Combat Strategies

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

EDIT: Firstly, For those that keep saying that they don't want classes in the game, please, PLEASE read this before posting:

I don't think people are really understanding this post. He isn't proposing fixed "choose one" classes. What he is saying is that these are the "classes" that may form with regards to equipment choice alone. He isn't proposing an RPG style class system, merely pointing out some of the potential play style/equipment choices to go with my Combat Overhaul threads

And here are the post Jed is talking about in the quote above:

http://terrafirmacra..._8117#entry8117

http://terrafirmacra...erhaul-cont-23/

http://terrafirmacra...rhaul-final-33/

As this is related to them, if they are not implemented, then this is unlikely to be implemented.

Secondly, no, this doesn't go in the suggestion area, as it is not something which would change by itself the gameplay. It's only a clasification proposal, based on what's said in the linked posts, plus something i added by myself.

That said, let's go with the clasification, and let's start with: what is going to be clasificated? The players combat styles if the upper things are implemented. And how they are clasified? Firstly, in 3 different groups: Warriors, Rangers and Alchemists. "Alchemists?!" you may ask, and i'll say you can calm down; they are not mages, just guys which use potions or golems for fighting.

-note: the alchemists name idea was from daxx367, thank you :3-

Now, let's take a close look. Even if 2 players are Warriors, they combat styles could be extremely different; that's why, next to the class, the strategy is specified with a number. That way, one of them would be a Warrior2, and the other a Warrior4. Same group, different style.

I'm gonna take a better look at the 3 groups, showing 4 different variants of each one. If you know a strategy different from mines, please post it. Please note, that any kind of advantage a class could have among any other, isn't based in simply "i like this more", it's based in logic and tech level of the player. However, in order to make the things a bt easier, everytime i say a class is better than other, i mean it is better if they are at the same tech level and conditions among the start of the battle.

Warriors:

warriors rely on melee attacks for defeating his oponents. They are the only ones who doesn't need any kind of ammo. Generally strong against Rangers, as their light armor are no challenge to the weapons of the warriors, and the arrows are rarely able to go through the warriors armor; Generally weak against Alchemists, as the armor can't protect them from the potions effects, and are pretty hard to block as they are not usually directed to the warrior itself.

Warrior1:

Armor: Heavy. High tier alloys generally.

Weapons: Heavy. (two-handed sword/hammer)

-High resistance, very slow.

-Highest attack, short-medium range, very low hit rate.

A brute strategy, if you will, it consist in going towards the enemy and hit it, as it's hits could easily kill a medium-armored guy. It's high armor makes him almost invulnerable to arrows, and it's hardly damaged by a blunt weapon. Devasting against any slow opponent, as well as any opponent with short range. However, faster opponents or high-ranged opponents -beside archers- are pretty effective against him.

Warrior2:

Armor: Heavy.

Weapons: Medium-heavy (Tower shield and spear)

-Very high resistance, with high blocking chances. It's the slower class.

-Medium-high attack, short-medium range, low hit rate.

The absolute defence: This one will try to avoid any amount of damage, and keep at the right distance of the opponent to attack it without being hit. Although it's slow, getting too close isn't a good idea; he will knock you back to keep the distance. The worst enemy of any slow short ranged enemy, 'cause damaging him is nearly impossible. It's specially weak to alchemists, as the potions effects are the only thing he can't block, and them can leave him unable to defend himself.

Warrior3:

Armor: Medium. Tier 2 or 3 metals generally.

Weapons: Medium (Any shield but tower shield, mace/sword)

-Medium resistance, low/medium block chance, medium/medium-high speed.

-Medium attack, short range, normal hit rate.

The MC warrior stereotype; tries to attack from the back, will go spam clicking at any chance, and will only block or dodge a hit if necesary. A slow opponent it's in disavantage, even more if his armor is light; a good armored opponent with high attack will defeat him easily, even more if it has a long range.

Warrior4:

Armor: Low/nothing. Leather.

Weapons: Low (mace and mace/sword and sword/mace and sword)

-Very low resistance, can't block, very high speed.

-Low attack, short range, highest hit rate.

He totally relies on speed; even though he has a low damage, his high hit rate ensures he's gonna take a great chunk of the opponent's life before running out of stamina, and before the opponent being able to counter attack him. Then he run away and keep the distance for a short while, to gain some stamina. His higher speed take the place of the blocking by dodging most of the attacks, even potions. And then, recovered, attacks back, until the opponent falls. Excelent against slow, short ranged enemies; However, a ranger with good aim can take him down quickly.

