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Miner239

Magic!

86 posts in this topic

I think you all focus so much on magic.

Fantasy does not mean magic.

First of all, the Player should not be able to use magic when he wants. Remember the Player is human and, in my opinion, magic should be something rare and couldn't be used everywhere. Nobody should be able to work with magic, turning to a mage, but only to utilize it for specific events and places.

No-one wants TerraFirmaCraft2 have things like magic staffs of Better Dungeons or Ender eyes thrown to the sky to see where is the portal, no?

Edited by Diego il Catanico Jr
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1 hour ago, Diego il Catanico Jr said:

First of all, the Player should not be able to use magic when he wants

How would magic be used then, I'm wondering?  Are you saying it's just a force of nature the player has to deal with?  The system could be made very difficult to master, if the devs wanted to take a route of only the really dedicated players get the really good magics. 

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2 hours ago, Diego il Catanico Jr said:

I think you all focus too much on magic.

Fantasy does not mean magic.

First of all, the Player should not be able to use magic when he wants. Remember the Player is human and, in my opinion, magic should be something rare and couldn't be used everywhere. Nobody should be able to work with magic, turning to a mage, but only to utilize it for specific events and places.

No-one wants TerraFirmaCraft2 have things like magic staffs of Better Dungeons or Ender eyes thrown to the sky to see where is the portal, no?

Um, dude. This thread is literally titled Magic. What do you expect, we talking about how spirits alters probabilities through the RNG?

Magic has always been fascinating mankind since the dawn of time. And, as with all resources, mankind needs to control it. It's only a discussion of how to implement it in TFC, since there's so many kinds of magic that *kinda* existed.

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16 hours ago, Darmo said:

How would magic be used then, I'm wondering?  Are you saying it's just a force of nature the player has to deal with?  The system could be made very difficult to master, if the devs wanted to take a route of only the really dedicated players get the really good magics. 

Yes, but it will be something different from classic magic mods.

15 hours ago, Miner239 said:

Um, dude. This thread is literally titled Magic. What do you expect, we talking about how spirits alters probabilities through the RNG?

Magic has always been fascinating mankind since the dawn of time. And, as with all resources, mankind needs to control it. It's only a discussion of how to implement it in TFC, since there's so many kinds of magic that *kinda* existed.

I want magic in TFC2.

But is a very delicate argument.

Magic should remain something strange and misterious, and often dangerous.

 

The simpliest and more common (but difficuld and not common) way to use magic can be potions.

Like the Druids in Asterix!

Serching for not common plants, like 4-leaves-clover, and animal parts (heart, brain), or rare vanilla ingredients, too.

And potion effects would last for more time than vanilla ones and slowly decrease.

But often potions should have collateral effects, like nausea (possibily strenght potions), blindness (when night vision effect ends), poison, and mining fatigue (regeneration).

And finally, a potion should not be called potion of strengh and have 1 effect.

I'm still thinking to Asterix... The "streght" potion should give strenght, resistance, and haste for example. And when ends nausea.

 

This is my idea, sorry for grammatical errors.

And this does not mean potions will be the only magic.

Other magics can be done in super rare altars, where you have to kill an entity, and the "output" will depend on what mob you killed and how you done the sacrifice. And, obiously killing player will give a lot of output. Leads should be used to capture other players.

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Other thing can be also oracles.

Well, they can't prevent what will appen.

But if an oracle says that there will be fire, then, there will be thunderstorms for a period that can ignite the woods.

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Sorry but I too really dislike the idea of magic in TFC2.

How about just adding a dowsing rod with the same practicality as in real life?

There are people who think it works. :)

 

Edit: Read somewhere that Bioxx has said that magic will be a part of TFC2, so sorry for this useless post.

Anyway the prospector's pick from TFC is more or less a working dowsing rod. :)

Edited by Xardas
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On 8/27/2016 at 1:35 PM, gandalfphysicist said:

I like this concept a lot actually. I see this as a kind of elemental attunement with the natural world. I feel like this system would be best added as a subtlety at first, but eventually may evolve into something that progresses with the player. The type of magic I feel would fit best within the universe that will be created by TFC2 is a bit unorthodox as magic systems go, but I think it may work. By the way, this idea is something that would more reasonably be added after the mod is somewhere near completion and assumes magic to be something players will work at as a main focus throughout the game. Here is my idea:

WARNING: This comment may get a bit complicated...well...I say a bit...:P

Basic idea: (Apparatus, Transmutation) Source, Vessel, (Transmutation), Focus.

