Cartography

[ECC 508]

Cartography, as defined by wikipedia:

'Cartography is the study and practice of making maps. Combining science, aesthetics, and technique, cartography builds on the premise that reality can be modeled in ways that communicate spatial information effectively.'

So in light of giving this its own thread, and a solid proposal of how to make this a challenge while being fun and even useful, I present Terracraftian Map making. For arguments sake, I only mention landscape cartography in this thread.

In the real world, before the age of computers, and even before the industrial revolution, cartography was a High risk job full of.. Well, paperwork. People, usually those with a knack for remembering things, would go out into the world and would draw the landscape, with great care for detail. They traveled the seas, the lands, and the dark reaches of the forests and jungles. The lifestyle was somewhat akin to an adventurer, though that analogy might just be me trying to sell this idea to you all.

So heres what I actually propose. Users who wish to map will carry paper, ink, and a quill(feather). While standing anywhere on the surface(exposed to the sky), crafting with those three items records a small map 'segment.' A segment consists of only the chunk you are sitting in and the directly adjacent 8 other chunks. The recorded chunks are a 1 pixel to 1 block scale and are the most accurate you may get. The only real difference between this map and its vanilla counterpart is it is a static map. It will never show a live update and will never display player locations. In effect, it stays the same unless you, the user manually change it, a matter I will discuss later. Segments of a map can be combined, however the recipe is very exacting, and once done can not be changed. Using whatever crafting grid available, users place a series of printed segments into the grid. Based on what is contained on each segment, the information will be transferred to the larger product exactly as it was in the grid. So, you could effectively take a north segment and place it directly under a south segment. When segments are combined they are relabeled as 'maps'. Maps can be further combined to expand indefinitely. In order to incorporate this massive amount of detail and expandability, a new GUI will be needed. This gui will feature a scrolling option as well as the display.

manually changing a map is possible, and can be done if the user places a printed segment into a grafting grid with a feather and ink. This opens a GUI that allows a user to draw over the map. This allows users to define certain elements, from writing in the name of a place to marking where you left your treasure. Ink colour is defined by ink used. Yes, I am aware this allows people to 'paint' in game. I think thats a rather nice and balanced extra, dont you?

My own concerns:

Lag created by server size maps - How to reduce lag when looking at a map that is 10000 blocks round. Is there lag even for that?

Skill argument - No real skill other then not dying and having a large supply of papyrus and ink. User ability defines this mod, and the task behind this is 'So easy a cave man can do it'

Cost - Its relatively cheep and does not require metals or minerals. Personally, I think it fits better like this, but I've seen the argument for cost in other related threads.

notes:

The feather is given back(similar to buckets in some mods)

No fancy work should be necessary for this. Its hard enough to go out and map all you can see. the world presents danger.

Users can in fact make paintings with this.

As per usual, I've hit a deadblock in coming up with an idea. Thread is unfinished.. Talk it out, might allow me to bounce around a few things.

Conversation on this before this thread was made:

You know, an idea has jumped in my mind while i readed through all this. This is the starting idea: the cartography table is not the map, but instead, it will pop up a map item everytime you right click it and enought pixels where drawn in it. Let me explain a little better:

You went exploring all the landscape around your house, and then got back to your room, to your cartography table. You right click, and a map item pops up, roughly showing a view from the top of the area you just explored. Later, travelled in a single direction for around a day, and got back to drawn in your map what you have made. This time, two maps pop out, both of them showing correspondant halves of the all the way you just did in that one direction. Even later, you explored further more the area that appears in the first map, and then right click in the cartography table. Now, instead of it making a new map, if you have the first map on you, it fills up the unexplored areas in the first map. As a final example, let's say you explored just a bit. This time, it won't pop up any map. The next day, you explore the same area further more, and when you right click the table, voila! a new map pops up, containing both what you explored the previous day and what you did this day.