Rangers:

the rangers rely on their shots in order to defeat their enemies; their ammo can be either arrows or bolts, depending on the weapon. Generally strong against Alchemists, because of their superior range and damage; generally weak against Warriors, due to their light armor which is no challenge to the warriors's weapons.

Ranger1:

Armor: Low/nothing.

Weapon: Medium-High (Long bow)

Ammo: Medium-High.

-Very low resistance, medium speed.

-Very high attack, highest range, low hit rate.

The TFcraft's sniper, this guy hides as far as possible of the enemy, and attacks from the distance. Two shots are generally enought to kill a medium-armored enemy. 'Cause of the distance, it has a pretty bad aim, but if he fails he is fast enought to hide again, for avoiding the enemy to discover him. Is pretty good against groups, as if the arrow doesn't hit the one he aimed to, it will probably hit another one. Slow enemies are easy as well; however, fast enemies or high armored enemies are a little harder to beat down, and he has no chance in the short range fighting.

Ranger2:

Armor: Low.

Weapon: Low-medium (Composite bow)

Ammo: Medium.

-Low resistance, medium-high speed.

-Medium attack, medium range, normal hit rate.

He keeps moving most of the time; he has an exceptional aim, being able to hit the target even when both him and the target are moving. Very hard to hit, as he keeps a distance. A slow, low armored enemy would have no chance at all; a faster enemy can however finish him fastly.

Ranger3:

Armor: High.

Weapon: High (Crossbow)

Ammo: High.

-High resistance with very low speed.

-very high attack with short-medium range, and a very low hit-rate.

Alike other rangers, this one doesn't care about receiving damage or the distance between him and the opponent; Even with his low hit rate, he can kill the opponent before it does. It's the archer with the best aim of them all. Although he is effective against almost any enemy, there are some exceptions: a group of enemies can kill him easily; a equally armored enemy, with equal attack but higher hit rate may be very hard; and he's specially weak to alchemists, as their potions effects may lower the aim he relies on.

Ranger4:

Armor: Medium.

Weapon: Low-medium (Composite bow)

Ammo: Low (only poisonous)

-Medium resistance, medium speed.

-Low attack, medium range, normal hit rate.

He sneak attack the opponent, simply trying to poison it to death. His arrows can have different effects, depending on the material they're made of (lead arrows) and/or the treatment it received (dipped in some cave spider venom). He'll try to keep the enemy poisoned, and unable to fight back, until they're death. It's good against low-armored foes; High armored, or fast enought to dodge, enemies are mostly unaffected by his poison, making him uneffective against them.

Alchemists:

as i said before, alchemists rely on potions or golems in order to finish their opponents; their ammo doesn't need a weapon for using it, leaving their hands free and ready to use any other weapons; in potions case, it also has an area of effect, which has the advantage of being impossible to block and able to affect more than one enemy at once, but also the down point of being possibly affected by the potions if they are too close from the target. They are generally good against Warriors, as their potions are unaffected by armor or blocking, but bad against Rangers, as they have a higher range and attack.

Alchemist1:

Armor: Medium-High.

Weapon: Low/nothing (mace and buckler)

Ammo: Potions (only positive ones).

-Medium-high resistance, low block chance, low speed.

-Low attack, short range, normal hit rate.

He's made for team fighting. His potions can heal the whole group, as well as improve it, making him nearly unbeatable when in a group. However, he's good by his own too; As well as he can improve and heal his team, he can improve and heal himself. His resistance is already pretty high, but with his potions, he becomes nearly god-like. The down side? The same potions, as they have to be in the hotbar for being used, are hard to make, and not stackable, so even when he can heal himself or others several times, he's gonna run out of potions at some point. An opponent with very high attack can force him to use his potions fastly, as well as a high hit rate enemy. It's pretty good against low armored, slow foes.

Alchemist2:

Armor: Low/nothing.

Weapons: Nothing.

Ammo: Potions (only negative ones).

-Very low resistance, with very high speed.

-Medium/Null attack (depending on the used potion), medium range, high hit rate.

The exact opposite of the previous one, god-like against groups; due to area of effect of his attacks, he can affect the whole group only with one potion, leaving them blind, weak, slow, confused or simply damaging them. His high hit rate can make him demolisher. As the previous one, he has some inventory space problems; However, he use to carry more harming potions than anything else, so with only one inventory he could kill 20 enemies fastly. A short ranged fast enemy is his worst nightmare, as he can't fight back without being affected by the potions as well. Any medium ranged, or slow enemy, instead, will see in him their worst nightmare...