Explanation: 

Let's use fire magic as an example. Imagine you want to cast a flame spell. Instead of using a mana and pyromancy system (Using mana and channeling it into arcane fire), I would like to refer to the post quoted above. The energy would be drawn from like Sources.  (Source)


- I want to cast a flame spell, so I must first absorb the flame from something that already contains some sort of flame (In the case of TFC1, campfire, kiln pit, forge, etc.)

The flame will then be transferred from the source to the Vessel (the Vessel being the mage). This "vessel" would hold the raw magical form of the flame found in the source. (Imagine mana, but element-specific. I absorb fire, I can only cast fire)  (Vessel)

 - I hold the flame in my hand and see its power indicated by a new bar appearing on-screen

From here the flame can be cast as is, or proceed to the next step. (Focus) 

 - I use my flame to cast a short burst of fire at my target (Imagine Igni from the Witcher series), The target is lit on fire.

But, what if I require something a bit more powerful? From the vessel stage, my flame can be manipulated, the more drastic the change from the original source, the more energy it uses (as we are getting into alchemical transumtation territory at this point) Converting a flame into a firebolt would take more flame to provide the energy to manipulate the starting flame. (Transmutation)

- I need to absorb more essence. I light a campfire and let it get really hot. I hold a hotkey over the fire and let my flame indicator fill as the campfire is drained of energy. After I've contained enough, I press another hotkey and a quick-select GUI opens. I can now select the form my flame will take. I tab over to the firebolt icon and my flame condenses into a castable firebolt.


Now, picture this. I am under siege by three other players and magic is my only defense. (I went full mage. Never Always go full mage...) What do you do if you really don't feel like making a crap load of campfires and sluggishly casting your small flame burst at your adversaries as you are promptly overrun and destroyed? Here comes the apparatus stage!

- I know this attack is coming for the sake of this post because of my spies strategically placed in the enemy base. I create an elemental crystal that i can cast flame spells into to fill its internal buffer. I see my enemies on the horizon and i right click with the crystal in my hand to fill my player buffer. I select firebolt and begin to rain fiery death on my foe.

Now, the only thing I haven't mentioned thus far: transmutation from the apparatus stage. An elemental crystal is a type of apparatus that can be used to store magical energy absorbed by the mage, but others exist as well. Such as an apparatus used to convert flame into, say, frost.

- My ally is by my side in my time of need. She uses an elemental crystal filled with flame and plugs it into a really interesting looking, 3D modeled, late-game device I've created and uses raw magical energy or specific raw materials to transmute her flame into frost. I see my enemies on the horizon and my ally sprints behind them and slows them with a frost spell. This makes targeting easier as I rain fiery death on my foe.

This system can be applied to various types of magic, mixing multiple essences (Earth and Fire to create an explosive fireball), expediting growth of crops, cooling stored food, turning your enemies into ice sculptures, etc. I thought a system like this would compliment TerraFirmaCraft's In-world focus and TerraFirmaCraft2's Adventure focus. I just thought I should provide a bit of input because I love magic systems :P. I can see a few problems with my system though. In my personal opinion, a little semi-automation would be nice, such as a machine that assists in the absorption and storing of essence. I wouldn't want a feature set like this to feel grindy, so multiple ways of absorbing, channeling, and combining elements would make the system feel more complete. As for the art style of the various apparatus I was picturing something like the image below. If anyone is genuinely interested in this idea and would like a more balanced and non-grindy form of it, I would gladly write another post lol. I'm excited to see where the TFC2 magic system goes and I hope I've provided some substantial ideas for the developers.

As a side note: If this becomes a thing, I have some experience with modeling and texturing and I would be willing to assist in that respect.

Image result for alchemical distillery

 

Thank you for your time reading this comment :) 


 

Hello, I recently posted this idea in the wrong thread (sorry). It was pointed out to me that there is a massive outstanding problem in the system. The system I proposed doesn't really complement or go into detail about the other elemental forces the player should be able to harness, like water or lightning. So, I've decided to move the thread and tweak the idea a bit. 

