chepelink

I think that this is mainly the problem. Clay is just essential. There is no substitute to it early on. For example, if you wish to carry drinking water early, you need clay (as far as I remember). This would make escaping or surviving in the desert many times harder. So, the best solution could be just to have alternatives to clay, at least in core survival aspects like carrying water and store food. By the way, clay in deserts... totally dependent on the type of desert, and even sandy deserts may have clay (rare, way more rare than water).

In terms of mechanics about this topic I have 3 concerns about the decay method (any method). In order of importance: 1. Optimization. TFC is already a heavy mod, and decay is just a collection of more lag, particularly in multiplayer. I'm not that particular savvy about ticks in Minecraft, I don't know if there are ticks that happens every day or every 6/8 game hrs.Thus, I think that the best decay mechanic would be one that it is easy on the game. Tony's idea, if it can be done every day, would be better in this regard. 2. Preservation. Some decay mechanics does not really align very well with preservation mechanics in an intuitive manner. The more complex it is, the less intuitive it becomes. Also, since trimming is gone, how to make the preservation system works with decaying food? Again, Tony's idea seems to work fine with expiration days if we expand the expiration days idea. For example, freshness labels: "Recently Harvested", "Fresh", "Decaying", "Rotten". Now, if we add a number (hidden to the player or otherwise) "Recently Harvested 3", means that it has 3 days before becoming "Fresh". This also present an opportunity to a bit more of survival management and risk vs reward. First, rotten food is not discarded automatically until it reaches zero, but has a very high chance of diseases. Decaying has low chance of diseases while Fresh and Recently Harvested have no risk and are the only food that can be preserved. 3 Inventory Space. My third and least important concern is inventory space. What I liked about the use of weight is that some items were too light (like berries) and could stack more of those. Obviously this can be changed that different food has different stack sizes. Thus, I'm not that concern about this. But I wanted to address it since I think it is important. Overall, I think Tony's idea may be the best if we just clean it a bit more.

Though I agree with the sentiment about the struggle, bear in mind that the struggle should be something achievable. The ideal scenario would be that any starting area should have all the basic necessities. This is to ensure that every starting area can sustain a player but, at the same time, without stopping the need of exploration. What I mean is that, for example, if we spawn in the desert, the desert should have "oasis" of water and clay. The clay, as far as I remember, is needed for long trips (for water and food preservation). Now, I don't mean that every biome should have every basic stuff. No. Only starting areas. What would be the point to start in a biome where you cannot survive? That only would encourage resetting the world until you find a biome where you can survive. Thus negating the idea of struggles. Now, the ideal would be that each biome have different challenges; the desert should have less resources and more lethal climate than a jungle, but the jungle should have more dangerous animals and less maneuverable spaces.

Well, I did not thought about the RPG nutritional as temporary buffs, or to be precise, I thought about them as consequences of a good/bad diet (the more balanced the better). The names were something that I made up without too much thought. Strength as you said is easy, Endurance could be called Constitution or simple HP capacity. Mana fluidity is more of a concept (and bad namingsense)of the -not yet conceptualized- magical system, where, if there is mana, it can be affected depending on how healthy you are. In regards of "healthy" and "diet", the old TFC1 method of just max everything to be healthy is a bit of a miss-opportunity in regards of a balanced diet (not too much protein but not too little). Take of example Mana fluidity (MF), if MF islow, mana capacity (max MP) would be lower, and the lower MF is, the harder is to have maintain mana. On the other hand, too much MF and you enter an overload state, where mana regen is stopped and too much MF and you may die of mana backlash (random wither effect, for example). In the case of STR, the idea is quite similar, to much and you have overgrown your muscles (oversimplification, I know, but it's a game) and your handling/swinging speed decrease, and energy consumption (hunger) increase. Obviously it is just a general idea and there is going to be adjusted if implemented.

Stroam, you made my day. I was feeling blue but you made me had a nice laugh. Don't ask me why I found so funny thinking how to "abstract" from 5 to 8.Don't mind me Any way, For one side I understand changing the numbers to not longer fit a pre-understood system. I like the idea in general, but I am thinking, is it complexity for the sake of complexity? What if, instead of the classical nutritional approach we focus on a more RPG style approach? For example, Strength might, Mind fluidity, Endurance (HP), Mana veins, and Stamina. These are an example (and maybe a bit bad), but the general idea is that each food instead of being in a single group, they have different "RPG nutritional" values that works toward a particular clear goal. They can also have consequences for over eating or the lack thereof: Too much STR and your "muscles" grow big and slow you down your swings, to little and your carry capacity suffer, and so on. You can also balance towards healty balanced diets;after a particularthreshold the "body" start to have adverse effect if the values are not balanced enough, you can die or you can explode (and die). The idea is the "same" from the nutritional approach, just with a different, more gaming, focus. It is believable since you can say that "it is the reflection of a healthy diet, just you are measuring different things". And with that you are free from the "mundane real world".