Alchemist3:

Armor: Nothing.

Weapons: High (two-handed sword/hammer)

Ammo: Potions (only negative ones)

-Very low resistance, medium speed.

-Very high attack, short range, low hit rate.

He makes ambushes; wait for the opponent to get close enough, hidden in the dark, and then throw at them a potion -mostly blinding potions- and calmly walks towards them and kill them, or finish them with harming potions. Bad against high resistance, high attack enemies, which can kill him quickly in battle, but very good against low armored enemies.

Alchemist4:

Armor: Medium.

Weapons: Low (mace/sword and a shield)

Ammo: Pumpkins, snow blocks and iron blocks (i know there's no way to get them in TFC...)

-Medium resistance, chance to block (the shield defines how much), medium-high/medium/medium-low speed.

-Medium attack, short range, medium hit rate.

This one relies on time and golems. He quickly creates a large army of golems at his service. The golems die when he does. I'm got short in ideas in this one... A fast enemy with good aim can kill him fastly, but most of them will be focused in the golems while he makes more golems...

[daxx367 6]

I like it and with golems, I think you should be able to summon them. (The first person who complains about realism I will fined and kick there ass)

Maybe you make chalk from well chalk, then use it on the ground then through items on to it then puff iron golem.

[Jed1314 420]

This is awesome man !

Totally where I hoped that the suggestions would go, where players would find the optimum builds etc.

I totally never thought of the "mage" concept

I don't think I even mentioned potions in my overhaul because I never use them

Well done man Linked in the OP of the overhauls now

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

I included the mages 'cause i really hope Bioxx adds a way to create potions to the mod. Obviously pretty different from the vanilla way, even more if he decides the nether isn't gonna be part of the mod...

Please note, when i talk in some of them about "Very high speed", i'm really talking about them moving at the speed you have by walking in vanilla minecraft, as the rest of them are slowed by their big weapons and heavy armors.

Lastly, as some of the classes work good in teams, maybe you could think in group strategies including some of the classes here. A Mage1 with a Mage2 make an excelent team, as the first would cure the second while the second finishes the enemies :3

[Incompatibility 16]

There's already another mod similar with classes and races, but doesn't have as broad spectrum of weapons and armor. I'm not sure if you've heard of H/M but I'm reminded of that whenever someone mentions classes.

TFC isn't one of those mods where you pick a class, rather you wear armor and choose weapons and you become that without actually choosing it.

[Jed1314 420]

TFC isn't one of those mods where you pick a class, rather you wear armor and choose weapons and you become that without actually choosing it.

That is what he is saying, they are the "unspoken" classes of equipment choice

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

I'm not sure if you've heard of H/M

H/M??? .__. nope, i didn't heard about it.

This are not "classes" per se, as they are not a permanent chose, neither something you can make Steve train. What i wrote are simple strategies you can use whenever you have to fight with other guy -in a pvp server-, together with some specifications about the best way to equip yourself if you're gonna follow them, and some advice about what you will be able to deal with and what you won't if using the strategy.

And Steve won't get any better in using any strategy; YOU will. This also counts the fact that MC needs an inmersive gameplay to be completely enjoyed. It's not like in one world you have an expert warrior who would be crappy as a ranger, in other you have an excelent mage who doesn't even know what a sword is, and in other you're a very experienced archer who hates even touching potions. If in one world you master one strategy, is because you mastered the strategy, not Steve; then, if you start a new world and -via inventory editor- give yourself the best set possible for that strategy, even if you haven't even yet moved in that world, you will be still as good as in the last one.

[daxx367 6]

The mage 'class' should be alchemist in stead.

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

Lol, i didn't thinked of that name... by now, though, i'm about to turn off the pc and go to bed. Maybe tomorrow i'll change it.

[IHaTeD2 3]

I think classes are against the sandbox part of the game.

Heavy Armors and Weapons need some sort of weight penaltys which will exhaust you more and let you move and hit slower and maybe don't let you use komplex Weapons like Bows or with a heavy penalty.

Light Armors need more types of Leather, maybe more Resources like Bones and Chains etc. giving you less protection but a better movement and faster hitting.

I don't think it would make sense to add more Weapons, Armors and Mechanics before we have something like this.