I feel that, to include the other elements, this system would have to be a primarily absorption and channeling system. This would put a heck of a lot more emphasis on material and technological progression rather than player specific progression (Which has a very TFC feel to it anyway, so it works out :P).

I'm working on a more final idea and I'll post it when it's completed :) 

Edited by gandalfphysicist
Wording Error
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I didn't think so at first but the more I've mulled over it the only real new suggestion is magic so it does belong here. Wish I could just copy past the entire thread here since it's like 4 posts but I can copy paste the first one at least. Anyone else who has further comments please to it on this thread and let the other one go to the archives.

 

So when I hear Island progression it made me really excited! It lends it's self well to a pirate-ish theme. That being said this quote is the inspiration for this post.

Gibbs: So the Pearl. Any idea on how to get her out?

Jack Sparrow: We shall need a crossbow, an hourglass, three goats, one of us must learn to play the trumpet, whilst the other one goes like this.

Gibbs: I know a man with a goat.

Jack Sparrow: Good. I can go like this.

I think it would be awesome for two paths to develop. First everyone starts the same. Sticks and rocks. As people become more settled after the basics of food, water, shelter they now have time to sit and stare into the fire getting ideas. Some chop down trees and dig into the earth to pull out precious metals which through heat and tools shape armor and weapons. They build rails for transportation of goods, they construct wind or river powered mills. They sow seed and raise crops which they store in silos for when winter hits. Eventually they build ships and sail to other lands to do the same. 

Then there is the second set of people. They stare into the fire and eat herbs that given them visions. They carefully go out and collect odd and random things. A bone from a chicken, tooth of a bear, skull of a human skeleton, wax from bees, and wool of a goat. They construct totems in precise arrangements and throw things into the fire while wearing ceremonial robes made from bear leather and goat wool. Just as day breaks the ceremony completes and enchants the head band on the altar with the ability to breath longer underwater. They then put on the head band and go to a cliff, they pick up a heavy rock and jump off the cliff with the rock in their hands. They land in the water below and the rock makes them sink fast. They get to the bottom and let the rock go. They pull out a knife and gather an oyster or two before swimming back up to the surface. They then Gather a bunch more stuff. Certain types of stone which they carve on the beach. After gathering tons of pearls they finally find a black one. Then they spend weeks upon weeks finishing the altar on the beach. While they toil they preform more ceremonies strengthening their armor made of bones and leather with powerful enchantments and infusions. When all is ready they do a ceremony there on the beach under a full moon. They sacrifice a rare white crab they fished out of the ocean, that has been cooked in a stew made from roots found in a cave, liver of a deer, a flower that only blooms at midnight on the north side of the mountain, and the hair of a rabbit. A giant turtle gets summoned that allows them to travel to another land where there will be stronger animals to kills, different items to collect, new ceremonies to discover and preform. 

So that's the pitch. Now to the break down. So the first set of people, well call Sam, would work on skills such as prospecting, smiting, wood carving, and agriculture. The second set, we'll call Conan, would work on cooking/brewing, butchering, stone carving/gem cutting, and fabrics. Sam would strengthen his weapons and armor through different alloys, ores, and smiting practices. Conan would do it through different bones\shells, hides, carvings, and enchantments. Sam gathers ore, processes it, and shapes it. Conan gathers various stuff, processes and carves it, then assembles it. Sam builds forges, bloomeries, blast furnaces, and docks. Conan builds various altars and temples in fairly precise formations and locations. Sam builds boats using wood, and metal, and pays his "crew" with each crossing. Conan summons his mount with a sacrifice of rare things he's gathered. Sam has swords, axes, and metal spears. Conan has toothed blades,  spiked clubs, and bone tipped spears. Sam has to sharpen his weapons over time. Conan reapplies poisons on his. 

So far pretty even, now how they differ. Conan gets his food while gathering resources, risking dangerous mobs. Sam risks nothing with his crop fields and but does rick cave in when mining. Conan looks up in the mountains, in caves, and all around for herbs. Conan fishes and dives. Sam cuts wood, digs, and manages crops. Now it does benefit Conan to have a small herb garden and it benefits Sam to raise some animals, but they can trade. Conan could use precious metals and gems for boosting his stuff. Sam could use special leathers and ivory for his stuff.