Why I didn't notice this thread before... Anyway. Imagine for a second a swarm of little soft blocks that process food material at almost 100% efficiency. Now imagine that these softy, bouncy blocks duplicates themselves after doubling their starting weight in a similar fashion of that of an amoeba. They don't breath, they can swim and they like to eat crops (too nutritious). What would happen if one of these little cuties spawn in the lake where your crops are (evil grin)? Sparkling a bit of the creativity that lady evolution has and make some of them being poisonous or have a viscous and acidic skin that love to mimic a grass block or some leafs in a tree waiting for an unsuspecting prey. But as any creature, they might have some utility. Some might be too dangerous to keep them, but some other might be the ideal bio trash dispenser; their hard core might be useful as a compact food source and their jelly like flesh basis for some potions. Have some food that are about to expire? What about some organic material left from the harvest? 'Tag' some these creatures and enjoy the best trash can that an explorer might want. Interested? I present you... the slime. The best friend of any designer... is just a square blob. The newbie best buddy, easy to kill, hard to be killed by it (and maybe the most embarrassing death that you can have, ideal for funny stories). The emergency ration of any explorer1. The most wonderful biodegradable trash collector2. It may come in your favorite color3. 1,2,3(Conditions apply, poisonous and flesh eating might not be the most suitable of slimes. We are not responsible for any misuse and mishandle that may end in an infestation and a year of crops lost. 'Do not feed after midnight') Well, after that introduction I may say that slimes are probably one of the less expanded monster in general. I always wondered how this little creatures that even a child can kill survives. I think they behave in a similar fashion of a sea turtle, where the sheer amount of offspring overwhelm the predators ensuring the surviving of at least some. I think the slimes may behave in a similar way, great food processors with a fast reproduction cycle and, in a sense, not strong enough to decimate any monster. Even their nutritious core might be a survivable strategy: filling for several days andhard to eat in quick successions ensuring that the population last enough for them to reproduce. Any way, I think that slimes would be a great monster for the first and second island with some unique mechanics worth exploring.

@Darmo Ok, I see, if that is the case the weight system make a bit more sense. I totally forgot about that mine cart's post XD. The speed debuff in armors was a substitution of the encumbrance idea, but if the goal is to make the encumbrance and weight system a thing there is little point in it (the debuff). But, because I still think that having a slot based inventory and an encumbrance system a bit of a punishment. In that regards I suggest that the containers that the player can make would be easy and fast to make with any hassle. You want to put a bed in a backpack? You can, because magic!!! (or something like that). Since there is little point in limiting the number of slots because there is weight as a limiting factor, I think that allowing the player to have easy access to inventory expansion is a great way to managing storage and the full with nothing problem. Obviously I'm talking about the general containers without any weight reduction. If there is going to exist magic, I would like to see weight reducing backpacks on high tiers that are a bit hard to make. As far as I can tell, right now the 3 factors are: Slots - alleviated with easy to access and use backpacks to avoid the "full with weightless items"problem. Stacks (may be determined by size of the object, e.g. 64 seeds or 8 spears - alleviated with vehiclesand backpacks. Weight - alleviated with vehicles, magical backpacks (maybe) and "strength/class?" What can be a 4th factor? @Stroam Although I like your idea of the item mechanic that you proposed, I think that the slot reduction is not very well suited for a heavy item game as MC. Just with Pam's mod there are already tons of items. just with stones, sticks, hay/grass, an axe, a knife and two - tree stacks of food and half of the hotbar is already full. So, no, limiting the inventory is extremely harsh and unnecessary. But the idea of teaching the weight mechanic is very good, but I don't know how without using text.