How this works, then? Basically, when you get back to the cartography table and right click, it will take a look at the blocks you travelled from it since the last time you right clicked it; then, it will try to draw that, at the same blocks to pixel ratio vanilla maps have. If the map is not big enough for holding the whole image, then it will inmediatly pop up and the cartography table will try to make a second one, containing what lacks in the first map. This will continue if needed until all the area explored is drawn, or until all the ink gets used up -more on this later-. Now, for the map to be made, there is a minimun number of pixels that have to be filled up, so you aren't map-spammed to bad by this table. If a map is not made when you right click the table, it won't count it as if you right clicked it. It won't be storing the info about this map, instead, it will act as if you never tried to make it, until you explore enough of the area for it to make the map. The table will always take itself as the center of the map, instead of the player, unless it's filling up a continuation of a previous map. You won't be able to make a map of a area too far from where you are, unless you take your table with you or you have made maps "connecting" to that area. This will help to represent the fact that you have a limited memory (i mean, you can remember and draw an area you just was in, but not an area that was miles ago from where you are.). Finally, if you already have a map of said area, do you need to make a second one? Yes, if you don't have the first one. The table will check if you have any map on your inventory, and if you do, it will check if the area you explored is part of that map/s. If the area do correspond, then it will fill up those maps, and anything that doesn't belong there will be placed a brand new map. Along with placeable maps, all this will allow to create bigger maps simply by placing continuous map next to each other in a table or wall of your choice.

Now, about the inks thing, you think you can simply place a table and get infinite maps? No. You will have to place papers and inks in there, otherwise it won't work. The table, when you right click, will also check if there is paper in it; if there is, it will check if you have which dyes it has, and will limit the map's colours to those it has in it. give it only markings, and it will make a black and white maps; give it blue and green, and the earth and water will be discernible; give it even more colours, and it will have even more detail. The table will check the blocks you "explored" and decide which colour correspond to it; if the table lacks of this colour, it simply won't appear, leaving a blank -that's why a map with marking only can make a black and white map-. Also, every x pixels the table makes of a single colour, an item from the stack will be retrieved -at a 1-16 ratio, a single marking will be used every 16 black pixels, for example-.

Finally, for the sake of avoid adding a new block, we could simply add all this as a second mode the scribing table can be used in: when you right click, the plans making tab will appear first, in the top right of the GUI you have the "cartography" tab, which is where you can place the different inks and the paper, and by simply clicking a button on that second tab, you will get your map.

And if you think you can't obtain all the dyes you would need in TFC, let's also add more flowers to the game, both for aesthetics -aren't you tired of looking at a ton of yellow and red flowers?- and for this dyes we are lacking of.

That's it. It's not a perfect idea, but it's what i had in mind. I think it has some problems, something is just not right about it... but i can't tell :\ i think you guys will be able to tell me... right?

EDIT: holy moly, i just made a wall of text D: now i hate a post i made myself!

It seems pretty good as well... i'm not sure that to combine two walls of text in a single one is a good idea but oh well, it deserves it. Let me see...

Firstly, while keeping the map making feature i suggested for the scribing table, i like the idea of being able to make maps just with paper and ink, as it is a little more accurate historically. To keep them both in place, let's balance it with an issue drawing in the wilderness does have: Unless you are just awesome, you will find it really difficult to draw anything in a paper without any plain support for it, even harder to write any names. As well, it would be pretty difficult to change from a first ink color to a second one, or even to carry them all. So, maps made in the wilderness, both crafted there and edited there, can be more accurate to maps made in the scribing table, as you are drawing your direct sorroundings; but it will easily lead to mistakes you can't erase easily, and can annoy you from an aesthetic and functionality perspective (let's say you used bone meal to cover something you made by mistake. Now you have a white line in the middle of your map, very notorious, and which could even lead to confusion whenever you are using it). Instead, while drawing in the scribing table, you have all the elements properly prepared for the task and a proper working area, so it can make better looking maps. But this maps can be pretty inaccurate, because they depend on your memory to be exact, and human memory has limitations. That way, we can erase from my suggestion the section about not being able to make maps that are too far from known areas, as it was intended to represent what now will directly interact with the game: your limited memory. And we will avoid some inmersive problems because of it being Steve memory instead of yours the one which matters...

I don't think you can make an item look as big as maps could get with your suggestion, that's why i asked for the addition of placeable maps -And i suppose, also the reason why you suggest a GUI-. It sounds good, but how about if it was tiered as well -only that this has 2 tiers instead of 8-. How? By adding a hand lens. At tier 0 (no instruments), you can zoom in or out in the GUI, but the portion of the map you can see, as well as the detail and zooming capability are limited. The hand lens is the solution to all this problems, but you need both bronze and glass for making them.

