the scaleing bar (safety tool while mining)

[Deathbytac0 46]

Well son of a gun, apparently they aren't exactly the same, after doing a wee bit of research, but GENERALLY they are one and the same, especially when working metals, with tempering and whatnot.

As in usually, when adding more carbon to iron, you're making it more rigid (harder) but also more frangible.

[antimattergizmo 41]

On topic I think there would be a slight chance to cause a collapse when testing for one, in complete TFC butt-clench style

[Jed1314 420]

-snip-

Basically, harder things tend to be more brittle because of their inability to deform elastically.

Or, in laymans terms, because they can't bend they tend be be more brittle.

That is why copper will bend whereas cast iron will shatter/snap.

They aren't the same thing, but you would be hard pressed to find a situation where a material is both more hard and less brittle than another. (I can't think of one, and I am doing a degree which deals specifically with material properties for manufacture)

[Deathbytac0 46]

Basically, harder things tend to be more brittle because of their inability to deform elastically.

Or, in laymans terms, because they can't bend they tend be be more brittle.

That is why copper will bend whereas cast iron will shatter/snap.

They aren't the same thing, but you would be hard pressed to find a situation where a material is both more hard and less brittle than another. (I can't think of one, and I am doing a degree which deals specifically with material properties for manufacture)

Aren't most igneous extrusive rocks like that compared to igneous intrusive. Intrusive are basically volcanic rocks, chunky like sedimentary, but compressed more like metamorphic from getting mixed up. Metamorphic are very brittle. Igneous extrusive rocks like basalt and obsidian are formed rapidly with little to no air bubbles. Since they aren't compressed and they are one solid color/rock, they come out just as hard or harder, but much less brittle.

On topic I think there would be a slight chance to cause a collapse when testing for one, in complete TFC butt-clench style

I have though all along this would trigger cave ins in front of you so you didn't fall in them. I would like to see some of the walls slide down 1-5 blocks diagonally if you were standing on the edge of the cave in, it's not like the caverns are that big. Anyway, 100% trigger or a simple safety search, I still like it a lot.

[Jed1314 420]

Aren't most igneous extrusive rocks like that compared to igneous intrusive. Intrusive are basically volcanic rocks, chunky like sedimentary, but compressed more like metamorphic from getting mixed up. Metamorphic are very brittle. Igneous extrusive rocks like basalt and obsidian are formed rapidly with little to no air bubbles. Since they aren't compressed and they are one solid color/rock, they come out just as hard or harder, but much less brittle.

I have no idea. I know next to nothing about geology or the material properties of those rocks, seeing as none of them are used in manufacture for their structural integrity. What I will say is that "much less brittle" is really a relative concept for rocks. You may well be right, but I have no way of knowing either way

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

actually, hardness and brittleness are often inversely related. Diamond is very hard and yet can be shattered with a steel hammer. Geologists will know that hardness is tested by scraping two materials against eachother. The harder one will scratch the softer one. In this case, it's not brittleness that causes the cave-ins, it's because sedimentary rocks aren't true rocks; they're only small bits of sand and dirt (sediment) pressed together. There is no cohesiveness, whereas metamorphic and to a higher degree igneous rocks are actually attached together chemically.

[Scooterdanny 285]

i never knew sediment, and sedimentary were the same... thanks dunk. But that actually explains a lot lol.

[Deathbytac0 46]

actually, hardness and brittleness are often inversely related. Diamond is very hard and yet can be shattered with a steel hammer. Geologists will know that hardness is tested by scraping two materials against eachother. The harder one will scratch the softer one. In this case, it's not brittleness that causes the cave-ins, it's because sedimentary rocks aren't true rocks; they're only small bits of sand and dirt (sediment) pressed together. There is no cohesiveness, whereas metamorphic and to a higher degree igneous rocks are actually attached together chemically.

I mentioned brittleness because it's the ability to hold under stress, and I imagine a cave is under stress. The reason sedimentary rocks don't hold up is because the compacted sediments in between don't hold the stress of the cave very well. I guess what I was looking for wouldn't exactly be brittleness because you can smash most things with a hammer , but that won't simulate a cave.