The main problem I have with encumbrance is that it is too punitive and kind of unnecessary for Minecraft. Unnecessary in the sense that there are already two major things placed that work similar to the encumbrance mechanic: limit number of slots, and stack size. Because how the games works the limited number of slots already put the a limit in the types of items that you can carry. This is already a limiting factor that has its own problems. You can fill your inventory with different types of seeds or almost weightless items, making your carrying capacityfull with nothing. The second thing, stack size, is highly tied to the first problem. Different items have different maximum stack capacity. Tie it with the first mechanic and now you have a carry mechanic in place. Both, encumbrance and slots mechanics, workagainst each other. In one hand you are limited in the number of items you can carry, in the other handthe weight that also would limit you. I like the idea of one of them being the main mechanic, but not both. In both cases you can have vehicles that help you with the problem, being weight or being slots. In the case of slots the limit and balance is done in the size of the inventory and stack size: you can also implement bag packs as mechanic. In the case of encumbrance you can use stats like strengthto determine the carrying capacity. As things are right now, Minecraft has already implemented one of the mechanics, I think that it would be better, easier and more natural to expand the slot mechanic rather than incorporate the encumbrance mechanic. Furthermore, the way TFC1 used the barrels and the "back" slot was perfect. I think that that would also be applied to big items like the "tier 6" category that you proposed Saying that, what I like is the idea of armor and weapons having effects on your speed (but not carried items). What do you think of, instead of encumbrance in items, applying speed debuffs to armors based on weight/ metal properties? For example, a metal chest part would reduce the speed 20% without STR modfiers and 10% with max STR (just saying). It can also be expanded by making alloys and magic runes/inscriptions/enchanting:lighter alloys can have the same protection but 30% lighter (for example), or the same weight but higher protection. It can be even expanded to the manufacture process, something like a "layer" based armor (1, 2 or 3 layers) 1 layer metal breastplate (2 ingots to make)(if iron used speed penalty 10%) 2 layers metal breastplate (4 ingots to make)(if iron used speed penalty 20%) 3 layers metal breastplate (6 ingots to make)(if iron used speed penalty 30%)

I just want to play with the physic of the blocks... It looked soo cool back then <3

May I ask how is not believable gate the progress of technologies because of better materials? Is not that you cannot fish without metal tools. Pick a pair of stone, make a lance and try your luck... or you can do it it sharp pieces of wood. In game that would be represented as maybe one wood tool from the beginning or maybe a stone spear. But there is a limitation of where you can fish with a spear... you cannot fish with a spear in some places, or it would require a lot of luck to do it (and let not touch the durability of the spear andhitting a rock with it). But witha piece of string and a tiny piece of metal in the shape of a hook and you can fish deeper and faster, you can change spots much more easily that you can do with a spear. The same applies to the tools to make different traps. Some stone tools are extremely sharp and can be used to carve wood easily, but the durability is another factor. Metals tools came to revolutionized every piece of technology made from stone. Easier to handle, more durable and with the capability of making more complex things. It is not "gated" per-se, you can easily ignore the progression of the metal tiers and catch fishes with rudimentary equipment (talking about TFC2). On the other hand, creating better tools and improving the technology with the acquiring of better materials is believable, I even dare to say that it would be realistic.

True, but that is if you look from the perspective of a single feature. For example, saying that having the ore tied with a stone type and not every "biome" have that stone type is to cater to explorer, since it is literally having you (the player) to explore the world (and you get rewarded).TFC1 as a whole cater to both types of players... one a bit more than the other, though. TFC2 has islands to explore and to conquer, that in itself is catering to both players: the explorers and the achievers. By the way, depending on how you focus the research it can cater to explorer or to achievers; too complex and hardbut not random enough and it would be an achievement to finish all the topics/talents but too mainstream to do it (and vice versa, a random but easy system would reward the feeling of exploration/research, but would not be an achievement since it'd be easy) Yup, I update my comment to reflect my lack of clearness. I know very well that, I am a developer. The context here is that making a piece of code consume time and, if the feature is not used or don't add something particularly deep to the game, is better not to do it. But, at the same time, that code with a little tweaks (andthe power of imagination) you can expand it to other features. In this regard, knaping and pottery that may share the same code is a perfect example of this... and also, it can be expanded a bit more to include other features that make sense. So... Right, but the sandwich making interface and mechanic can be re-styled and rewrittento make potions: put a bitof 'x' herb here, a bit of herb 'y' there, put a catalyst, aliquid base and instead of bread use a glass bottle, andyou have a potion. Instead of flavor you have three properties (healing, poison, neutral) and each property instead of having nutrition values it may have descriptorspotency, duration, and side effect (for neutral potions that would be, for example, a potion of swimming). And the weight system can alter the properties and descriptors of the potion based on the weight of the herbs andcatalystused. I fixed a bit more. The context is that develop a feature cost time, and if the feature is not good enough to worth the effort it is better to not do it. In this regard, the focus on an innate system, while boring in a principle, can free time to other features... like expanding the island progression or having classes or skills or better enemies (AI wise or otherwise). But, if the research system can be expanded to other things that are not just magic, it may be worth the time to develop it.