Now, for the skill section... How about, leave automatization completely out of the thread? Your ability drawing will then become really important, as well as your ability noticing important details in your sorroundings that let you recognize tat area in a map, and as well as your general memory if you are writing it in your scribing table.

The mods thing... do we really need to worry about what other modders do to their mods? people is free to play with a minecraft jar as modded as they wish to. People who like Rei's minimap will lose the need for this feature and instead will be able to use it just for art. People who don't, will have this feature completely available and will be able to use it in the way they wish to. It's not really fixing what's not broken, but instead, adding something that could or couldn't be already there, depending on the user.

And... i think that's all i have to say ._. i will take another look at it later, i think i'm missing something.

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

This has my +1. I wonder why...

[ECC 508]

hate to bump like this, but anyone got any input? Seriously, I would enjoy getting the recipe down to an exact, all its functions down, etc.

[Gekkey Mathews 33]

It's all addendums. I can't figure out what the idea really is.

You fixed it.

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

Is an idea to reintroducing maps into the game, only in a much believable and gameplay friendly way than vanilla maps where. At least, i understand it like that ._.

To start some debate... should it be an automatic process (like the one i suggested firstly) or player skills-based task (drawing the map yourself)?

Opposed to what you may think, i honestly prefer the skill based task. As many other things in the game, cartography -if ever implemented- should point to be something that can be mastered, but not everyone will master. Some players will make better maps than other due to their natural knowledges and habilities in noticing, remembering and drawing their sorroundings, wherever this only applies to in-game abilities or real life abilities. This will lead to the creation to yet another profesion, which will help with the economy section of the mod -certain areas will have better cartographers than others do, and due to this their maps will be more requested-. The ability to drawing, also, will allow artists to make pixel art in a single item, and hang their piece of art around in their homes. Artists could became yet another profesion, which demand comes mostly from the richest people who can afford their artworks. But further more, it will allow players for even more variety in the construction of their homes, 'cause they don't only now can choose wherever to use stone or not and which one, wherever to use logs or not and which one, wherever to use planks or not and which one... But also, will now be able to decorate the finished house further more by placing home-made or bought pictures around in their walls, in a desk, or where they find it useful.

TL;DR: It should be manual because:

1) It will contribute to the economy side of the kingdoms update, by creating two professions -that i can think of, i think someone will easily find more things that could be done with it.-

2) Will allow the players to personalize further more their worlds -in SSP- or homes -in SMP-.

[Gekkey Mathews 33]

I get that it's about remaking cartography. But what I don't get is what the actual suggestion is. Or is this just a general discussion of how to remake map-making?

[ECC 508]

There is no suggestion, this is a discussion to /Make/ the suggestion.

as far as suggestion topics go, this is a unusual case that works in reverse of others. By the end of this topic I hope we can solidify exactly what we want so we can be happy. Also, for the record:

I think that automation should be there, but in the limited chunks. That way, its not some massive process that would turn users away. the fact you can manually edit each part should allow the customization anyhow.

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

... Then, this thread shouldn't be in the discussion forum until we get out with a solid suggestion to come here and post? You know, for keeping the order in the forums...

To continue on topic... The manually editing option would allow you to edit areas that are already drawn in the map as well, or i just guessed right when i thought it wouldn't? ._. Anyhow, personally i think vanilla maps could be a lot better if they had the ability to change the size of certain important features of the territory they represent, so it's easier to recognise the general areas by remembering those particular features found there. This would help you to find yourself in the map, even though the actual arrow representing you in the map does it pretty well

So, maybe automatic maps would be cheaper than man-made/edited maps, 'cause they just show a general area with little to no detail, so it's hard to know what is there or, when you are there, what's your general position. Instead, man-made/edited maps would be expensive because the original makers would marked the important things that you can use to know what's your position, and also, the makers could write down the resources in the mapped area and their localization.

[ECC 508]

Nah, cause I 'clearly' posted an OP. Just was too lazy to organize anything... hehehe. Should I?

the big issue with manual work is as the user. No one is going to spend that much time on it unless they are diehards. People only work with smithing as it is a necessity(go ahead, argue this), why do we want to do that with an item people ALREADY dont ever use? Bad enough we propose to change it to make it fit with tfc ;P

What I propose only automates exactly 9 chunks of data. Usrs can THEN mark X's and Stars for cities and treasures if need be. Or just paint everything for a pretty picture. whatever works. heh

oh

Edit - I have no idea how 'Oh' appeared in this post...

