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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
Miner239

Clothing

64 posts in this topic

I agree that I do not want the clothing to be tiered...just thought it might have to be. I would much rather it be a choice depending on the climate you live in or travel to. I also agree that it would make sense to:

 

1. Have the clothing separate from armor and not count toward armor.

2. Be allowed to wear it under chain or or a fur cape over other armor.

3. Make armor affect your temperature as well.

 

Great ideas everyone :)

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I like the idea, maybe tie in the bark idea with leathermaking and tannin.

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We have two different but related set of ideas here. We'll assume that temperature and humidity is the same as it was in TFC 1 since I'm pretty sure that Bioxx uses/is going to use similar mechanics for TFC 2. Lets say we expand on that concept and have it influence the player. Another bar needs to be added, with blue at one end and red at the other and two lines in the middle of the bar and a third line that moves. We'll say the goal is to keep the moving line within the two lines or you get debilitating effects. The further from the center the more your thirst increases. Outside the bar on the top and and your view starts bobbing(drowsiness) followed by slowing, and finally start taking true damage. Outside the bar on the bottom and your view starts shaking(shivering) followed by slowing, and finally start taking true damage. You have additions per ticks and subtractions per tick. Something like +5 body heat, +4 clothing, +2 moving, -7 environment, -6 water which would means you'd be slowly losing heat and the bar would be going down (numbers are for demonstration). 

The further away from the equator you go the colder it gets, the closer the warmer. The higher you go the colder, the deeper the warmer. Yes I know that it doesn't start getting warm till really deep but I'm simplifying it. We'll say rain, snow, and swimming all decrease your temperature. Fire, lava, fireplace, forge, and moving all add heat. The temperature outside adds or subtracts based on temp. Clothing can add or subtract based on what slot it is in. We'll assume it takes up the same slot as your armor.

"But I want to wear Fur on the outside of my armor! ", says Someone.

Then make fur lined armor or something of the like. Additional armor slots are a pain to deal with, and everyone loves more customizable armor. Things like heating a room or certain materials retaining heat will not be done as that is just a heavier load on the server and the addition of a heat mechanic already adds an extra burden.

Clothing can be made of different materials such as different types of skins, furs, leathers, wool's, scales, bones, feathers, silks, and plant fibers. Different materials have different duration's and can be crafted with different types of armor. This helps with managing what can go with what code wise. If you make a silk shirt it can't go into armor but you can craft armor and silk fabric together for silk inlaid armor. Once crafted together you can't reclaim the fabric back though you may be able to recover a certain percentage of the metal back. This also helps code wise so you don't have to worry about different durabilities. This means a little less work for the miners but more work for the fabric makers, but fabric is more renewable so it balances out. 

Metal armor would have the interesting effect of scaling the sum of all temperatures. So if you wore plate armor which doubles the sum, then in the first example instead of losing heat at -2 you'd be losing -4 heat per tick assuming the armor was inlaid with the same fabric the clothing was made out of. 

((Temperature additions) - (Temperature subtractions)) * (armor multiplier) = (heat change amount)

for each update.

Edited by Stroam
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I would not necessarily assume temperature will be the same.  In TFC1 it scales in a linear fashion from equator.  But TFC2 is confirmed to have climatic regions for each island (tropical, sub-tropical, temperate, sub-arctic, arctic).  I am guessing that a given island will have a uniform temperature (at sea level).  Bioxx also said once he even intends for different islands to experience their own weather, so the whole world won't necessarily be raining at once.  One of the benefits of this system of uniform island climate is having no more acacia forest lines at a certain Y coord. 

Regarding fur-lined armor, that may make for a simpler interface, but more customize-able means more item ids (assuming it can't be done with metadata) and graphics (unless the look does not change) .  Every modification will double the number of item ids required, and that's assuming you can only make 1 modification to a piece of armor.  From the player standpoint, the player will have more control if the items are separate.  That steel armor took a lot of time to make.  Rather than force the player to make a second fur-lined suit of armor for the winter, why not simply allow them to put on warm clothes as well, and use the same set of armor?  It might also be an option to allow the fur to be removed, though it would either need to have no durability, or code would have to track the durability for both fur and armor, on the fur-armor item, so that when they're separated the fur gets it's own durability. 

The math I might have to comment on later.  But in short, I'm not sure I'd agree with armor multiplying cold.  I'd probably argue that worn items should only add heat.

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Any changes to ambient temperature doesn't actually change the setup that much as this system can be highly uncoupled.

There is no need to increase the number of ID's. Just add an int to the armor called heat value. No need to keep track of the fabric used if you don't get it back. Being able to change the fabric in the armor by re-crafting it with the new material I could see but I wouldn't allow them to get the previous fabric back. It's so much easier code wise to do it this way from my limited experience though that is no reflection on the collaborators for TFC 2.

I would go with an item rename rather than a visual change for inlaid armor. 

Metal piercings get really cold in winter and they are as close as they can get to the body. I assume armor is similar or worse.

Edited by Stroam
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5 hours ago, Stroam said:

Metal piercings get really cold in winter and they are as close as they can get to the body. I assume armor is similar or worse.