I would really like to play more in light Armors instead of heavy Plates.

Maybe this System could be improved with a Sneaking one where you make more Sound with heavy Armors.

Possible Armor Types:

Light (Leather, some Bones depending on which Bones - a Dragon for example would have lighter Bones because he wouldn't be able to fly with heavy ones, very light Plates - more a decorative armor).

Medium (Chains, Scales, light Plates)

Heavy (Heavy Plates)

[Jed1314 420]

I think classes are against the sandbox part of the game.

Heavy Armors and Weapons need some sort of weight penaltys which will exhaust you more and let you move and hit slower and maybe don't let you use komplex Weapons like Bows or with a heavy penalty.

Light Armors need more types of Leather, maybe more Resources like Bones and Chains etc. giving you less protection but a better movement and faster hitting.

I don't think it would make sense to add more Weapons, Armors and Mechanics before we have something like this.

I would really like to play more in light Armors instead of heavy Plates.

Maybe this System could be improved with a Sneaking one where you make more Sound with heavy Armors.

Possible Armor Types:

Light (Leather, some Bones depending on which Bones - a Dragon for example would have lighter Bones because he wouldn't be able to fly with heavy ones, very light Plates - more a decorative armor).

Medium (Chains, Scales, light Plates)

Heavy (Heavy Plates)

I don't think people are really understanding this post. He isn't proposing fixed "choose one" classes. What he is saying is that these are the "classes" that may form with regards to equipment choice alone. He isn't proposing an RPG style class system, merely pointing out some of the potential play style/equipment choices to go with my Combat Overhaul threads

I have already suggested what you are suggesting here:

http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/1072-total-ranged-overhaul/

http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/1094-combat-overhaul-cont-23/

http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/1097-combat-overhaul-final-33/

Thosea are the threads these "classes" are based on as well, it may give you more context to understand this post

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

I think classes are against the sandbox part of the game.

Heavy Armors and Weapons need some sort of weight penaltys which will exhaust you more and let you move and hit slower and maybe don't let you use komplex Weapons like Bows or with a heavy penalty.

Light Armors need more types of Leather, maybe more Resources like Bones and Chains etc. giving you less protection but a better movement and faster hitting.

I don't think it would make sense to add more Weapons, Armors and Mechanics before we have something like this.

I would really like to play more in light Armors instead of heavy Plates.

Maybe this System could be improved with a Sneaking one where you make more Sound with heavy Armors.

Possible Armor Types:

Light (Leather, some Bones depending on which Bones - a Dragon for example would have lighter Bones because he wouldn't be able to fly with heavy ones, very light Plates - more a decorative armor).

Medium (Chains, Scales, light Plates)

Heavy (Heavy Plates)

I don't think people are really understanding this post. He isn't proposing fixed "choose one" classes. What he is saying is that these are the "classes" that may form with regards to equipment choice alone. He isn't proposing an RPG style class system, merely pointing out some of the potential play style/equipment choices to go with my Combat Overhaul threads

I have already suggested what you are suggesting here:

http://terrafirmacra...anged-overhaul/

http://terrafirmacra...erhaul-cont-23/

http://terrafirmacra...rhaul-final-33/

Thosea are the threads these "classes" are based on as well, it may give you more context to understand this post

Also, i wanna add, the movement penaltys you've proposed are already took in count, and aplied.

Maybe the name just confuses everyone, so i'm changing it for avoiding further confusion.

EDIT: okay... i don't know how to change it's name... xDUUU i think i will just quote what Jed said and leave it on the very top of the OP.

[yubyub96 68]

hmm this is interesting, but i dont know if i understood correctly, you want us to have classes that we can change or to be fixed?

Talking about classes i would preffer a diferent style, this would be like a game called KingArthursGold(aka KAG)

In this game there are three classes, knight,archer and builder. you can change whenever you want as long as you are in the spawn or in a knight/archer/builder workshop which is made by the builders.

Knights cant destroy blocks unless they have bombs, archers can only shoot arrows,hide in the grass and climb trees, and builders, well they build XD they make bomb/arrows shops and quarters for health,etc and they build estructures.

If this was to be implemented in TFC it would bring a much more strategic PVP because you can only choose attack or build, not both.

Try out this game, its free http://kag2d.com/en/

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

This was me being over-excited by the already stomped combat overhaul of Jed but as i said, those suggestions were stomped, and so this was indirectly stomped as well. It's just fighting styles i thought could appear IF those suggestions were implemented into TFC; non-fixed styles that only require you to actually have the required equipment, and aren't the only ones avaliable.