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

I personally don't mind the organization of the OP, 'cause i kind of get what you are talking about there. Now, someone else probably can't take a look at that and get what we are talking about, mostly because they are 3 quoted walls of text. So... yeah, you should try and organize that ._.

I won't discuss that smithing is only done for necesity, right now. It could, however, later become a paid job -when money gets in the scene-, which will convert it to a way to keep you alive doing only what you are best at. In the same way, both artists and cartographers would appear because there will always be people wishing to bragg something other people don't have, and that way it would become a necesity for the players who choose this jobs to keep working as well as possible for living out of their job. The artist and cartographer job are just profession i think could born in the mod, when the kingdoms update comes out, IF players are given some way to perform this jobs.

So, in fact, some guys WILL spend as much as they can for this kind of stuff, mostly because they live from doing it. -in game-

I'm ok with some grade of automation, as long as the players have the possibility to work the images by themselves. It's potential just can't be ignored.

Oh, and by the way... The "oh" wanted to be in a post so bad he just jumped right in when you gave him a chance. Don't blame him, how many times anyone uses "oh" in any post here?

EDIT: Where do you find all those images, Eternal?

[bsb23 303]

Against automation my general rule is anything physical occurs in-game, anything mental occurs out of game. What I wouldn't mind would be a way to draw a line that follows your path for whatever scale just for outlining of coasts which is harder than it sounds. Also some different utensils would be nice the more advanced they are the more advanced they are.

[Jasnatdic 85]

I have mixed feelings about the op.

Firstly, isn't 1.4 suppose to basically already do what the op asks? Walk around and make several maps that can then be joined on a snap to grid?

Secondly, I have seen several references to the general goal of tfc from a player/character standpoint to be to immerse the player to a point that he is no longer playing as steve but is steve. Automatic map crafting in the manner suggesting doesn't really do that to me, its basically saying yo give steve some paper and ink and a pen and he draws the map.

My view on this suggestion would actually tie into the description of the op. The art of cartogrophy is the actual makeing of the maps. How about if it actually was that, you draw the map, similar to a generic paint program. Except no undo, no rainbow of colors, just a nice offwhite paper canvas and a dark brown or black ink/pigment. And you actually have to come up with ways to express and represent the world around you on paper. Then you can hang it on a wall or something. Maybe even scribe a simple map on signs to express the path ahead.

Edit: oops I think I might have just basically said what JAG said up thar.^

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

I have mixed feelings about the op.

Firstly, isn't 1.4 suppose to basically already do what the op asks? Walk around and make several maps that can then be joined on a snap to grid?

Secondly, I have seen several references to the general goal of tfc from a player/character standpoint to be to immerse the player to a point that he is no longer playing as steve but is steve. Automatic map crafting in the manner suggesting doesn't really do that to me, its basically saying yo give steve some paper and ink and a pen and he draws the map.

My view on this suggestion would actually tie into the description of the op. The art of cartogrophy is the actual makeing of the maps. How about if it actually was that, you draw the map, similar to a generic paint program. Except no undo, no rainbow of colors, just a nice offwhite paper canvas and a dark brown or black ink/pigment. And you actually have to come up with ways to express and represent the world around you on paper. Then you can hang it on a wall or something. Maybe even scribe a simple map on signs to express the path ahead.

Edit: oops I think I might have just basically said what JAG said up thar.^

Yes you did : though i didn't knew about that thing of the 1.4 update... all i heard was "Modding API" and everything else was meaningless.

Just a correction: with the addition of new natural dyes -or even without it-, maps won't need to be just black and white.

[Srgnoodles 1,030]

wall of text too stronk!

[ECC 508]

1.4 is just realigning the maps and making them clearer(and thus covering a smaller space) while supporting a copy map addition. It has nothing to do with taking visual notes on your geography and combining them into a large continuous work or the action of editing and marking said notes to incorporate/highlight features.

The OP has the player record a 1:16 ratio of 48x48 blocks(9 chunks.) On tiny render distance the player can easily see that far. Automating that helps. Anything less and... Well, frankly I feel issues could come from that.