There is a large difference between metal touching (much less piercing) the skin, and metal outside a layer of padding.  Here's a discussion by actual modern-day wearers of armor.   And another from the same forum, though seems to have more historical opinion, less first-hand experience than the previous.  They make good points about plate armor cutting the wind as opposed to mail which lets the wind right through.   Also the matter of sweat soaking the underlayers during exertion, and then being a liability when not active in the cold.  I rather doubt the devs intend to simulate sweating during exertion (though if fatigue came into the game, it'd be an easy hook for sweating).  Also importance of wearing a cloak or other layers outside the armor.

I'd imagine that historically you put on your armor the day of combat, maybe right before, did the heavy exertion of combat, and then if you were the winner you immediately dressed down and got by a fire to dry out.  As opposed to video games where players don't really want to have to deal with such fine points in most cases, I'd guess.  A single post elsewhere also pointed out that for the most part campaigns and combat in the field during winter were avoided for logistical reasons in the days of armor (though they were sometimes caught out).  Sieges would have gone through winters, but involved shelter for both sides.  So historically war during really freezing conditions was avoided.

In the end it's a fine point.  I do think that fur armor/clothing should provide more warmth than metal armor.  And so in extreme conditions the player will indeed be better off in fur.  I simply think it's a matter of the plate adding less warmth than the fur.  Not amplifying the cold.  But the sweating point does provide an argument for it. 

I'll have to take your word on the code stuff.  I still think it'd be better to have clothes separate, so they can be an item that wears out and needs replacing, in order to give the player incentive to farm leather, wool, and other materials involved.  The current version of TFC has a very unbalanced internal economy, in which leather and wool play almost no part.  I think it would benefit the game greatly for the player to have actual ongoing need of these materials, and clothes that wear out is a way to do it.  I don't think that four or five extra wearable slots is going to overly tax players.  I don't really see why it would be taxing from a code perspective either - I'm not qualified to judge that, but Bioxx already added a back slot.  How much harder could four other slots be?  Tons of mods do it.  You probably wouldn't actually need head slot for clothing, unless people were going to craft and wear hoods.  The head armor slot could suffice for anything worn on the head.

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Sweating should be hooked into body temp, not fatigue. Well ventilated clothing(duster, light clothing) would make sweating effective in losing heat. Try imagining a water-cooled plate armor.

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9 hours ago, Miner239 said:

Sweating should be hooked into body temp, not fatigue.

True, that'd be a more logical hook (and one we're more likely to have).  Though if you're also going to have sweating lower body temperature, you'd have to make sure you don't get in a feedback loop where the player gets warm enough to sweat, then sweating cools them below the sweating temp, but then they get warm enough to sweat, etc.  Which is why in my page 2 detailed example I was basing sweating off the ambient temperature, rather than body temperature.  I'm sure it could be dealt with another way though.

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After reading the information that you have linked and researching it further I stand by the formula with elaboration. 

(body heat + moving + clothing(wet or dry ) + (air temperature or water temperature)) * (1 + armor scaling factor)  = heat change amount

If you are generally warm the armor will make you warmer and if you are cold the armor will make you colder. Meaning if you are warm in your clothes despite the cold weather, then putting the armor on will make you warmer. If you are cold despite your warm clothes, putting armor on isn't going to make you any warmer. It'll actually make you colder. Now armor must be greater than -1. Meaning if you get some clothed wrapped armor it's scaling factor may be -.25 which means if you are generally warmer it'll make you less warm, but not cool. And if your cold it'll make you less cold but not warm.

Cloth in this system would still play an important role since you either have to have a set  of armor for each environment or keep getting cloth to re-crafting with your armor for each environment. Plus I'd allow people to make fabric blends like metal alloys that change it's dry and wet warmth values.

True, that'd be a more logical hook (and one we're more likely to have).  Though if you're also going to have sweating lower body temperature, you'd have to make sure you don't get in a feedback loop where the player gets warm enough to sweat, then sweating cools them below the sweating temp, but then they get warm enough to sweat, etc.  Which is why in my page 2 detailed example I was basing sweating off the ambient temperature, rather than body temperature.  I'm sure it could be dealt with another way though.

Actually the feed back loop works quite nicely. Instead of thirst based solely on time, when ever you sweat it decreases your hydration/thirst amount. This means no matter the weather, if you character is overly hot he's going to get thirsty quicker.

 

Edited by Stroam
Combining posts
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I like what Darmo said. Now I elaborated Darmo's idea, and probably i made lots of grammatical errors.

Anyway, think a fur armor should be added. The fur armor will be made in ways similar to the leather's (with less-worked hide), but it will keep the player from cold and will have 1/2 of the leather armor's defense points. The leather armor should keep the player only from freezing. (Leather will work on sub-artic and fur in artic).

And these 2 armors will be able to be crafted and uncrafted from all other types of armor, even themselves.

So we will have these combinations:

TFCArmor.PNG

Protection = OuterLayer+1/2*InnerLayer

Metal is always the OuterLayer, Fur is always the InnerLayer when combinated.

CurrentDurability = OuterLayer

When they are crafted the CurrentDurabilities of the two Layers are stored and the CurrentDurability of the OuterLayer becomes the CurrentDurability of the armor.