[stringburka 72]

Now, I know this ain't going to happen but discussion can be fun anyways so...

Going by what I've read on the other topics combined with the vanilla potions and my (albeit limited) experience of vanilla PvP, I don't really see why anyone would want to restrict themself to a single setup. Equipment choice heavily depends on what you're aiming to do. Whenever you fight outside and thus can move freely, light armor and a varied weapon setup will always win over heavy armor and short-range weapons, when potions are available - anyone that can outrun an enemy can also quickly heal and boost themself, not to speak of maneuvering to more beneficial positions - a large part of the strategy in any pvp where the health is high compared to damage (as in minecraft). I think everyone will use certain potions in combat that just are too good to skip (8 minutes each of +20% speed and damage? Yes please!). If you're in a cave, mineshaft or structure of any kind, mobility will be of much more limited use and there's a large risk of traps (if TFC has traps? haven't come far enough to reach that tech level, except of course for bug-traps like torch-sand traps), which means heavy armor will almost always be preferable. And in any kind of battle, everyone will want a bunch of snow golems.

Without actual skills or similar, there's really no use for specialization, apart of course from an economic standpoint - but even so, the bow has to be cheap enough to allow mid-tech players to afford one, and that means it's hard to prevent high-tech players from having both that and melee weapons. And if someone can afford two dozens of potions, surely the warrior and ranger types will be able to afford a few. Whether this is a good thing or not is a matter of taste, but I prefer that to rewarding uber-specalization.

The one thing that would benefit specialization is enchanting, as it's harder to keep up many good enchanted pieces.

EDIT: Added a few more thoughts.

EDIT2: Even more.

[stringburka 72]

As the system is right now though, I feel that even though combat _action_ is pretty limited, the very nature of minecraft makes combat _tactics_, especially when there's more than two combatants, both interesting and important. While combat can have different goals, there are many things that are more relevant in minecraft than in many other modern PvP games. Not in the least teamwork.

Basically, in a game such as minecraft, if there's a 5v5 match, there's little use for lone wolves - because healing is available and hit points quite high compared to damage, and it's easy to get up a shelter from ranged attacks, you can't one hit KO people easily, compared to other PvP games like CoD or whatever.

I can see several tactics that are very useful in minecraft.

On placement and movement:

Since ambushes are pretty easy in minecraft due to 3rd person modes, easy modification of terrain etc, moving spread out makes one very vulnerable to such things. I don't know how easily traps are made in TFC, but they're also a factor. Travelling close together however, makes you vulnerable to ranged attacks and especially potion flinging. Having high ground is useful as travelling upwards is quite obnoxious and you have an easy time getting cover, but you're also easily seen - one option might be to dig out a hill a bit to have a hole to hide and use 3rd person mode to see the enemy.

If it's possible, getting a few snow golems ready is fantastic for stunlocking opponents. If inside, setting up cave-ins can be wonderful, at least in vanilla and I see no reason why it would work worse here. It can both slow down and hurt the enemy, and as soon as you see them start getting out you're ready with arrows.

On ranged combat:

Ganging up is basically mandatory due to the high hit points. Everyone should carry a ranged weapon, preferably a bow - the javelins do lousy damage and are very cumbersome. Spreading out is important, it makes it both much more difficult for the opponents to hit you and makes it harder for them to build shelters since the attacks come from different directions. With the decent knockback (if we get enchanting, knockback is going to be awesome) they might even get pushed out of cover. Likewise, when you're under ranged attack, it's important to quickly put up cover or respond with your own ranged attacks. Cobblestone is non-flammable and that's nice, but takes more time than wood since it falls down. Better stone is of course preferable. Personally, I have a hard time hitting the right people if they're in melee, especially with as slow-moving missiles as minecraft arrows, so charging the closest archer can probably be an alternative if they're close - probably they'll just run though, which makes it quite useless.

On melee combat:

Again, ganging up is useful, but here it's harder as you have to surround the opponent. Keeping a tight line makes that harder for the opponent, so that's what I would recommend. Splash potions, if available, are awesome at tight formations, as can something as simple as flint and steel be (if available in TFC?).

Now, a while into combat everything will be chaos and there'll be random blocks and random fire everywhere and coordinated tactics won't work as well, but by then, most combats will have been decided already and it's mostly "mopping up" left.