It all is fairly balance-able while offering two unique styles of play that go well together. What stops Sam and Conan from crossing over. Conan would need to work his ways up the metal tree while developing new skills. Sam would need to develop the skills to get the drops he needs. So Sam could spend time fishing but that doesn't help him progress, and Conan could smith, but that doesn't help him with his progression either. 

[edit 12/13/2016]

Continuing with the tribal/shamanistic magic there is often an issue of players having to leave for a period of time. If animals have a maintenance cost, instead of risking your animals dying when you are gone, there could be a complex and expensive ritual that would take the animal and turn it into a totem. You could then perform another complex and expensive ritual that would release the animal from the totem. This ritual would require more than one person because it isn't an issue in single player. You could then have a chance of finding random totems in loot throughout the world. Now for a colorful depiction of the ritual.

During the night you can hear chanting in the forest. As you cautiously get closer you see large rocks arranged in a ring with elaborate carvings all over them. You can make out three people dancing around a cage, their shadows being cast on it by the surrounding torches mounted on the rocks. You see them laying stuff on mats under four of the rocks. You come closer to get a better view and can see gems to the north, metals to south, herbs to the east, and bone or shell fragments to the west. A snort brings your attention back to the cage and you squint to make out a cow from the shadows inside. Your head turns as you hear the sound of another cow being brought out by one of the dancers. She leads it on top of a stone table overlooking the pen and takes out the knife pointing it in front of her. The other two dancers move to stand on opposite sides of the cage on top of some carved black stones. The woman on the altar tosses a container on the cow in the pit that breaks over top the animal releasing some liquid which flows over the cow. She then plunges the blade into the cow on the altar which instantly kills it. The offerings below the stones turn into glowing magical beings who then step back into the stone. As they do so the glyphs carved all over the stones suddenly glow brightly and the cow in the pen gets lifted up in the air. Balls of light spring forth from the stones and strike the cow creating a light so bright you have to look away. The light goes away as quickly as it came. When you look back none of the glyphs on the stones are glowing anymore and the woman has jumped down into the cage. She holds up a small totem with horns in the air and the other two dancers cheer. You take the chance to slip away to think about the strange ritual you just witnessed.

Can't wait to get some feed back.

Edited by Stroam
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Well, I don't know if you were interested in any comments from me given that I've already commented quite a bit on your other threads.  But knowing that you advocate for allowing simultaneous pursuit of all skills, I'm interested in how you envision the division between Sam and Conan actually working.  You talk of Conan using natural armors and weapons.  But what's to stop him from using metal ones?    Are only natural weapons and armor enchantable?  I'm curious if you're envisioning more than just roleplay separating Sam and Conan?

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I loved your comments, just didn't want to make an already huge post bigger so copied the first one and left a link for those who were interested. Nothing is to stop him from using metal weapons. Correct, only natural armors and weapons are enchantable. The only thing that separates them is time and resources. Any further separation skill wise is handled in that thread. The different paths would be equal but different. You cold have a redsteel sharpened blade with a nice leather handle with a utility enhancement will be equal to the troll bone blade with fire aspect and some utility enchancement.

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Any thoughts on other aspects aside form weapon/armor enchants?  Summoning,  temporary buffs, other utility magic that isn't weapon/armor based?  Would it be practical to pursue metal weapons, but magical summoning or buff spells?   A player could kind of mix-and-match magic and mundane things?  And would there be mundane parallels to the other magics, such as alchemy (parallels magic buffs) and engineering (parallels summoning via constructed automatons)?  And presumably a player could pursue these things in whatever mix they wish?

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No summoning as it is an extremely evil act to rip a being out of it's material plain in your own. Plus AI is hard and if one was to make AI for TFC 2 I'd rather see it in more challenging enemies. 

Temporary buffs I could see being introduced with a future update but not the core as those require even more thought to balance it with everything else. The easiest way to balance it is making it uncraftable and use it as loot rewards. Keeps the value high, promotes continued interest in ruins, and gives neither path an unfair advantage. 