When the OuterLayer breaks (OC=0) or the armor is uncrafted, the CurrentDurability of the InnerLayer will be calculated in this way and rounded down:

   IC   =   (IS *(2 * OC + OS))  /  (3 * OS)

I=InnerLayer; O=OuterLayer; S=StoredDurability; C=CurrentDurability.

Example: You craft a leather armor with 500 of 1000 durability with an iron armor with 1000 of 1500 durability. You use the crafted armor until it gets to 500 of 1500. Then you uncraft the armor and the leather armor has 333 DurabilityPoints   (500 *(2 * 500 + 1000)) / (3 * 1000) = 1/3   rounded down.

So the InnerLayer will break only when the OuterLayer has already broken and if you craft two new armors together, when the OuterLayer breaks you will still have an half-used lighter armor.

 

I think these armors should have their own textures, giving to the players more variety in cloths and armor.

The problem is: Should every combination have it's own id? Should them be based on overlays or every combination should have its own texture? Will the firsts option be a problem for performance?

For what i know i would make that every combination has a id and a texture. I really don't know for the code (would work copy-paste-edit?), but i would make all the textures, if someone passes me metals'. I'll make some example textures to show what i mean with Leather-Leather, Leather-Fur, Fur-Fur, Metal-Leather and Metal-Fur

 

P.S. Who does not dream to be a Viking leader with the dedicated Big Wolf Hide Armor!?!?

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I do not like that system. There are 9 islands from North to South. 3 from cold to freezing, 3 cooler to warm, 3 hot to searing, I am assuming. The system you propose does not account for the 3 hotter islands. It appears the outer layer only is used for protection and not temperature. Meaning you could go outer fur - inner nothing and be fine in a hot climate. I don't see any indication that water effects the temperature range of the inner layer not that, that's a criteria at this point. It penalizes new inner layers and greatly extends nearly worn out inner layers.

For example lets say you have 2 new metal armors at 3000/3000. Lets say you have two inner fur, one is at max durability at 1000/1000, and the other is at 27/1000 durability. Now lets say you wear the the metal armor down to 1 durability. Using your formula:

  • New Fur: ( 1000 *( 2 * 1 + 3000 )) / ( 3 * 3000) = 333 at a lost of 777 durability
  • Old Fur: ( 27 *( 2 * 1 + 3000 )) / ( 3 * 3000) = 9 at a lost of 18 durability

Wow, lets use the 9 durability fur with full metal armor again and repeat till it breaks:

  • Old Fur: ( 9 *( 2 * 1 + 3000 )) / ( 3 * 3000) = 3 at a lost of 6 durability
  • Old Fur: ( 3 *( 2 * 1 + 3000 )) / ( 3 * 3000) = 1 at a lost of 6 durability
  • Old Fur: ( 1 *( 2 * 1 + 3000 )) / ( 3 * 3000) = 0 at a lost of 6 durability

So I was able to go through 4 metal armors with an almost broke bit of fur yet when I used a new fur I lost over 28 times as much durability in only 1 use. This even works no matter what the outer is made of. 

If you want to get into code specifics on how these systems could be done, I'll happily follow links to pastebin or github. However without specific code or code snippets, I don't want to get into the coding for a couple reasons. I don't want to discourage people who don't know code from posting on this thread. I also don't want any misinterpretations that would lead any individual to believe that we have broken this rule:

Quote

Unless you actually understand how to code Minecraft mods, do not include in your post whether or not you think your suggestion would be easy to implement.

Nor do I want to create an environment where it might lead others to break that rule. I know this is contradictory to my previous posts but that's why I tried my best to carefully word those posts. I no longer want to step toe so I'd just rather avoid the code on the thread. Formulas are okay though.

Edited by Stroam
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Sorry, if i didn't understand something.

I didn't focused on temperature system as i cant remember everything said about it.

Anb for that equation... i think it should be used if durability affects quality.

If not, the durability will of the InnerLayer will be:   IC=(OC/OS)*IS

And i have to confess that i made that equation only because I had an idea and I absolutely had to finish it. As no-one teached me to make an equation starting from goals it took me more than 12 hours. I knew I could make it in a easier way. But i really think that durability shoud be more like quality.

You others decide. I im happy with what I already did.

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When it comes to metal armor it can conduct heat either into or out of your body, so having metal against your skin in extreme climates wouldn't be good. However, putting a layer of cloth between the armor and your skin would reduce this effect. Different cloth has different characteristics. Wool is best for cold and it still insulates even if it gets wet. Cotton is better for mild climates because it isn't too hot or too cold but loses effectiveness when wet. I don't know much about silk but it allows heat to vent making it good for hot climates, it also dries off faster than the other ones. I don't know enough about jute or linen to really say much about those. Leather or hide would be neutral where it doesn't insulate well but doesn't conduct heat either like metal. Fur would be very warm but cause you to slow down due to the bulk of the fur.

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so I noticed that there is potentially folding other mods into the mix. Here's one that relates to temperature called tough as nails which does a pretty good job on the heating/cooling mechanics. 

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