plentiful, just use this base yield of 300 in multiples for bigger batches (4 / 4 / 24 for a yield of 600, etc...) The bigger batches you use, the more play you have to fine tune some ores up, and some ores down. But since you've obviously found veins of all three instead of using surface rocks ( yield 10 each), doing so would not be necessary.

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I'd say just go with small ores, as they are the easiest to work with(a even 10 units each!), until you get a crucible, and can actually see the amount of metal you have, the percentage of each metal, etc.

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wow you can do that with the crucible? I didn't even know. Still in the very early bronze age.

 

Hey TomatoThief I like your approach. I just spent a bit of time trying to work out all the possibilities for different ore combinations that would have the highest possible ingots with no waste. Assuming that you just stick to one quality of copper in each combination (i.e., you don't have one poor copper and another rich) there are 27 different possibilities.

 

I was about to sit down and work them all out (that's kind of nerd I am) but when I hit the first possibility (poor tetrahedrate, poor zinc, and poor bismuth) I discovered that there are four different ways to combine the poor quality ores so they fit perfectly into 300 and stay true to their percentage requirements. Then I thought 'holy crap man, there could be 108 different valid combinations!!!' and stopped.

 

I think it's kind of cool that we have to actually think about it before we combine ingredients and smelt as that's what our ancestors would have had to do. I'm just glad the game doesn't punish us when we mess up with a message like "you have produced a useless lump of crap. ha ha". Ores are hard to come by!!!

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The good thing about TFC is that once you find a subterranean vein, you've got an established supply of ore for a LONG time. So in your world, you have three established veins of varying quality, and you really only need to go through this kind of "figuring" once. If you run dry of one ore, you can find a new source and re-figure the formula if it's a different quality.

 

It might be fun to write a script for running this process in all possibilities. I posted a bronze ratio list in the Guide forum which was generated by code, but it's not so much useful as me having fun with Visual Basic.

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It might be fun to write a script for running this process in all possibilities.

 

Yeah, it's only a matter of time before TFC drives me to just write a toy ILP solver ¬_¬

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Rather than coding the entire process, I decided a graphical interface would be more useful (and easy, though less fun) to track visually what's going on. I did have some user defined functions for determining max and min, so that was fun. The following images demonstrate automation of the process I went through several posts ago.

 

Here's a shot of the sheet which allows for all three bronzes. The orange boxes are for user input. The grey boxes are calculated fields and generate an electric shock if clicked on. "OoB" stands for "Out of Bounds", which means no solution exists for the desired yield.

 

Posted Image

 

Next I input the values for ore quality (25, 15, and 35), and target a yield of 100. We can see immediately that Bismuth and Zinc are OoB.

Posted Image

 

Bump the target yield to 200 and find out that Zinc is still OoB.

Posted Image

 

Bump to 300 yield and now we have valid quantities for all three component ores.

Posted Image

 

My range for Bismuth and Zinc constrains me to 2, so I enter 2 for each. I enter the max of 14 for Copper with the anticipation of working down, although you could start at the minimum and work up, or whatever.

Posted Image

 

I'm 30 units over my target, and it just so happens that Copper is worth 15 each. So I back off from 14 to 12 Copper. Profit!

Posted Image

 

 

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I'm actually writing an Alloy Calculator at this very moment in HTML5.  Should have a working prototype out by this weekend.

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I would love to use your Alloy Calculator. 

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A calculator with a gui. Wow! I'm impressed.

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http://infinitepossibilitygames.com/TFCAlloyCalc/

 

It's still in rough alpha.  Currently, it only does things you should be able to do in a vessel which should cover Tier 0-2.

 

Good job! I suggest arranging the ore in a grid with each row representing one type, and each column representing one concentration. So row 1 should just be Bismuth, row two Cassiterite, etc. Or flip it so each column is one ore type since you have more columns than rows. Also, and maybe more difficult, if the output detects the right kinds of ore for an alloy, display the valid percentages next to the actual percentages so you know at a glance what to target.

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Good job! I suggest arranging the ore in a grid with each row representing one type, and each column representing one concentration. So row 1 should just be Bismuth, row two Cassiterite, etc. Or flip it so each column is one ore type since you have more columns than rows. Also, and maybe more difficult, if the output detects the right kinds of ore for an alloy, display the valid percentages next to the actual percentages so you know at a glance what to target.

 

I actually intend to have a search field so grid arrangement would be kinda moot once that's in place.  My intention is to eventually make it so that it's able to be viewed/used on small screen (tables and smartphones) as well, so I might even have less space than I currently do.

 

Showing alloy ranges is something that can be done.  I'll put that on my to do list.

 

As soon as Kitty tells me where she wants me to put it, I'll open an official thread where bugs and suggestions can go.

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Can you add ingots?

 

There's no point for him to add ingots, because you can't put ingots in a vessel.

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Official Thread: http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/5774-alloy-calculator/

 

Ingots will be added (along with unshaped) once I am done with Vessels and work on a "crucible" interface which will be down the road as I need to figure out a way for it to be useful.  Probably going to make it so you can input what you have and it'll show you want you can make and what quantities.  Need to figure out how I want that to work interface wise.

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Official Thread: http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/5774-alloy-calculator/

 

Ingots will be added (along with unshaped) once I am done with Vessels and work on a "crucible" interface which will be down the road as I need to figure out a way for it to be useful.  Probably going to make it so you can input what you have and it'll show you want you can make and what quantities.  Need to figure out how I want that to work interface wise.

 

Yes, I think this should in general work with an idea that user enters what he wants to make, then how much does he have from the requirements. Computation result then shows the range of ingredients (for which quantites weren't specified) required to actually make the alloy. It should also have an option (checkbox or the like) to snap to hundreds of units of resulting alloy (if it can achieve that given ingredient quantites, if it can't it will show a warning along with the result).

 

completely awesome dude. Wish I could code like that.

Haven't seen his code, but I can safely say that you can pretty easily learn to code not only like that, but possibly even better, if you want to learn and practice.

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