Later as an update or mod I envision potentially an epic path, one that you don't start until you've gone down one of the first two quite a ways. This path would task you with certain quests that would have a relaxed time limit that would only count down while playing. You start by finding a temple dedicated to a deity and their sacred book. After reading a description of the deity's goals you may agree to help the deity in return for it's blessings. This is a binding agreement and prevents you from signing up with any other deity so choose wisely. The book gives you quests similar to the Hardcore Questing mod and gives you temporary buffs at opportune times while you are completing a quest. As you complete more quests for the deity you will gain favor and the stronger the buffs become, the longer they will last, the more frequent they'll happen and more relaxed the time limits. If you should fail a quest you'll fall in disfavor with the deity which will decrease the buffs and eventually get random debuffs at inopportune times if you continue to fail the deity. In order to break your bond with your deity it requires you to build an altar out of all the metals in various quantities with a chest of the rarest items on top of it then destroy the sacred text in a fire at the base of the statue. This will destroy the statute and items, then teleport you to an arena in another dimension where you will do battle with a champion of the deity. Win or lose you will awaken at your spawn point stripped of all your gear. If you won you are now free of the deity and may sign up with another one if you wish. If you lose you are still tied to the deity.

technical aspects

Buffs would have specific triggers and cool downs defined by the deity with strength and duration based off favor. Quests would be randomly drawn from a weighted list of quests at the completion of the last quest with some quests having a higher weight. Benefits include constant maintenance to continually get buffs, work put in to get stronger buffs, and high exit costs.

Artistic license is given to who the deities are and things they want to happen.

Edited by Stroam
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9 hours ago, Stroam said:

Temporary buffs I could see being introduced with a future update but not the core as those require even more thought to balance it with everything else.

That was my concern as well.  How do you balance a non-magic path against anything outside combat magic?  It does have potential to get extremely complex if true balance is desired.  Personally I'd rather see magic encompass all manner of spells and enchantments, and not be limited to just combat stuff.  I feel like the role of magic would be diminished if it's basically just an equivalent to a mundane path.  I guess I prefer the classic D&D paradigm of the warrior being the tank, while the mage is the glass cannon.  In video games, I'm used to your warrior type being the easiest to play - most reliable with fewest details to manage - while magic users are more complex and fragile, but ultimately more interesting.  I don't think it's a bad thing.  And in SMP, I think it'd be good for them to each have weaknesses that the other can reinforce, to encourage cooperation.  Perhaps have ultimate crafting recipes that can only be completed with the help of each other.

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 Well none combat enchantments can be balanced. For instance a water breathing enchantment on a head band that increases how long you can spend under water can be balanced with a non magical device that does the same thing like an air bladder. Temporary enhancements require more thought because you have to balance it with the gameplay, between the paths that already exist, make sure it doesn't displace something else, and it needs to make sense within the context of the gameplay. Games either don't explain it, say it magic/supernatural, or instant effect drugs/potions. I am sure if added in the game most players will accept it without to much thought and there's nothing wrong with that. 

I do see where you are coming in the context of an active and dedicated SMP. That's just hasn't been the experience I've had with minecraft and it doesn't work as well without that context. The games settings and play styles you are referring to are almost strictly combat oriented where minecraft is a building game. So I don't think what you are suggesting will work very well but as I have not played any modpack that does what you suggest I could also be very wrong in that assumption. I am also biased from all the different game experiences I've had, so pulling more from experience to guide me than imagination, and personal preference that I don't like to be limited by hard limits.

As for what binds players together I started a new thread for that here since that is a discussion all onto it's self and I want your input.

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52 minutes ago, Stroam said:

 The games settings and play styles you are referring to are almost strictly combat oriented where minecraft is a building game.

I've actually made that argument myself in other places, but the totality of the info that we have up to this points indicates that TFC2 is going to be heavily combat oriented.   So I've been trying to suggest within that context, rather than roll the boulder uphill. 

Which isn't to say there's no room for non-combat stuff, there definitely is.  But it seems that combat is going to be inescapable in single player, unless the player wants to spend the game in the stone age.  SMP could have people specializing in non-combat roles, avoiding combat entirley, as long as they have combat oriented allies to advance up the tech tree with.  At least that how it seems to me so far.

Edited by Darmo
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I have a strong feeling that the new progression is going to be achievement based. But I don't know that it's going to be more combat oriented. If you could find the remarks from Kitty and Bioxx that makes you think it's going to be more combat oriented I'd like to read them.