Most of you really need to look up the rock cycle though. Scooter, isn't that a given? lol

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

I mentioned brittleness because it's the ability to hold under stress, and I imagine a cave is under stress. The reason sedimentary rocks don't hold up is because the compacted sediments in between don't hold the stress of the cave very well. I guess what I was looking for wouldn't exactly be brittleness because you can smash most things with a hammer , but that won't simulate a cave.

If you had a tree trunk made of diamond and one made of wood, smashing a hammer into both would only put cracks in the diamond one.

Besides... aren't you like 14? How do you know so much about geology?

[Scooterdanny 285]

Because he is a cucumber llama?

[Deathbytac0 46]

If you had a tree trunk made of diamond and one made of wood, smashing a hammer into both would only put cracks in the diamond one.

Besides... aren't you like 14? How do you know so much about geology?

I'm almost 16 and I used to love geology and I do have internet .

Because he is a cucumber llama?

Yeah... that's a irl pic.

[Jed1314 420]

I'm almost 16 and I used to love geology and I do have internet .

You made a dire mistake of revealing your age to the internet. I don't judge you for it because I was once in your position. Others will though. Next time you join a forum, lie or don't tell them. You aren't stupid and your opinions are usually quite interesting, but just by the merit of being just under 4 years younger than me, some people will totally ignore you.

Hell, I'd left school and had been accepted into uni when I was still 16, you're not that far off of being a "real adult"

[Deathbytac0 46]

You made a dire mistake of revealing your age to the internet. I don't judge you for it because I was once in your position. Others will though. Next time you join a forum, lie or don't tell them. You aren't stupid and your opinions are usually quite interesting, but just by the merit of being just under 4 years younger than me, some people will totally ignore you.

Hell, I'd left school and had been accepted into uni when I was still 16, you're not that far off of being a "real adult"

I did a while back, luckly this forum isn't filled with assholes. I'm not worried at the moment.

[Jed1314 420]

I did a while back, luckly this forum isn't filled with assholes. I'm not worried at the moment.

I know you revealed it a while back

You are indeed fortunate that the vast majority of this forums users won't ignore you for something as meaningless as age. If they ever do, I will chew them up. I spent a lot of my time only a couple of years ago banging my head against the wall because I was extremely mature, but nobody was willing to give me the time of day if they found out my age. I know it's infuriating.

[Scooterdanny 285]

Yeah... that's a irl pic.

well i mean,

About Me

I am a happy green cucumber llama! I like to prance places!

Also, age shouldn't be a factor, (to an extent) i don't mind

Edited 15 Aug 2012 by Scooterdanny

[Arthur_Dent 36]

Baaaaaaaaack on topic...

I like this idea, but when I read the OP, the vibe I got from it was that the bar was used to detect the possibility of cave-ins, not trigger them (if that's not it, then I must be blind ). I think a neat compromise to triggering a cave-in would be a message given, like, "the rocks look stable" or "the rocks are very loose". Or variations there of (sort of like the messages with the propick). With maybe a small percetage of triggering a cave-in, due to the bar updating the block's info (I'm not too sure how they are caused, but I observed dirt not falling into water until I walked on it or picked up rocks of it).

Just a thought, cause this would be a very useful tool when you are delving deep into the earth in search of ores.

[Deathbytac0 46]

I know you revealed it a while back

You are indeed fortunate that the vast majority of this forums users won't ignore you for something as meaningless as age. If they ever do, I will chew them up. I spent a lot of my time only a couple of years ago banging my head against the wall because I was extremely mature, but nobody was willing to give me the time of day if they found out my age. I know it's infuriating.

Thanks!

well i mean,

About Me

I am a happy green cucumber llama! I like to prance places!

Also, age shouldn't be a factor, (to an extent) i don't mind

I didn't know what to put, so I inserted the rest of the meme into my info.

I have noticed you haven't minded (<-- what the sounds so wrong here).

Baaaaaaaaack on topic...

I like this idea, but when I read the OP, the vibe I got from it was that the bar was used to detect the possibility of cave-ins, not trigger them (if that's not it, then I must be blind ). I think a neat compromise to triggering a cave-in would be a message given, like, "the rocks look stable" or "the rocks are very loose". Or variations there of (sort of like the messages with the propick). With maybe a small percetage of triggering a cave-in, due to the bar updating the block's info (I'm not too sure how they are caused, but I observed dirt not falling into water until I walked on it or picked up rocks of it).