[Jasnatdic 85]

1.4 is just realigning the maps and making them clearer(and thus covering a smaller space) while supporting a copy map addition. It has nothing to do with taking visual notes on your geography and combining them into a large continuous work or the action of editing and marking said notes to incorporate/highlight features.

The OP has the player record a 1:16 ratio of 48x48 blocks(9 chunks.) On tiny render distance the player can easily see that far. Automating that helps. Anything less and... Well, frankly I feel issues could come from that.

1.4 is adding maps that can be joined together for a larger map, it also is almost exactly as you described, you put in items and you pull out map. In the end 1.4 isnt released yet and what is acctually going to be included is speculation, but it is heavily speculated that maps will be join-able by grid on the wall. The problem with your suggestion isn't the notes on the geography its the automation, there is no point to designing a system almost identical to the SPECULATED map changes in 1.4 that basically just adds notes to the maps.

You feel the automation is a necessity, the point that JAG and i were trying to make is the automation takes from immersion and would rather see map making be an actual art that takes care and skill to do. Otherwise best to wait and see what the 1.4 maps actually will entail and go from there.

At this point anyways any suggestions unless Bioxx just falls in love with them are probably at least a month or more out from making the mod anyways.

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

I actually don't remember any of the suggestions in this forums to be implemented in game ._. now, that's probably because i'm relatively new to the forums -as in, i wasn't here from the beginning-...*

What i could accept as automation -or at least in the way ECC described it-, would be the map to get some things vaguely outlined in black ink, as in, the water and land are separated, the trees and land as well, some trees look different from others, and so on. The player can just keep this fastly made map, or work on it to make it better. It would still take something from immersion, but it's not even near to a deadly hit to this aspect of the game, as you could easily make those lines by yourself almost as fast as it takes you to craft the map -or at least i could-.

EDIT: not saying you devs don't listen to the community, i just can't remember anything you have conceded to the community .-.

[ECC 508]

1.4 is adding maps that can be lined up on a wall together, not a map item you can craft together to get the larger product. What I keep saying is to add the major debuff of only defined regions being mapped and requiring massive amounts of time and paperwork(literally) to get anything near what 1.4 has displayed based on what I have seen in snapshots. Considering that nothing new is /supposed/ to be added until the October release(I believe dinnerbone has discussed this several times via twitter), 1.4 snapshots are nearly the final product, aside from obvious bug fixes and minor gameplay tweaks. 1.5 is when new materials will be considered.

though sleeping on it(literally...Fell asleep with laptop on me.) And you all talking about what would be defined in black lines.. that I actually like.

I guess I'll concede on that... soo... Considering we are defining a 1:16 ratio of the land, at a 9 chunks per 'note' what do we define?

The trouble is, do we define the land and water be an outline of the mass? or do we call all water 'black' and land 'uncoloured'(or vice-versa). There could be a few issues with outlining masses as opposed to direct definition.

considering we are doing monochrome, how do we define other features, such as man made structures and flora, something that even the most unskilled cartographer would undoubtedly add without second thought. Are man made structures added in as simple black boxes? is flora done the same? Reverse if of course land is entirely defined as black.

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

.... what?

You or i have misunderstood this, not sure which one.

I personally never said i wanted monochrome maps... What i said is that the generated first map you suggested only uses black ink, but the colors can be added through editing the map later. Whatever, now actually answering you, it would just outline water, earth and plants roughly, not filling any shape with black except those that are actually black -as an uncovered area of rock which happens to be made of basalt-. It's just so you have a guideline for the first few bits of the map, and the rest remains unfilled.

Black lines just define general shapes, they generally do not represent anything in the map but that.

[ECC 508]

they can be added, but the initial product is monochrome.(black ink, white background.)

Editing the map with colour still stands.

yes, misunderstanding on your part. was agreeing. And btw, you DID say monochrome, though used different words. Heh

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

Did i? men, i don't even know what i'm saying sometimes ._.

[ECC 508]

Monchrome, or 'One colour'

while the 'true' definition of this is physically impossible, the initial sketch is depicted in only black and white. It can be edited later, but initial is what it is.

[lorbog 52]

Hope this gets added so I can make cryptic treasure maps and distribute them throughout the land.

[ECC 508]

exactly what i had in mind when I came up with this. Exactly