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2 hours ago, Stroam said:

If you could find the remarks from Kitty and Bioxx that makes you think it's going to be more combat oriented I'd like to read them.

here's a post I made in April, which is a sort of compendium of links to even older posts where Bioxx has touched on some of the broad-brush plans.  I haven't gone and re-read every one of those links, but I think they'll cover most of the stuff that gave me the impression of TFC2 being very combat-oriented.

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I can definitely see where you are coming from. It definitely makes it seem to be more combat oriented than TFC 1. If you wanted to bet that there would be a combat oriented objective in TFC 2 I would not bet against you. But it doesn't have to be. You could subdue an island by entering in a temple, avoiding some traps, solve some puzzles, go through some timed archery and obstacle course, then activate a triggered event that not only unlocks building on the island after 30 seconds but also causes the entire place to start collapsing giving you barely enough time to run out or die.

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Ya, Bioxx quite often made it clear that some of the ideas are still malleable.  Things could always change.  But we haven't heard anything to that effect really, as far as I know.  If you want to discuss the nature of the game objective, you may want to post in one of those other threads - we've kind of started to derail from the magic thread here.

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Conjured stuff does not really need to be complicated. I envision spectral blades(courtesy of Brogue) that have fixed, upgradable linear speed and a limited turn speed. These will chase any hostile or targeted entities.

 

Speaking of magic, I have improved upon my modular magic model...

 

I feel guilty from abandoning this thread.

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Continuing with the tribal/shamanistic magic there is often an issue of players having to leave for a period of time. If animals have a maintenance cost, instead of risking your animals dying when you are gone, there could be a complex and expensive ritual that would take the animal and turn it into a totem. You could then perform another complex and expensive ritual that would release the animal from the totem. This ritual would require more than one person because it isn't an issue in single player. You could then have a chance of finding random totems in loot throughout the world. Now for a colorful depiction of the ritual.

During the night you can hear chanting in the forest. As you cautiously get closer you see large rocks arranged in a ring with elaborate carvings all over them. You can make out three people dancing around a cage, their shadows being cast on it by the surrounding torches mounted on the rocks. You see them laying stuff on mats under four of the rocks. You come closer to get a better view and can see gems to the north, metals to south, herbs to the east, and bone or shell fragments to the west. A snort brings your attention back to the cage and you squint to make out a cow from the shadows inside. Your head turns as you hear the sound of another cow being brought out by one of the dancers. She leads it on top of a stone table overlooking the pen and takes out the knife pointing it in front of her. The other two dancers move to stand on opposite sides of the cage on top of some carved black stones. The woman on the altar tosses a container on the cow in the pit that breaks over top the animal releasing some liquid which flows over the cow. She then plunges the blade into the cow on the altar which instantly kills it. The offerings below the stones turn into glowing magical beings who then step back into the stone. As they do so the glyphs carved all over the stones suddenly glow brightly and the cow in the pen gets lifted up in the air. Balls of light spring forth from the stones and strike the cow creating a light so bright you have to look away. The light goes away as quickly as it came. When you look back none of the glyphs on the stones are glowing anymore and the woman has jumped down into the cage. She holds up a small totem with horns in the air and the other two dancers cheer. You take the chance to slip away to think about the strange ritual you just witnessed.

Edited by Stroam
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I think people wouldn't utilize the totem idea because your sacrificing metal, gems, and a cow just to turn one cow into a totem, isn't really worth the cost

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First of all it's a colorful depiction, not necessarily an accurate one. If it was 1 tin ingot, any chipped gem, any sapling, a bone, and sacrificing one of the same animal I think everyone would use it if making the carves stones was easier than transporting the animal. What the offerings are is something to work out during testing by whom ever codes it. 

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It could actually be very worth the cost, depending on how hard it is to transport animals between islands.  I think Stroam was also perhaps suggesting this in response to some server issues we were discussing in another thread, that being to in effect 'store' your animals if you're going to be gone a long time on an SMP server, to protect them from potential starvation or disease.  I could also see freezing them in crystal, or dressing them up in fancy enchanted headdresses to ward off disease as lower tier methods perhaps (lower tier since they lack the carrying convenience). 

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I think a lower tier magical method would to be just periodically sick up wards around the pen with a hidden expiration date instead of headbands. Lots of cultures did that and a priest/shaman would have to come by every so often to re-ward the area to protected it against this and that.

Edited by Stroam
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