Just a thought, cause this would be a very useful tool when you are delving deep into the earth in search of ores.

That bit about geology was productive, don't worry the rest is sorted out. Cave ins are caused by an update or pressure. It's just like vanilla sand except they added the part where they fall when jumped on.

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

Well, in the OP he described he used it to remove loose rocks at a safe distance, or something like that...? -lazy and busy to look it again, wtf-

So, what if that entire tiny loose rock was the only thing holding the cave's roof?(?)

[antimattergizmo 41]

Well, in the OP he described he used it to remove loose rocks at a safe distance, or something like that...? -lazy and busy to look it again, wtf-

So, what if that entire tiny loose rock was the only thing holding the cave's roof?(?)

that's where the chance of total collapse comes with using it. Don't break off too much of the wall without being sure it's safe or face hindrance from help

[Arthur_Dent 36]

I still think one of the best ways to add this would be messages similar to the propick, along with the false negatives. It seems like that would hold true to the spirit of the tool, if not the function. A reasonable compromise, if you will.

One question I have, though, is that if the tool removes a loose rock, would that have a chance to strengthen the surrounding rocks (decrease the chance of cave ins, or weaken the surrounding rocks (increase the chance)

(if you can't understand what I was trying to say, I'm sorry. I don't know how I could have phrased it better)

[abandoned mines 119]

I still think one of the best ways to add this would be messages similar to the propick, along with the false negatives. It seems like that would hold true to the spirit of the tool, if not the function. A reasonable compromise, if you will.

One question I have, though, is that if the tool removes a loose rock, would that have a chance to strengthen the surrounding rocks (decrease the chance of cave ins, or weaken the surrounding rocks (increase the chance)

(if you can't understand what I was trying to say, I'm sorry. I don't know how I could have phrased it better)

the use of a scaling bar is to remove the weak and fractured rock left from tunnel construction in mines and underground spaces. the tool doesn't directly strengthen the surrounding rock, it could be coded to tell you that an area was unsupported and than you would use the bar to break away the desired rock, causing the small localized cave in but not the full cave in of your entire tunnel system.

[Arthur_Dent 36]

the use of a scaling bar is to remove the weak and fractured rock left from tunnel construction in mines and underground spaces. the tool doesn't directly strengthen the surrounding rock, it could be coded to tell you that an area was unsupported and than you would use the bar to break away the desired rock, causing the small localized cave in but not the full cave in of your entire tunnel system.

That is a nifty tool. But I must be stubborn, cause the easiest way I see this being implemented is like a propick, giving messages on cave strength instead of ore concentration...

That just sparked an idea... one function (the stability read out) could be mapped to a mouse key, and the remove block mapped to another... just an Idea

[abandoned mines 119]

That is a nifty tool. But I must be stubborn, cause the easiest way I see this being implemented is like a propick, giving messages on cave strength instead of ore concentration...

That just sparked an idea... one function (the stability read out) could be mapped to a mouse key, and the remove block mapped to another... just an Idea

sounds like a plan to me

the above thread was just to clarify what the tool actually is used for in the real world

[Arthur_Dent 36]

sounds like a plan to me

the above thread was just to clarify what the tool actually is used for in the real world

Another thought strikes me and I can"t believe no one asked it before. You said something about "remove rocks at a safe distance". Steve's reach (the default char's name) is 8 blocks or so, if I'm remembering correctly. What is the distance that the actuall, RL tool works at? Cause 8m or so sure as Hell isn't "safe" when messing around with cave-ins

[abandoned mines 119]

Another thought strikes me and I can"t believe no one asked it before. You said something about "remove rocks at a safe distance". Steve's reach (the default char's name) is 8 blocks or so, if I'm remembering correctly. What is the distance that the actuall, RL tool works at? Cause 8m or so sure as Hell isn't "safe" when messing around with cave-ins

well in real life while in my own addit i use a scaling bar at a fairly close range due to the cramped conditions

the TFcraft scaling bar could set off the small cave in in front of you (the area where the rock is falling) but it would not cause a cave in behind you

say you are standing in your standard 3x3 tunnel and the unstable area is 5 blocks away on the sealing

the scaling bar would than (if there are no supports below or near) set off a section of rock, perhaps 2x3

now that section is safe to enter as you have removed the unstable materials