I agree with you in your statements, ideas and positions in general. Just a few things to consider... thinking just about weapons: how do you balance melee vs range? sword vs bow? If we think in real life, bow is by far a superior weapon in most situations. It has range, it has speed and its deadly. The downside? It has ammunition, and in TFC that means you have to make them. It still the same dilemma, how you balance a weapon that require ammunition vs one that does not (ignoring durability, obviously)? The answer applies to magic too, and there is more than one answers. As you put it... it can be done by making magic do weird things, more focus on quality life and things like that, or to make the mobs weak and strong against type of attacks. But here it is the deal, I think that what we should looking is more to fulfill a fantasy rather than to balance the game (though I don't think that balance is not necessary). I've seen many players that just want to play a class that the enjoy, no mater how weak or strong it is... as long as the class fulfill the fantasy, though. Who does not want to be a knight? Or a Wizard? Or a wizard knight? Or an Arcane Archer? Or a thief? Or a bomber/grenadier? Or anaked two-handed axe-wielding barbarian gnome? I think that as long as the disparity on damage of the options are not that big, players will find their niche. For the research part. As long as is doable in single player (or toggleable) I think that research can be an interesting part of the mod, not only for magic, but for some other things. The thing with coding is that, once you have a piece of working code, changing a bit here and there to give it different flavors is not that hard... at least not as making it works. For example, let say that the devs have a working code of the knapping and pottery fromTFC1, and that both are made using the same base code. What stop the devs to use the same interface to expand it to handle magical runes made from stone and talismans made from carving wood? Yes, it would take time to create the texture and the new formulas, but is not like stating from zero. The same can be applied to research... if the devs sinks their time into the research interface, they may well expand it (the interface) to other things, like metallurgy (researching recipes), gem cutting, cooking, alchemy and herbalism. This expansion of the interface may make TFC2even more deep and fun, but it can also carry the cost of taking out time for developing other features (or refining the island system) and dilute the main content. In that regard, the innate system might have an advantage. At least is up to the devs what approach might want. It may be that they release as innate and change it over the course of the alpha.

I do agree with you on this. People like discovery and achievement. The thing is that magic research is not the only way to achieve this; the island progression is another way. And this is where my question about research or innate become relevant. How much the island progression is going to impact TFC2 gameplay and discoveries? If its is going to be a huge part of it, almost as if it is the core of the mod, how much research can you put into magic (and other things for that mater) that does not break the main goal? Is innate a better approach to not padding the game too much? Another thing, ifit is always "easy-mode" (or innate, too) the development time and resources can be focus on a much better experience of island progression. Almost as if saying; "Look, there is magic in this mod andyou can use it from the get-go, but the progression is going to be linked to what islands you have conquered... like every thing else". The same goes with multiplayer, if the difficulty of the island progression can be adjusted to the number of players (automatically or manual) it will also empower the multiplayer side. Nevertheless, there can always be a research method more akin to a mini game in which you have to discover (world seed dependent, maybe) the right amount of magic elements for the greatest effect. In this regard, it does not break the innate knowledge; you know how to do it, but not in an efficient way (similar with food and flavors in TFC1, the need of looking for the best food for you while knowing how to make food from the start).

Mmm, I was pretty sure that that was the objective, but searching the forums I could not find a clue. Anyway, "relative ease" depend on the player and skill level. I rarely reach colored steel because it is a lot of work, but if you have one or two friends, everything become incredible easy; exploration is faster, mining is faster, chopping wood is faster, getting food is faster. Dangerous mobs are not a problem in TFC1 for anyone with a bit of Minecraft experience, so you don't need to travel in packs or do the same thing together. In that regard, TFC1 is a bit more Multiplayer, not for how easy is to do things, but how fast you can do it. And grinding is a bit subjective, too.

No, no, an innate knowledge is a knowledge that you already know from birth (in Minecraft scenario, from spawn). For example, almost everything, if not everything, from TFC1 can be done if you have the tools and the material. You don't need to "waste" time researching it and/or finding the clues to begin the research. In TFC1 you know how to smelt, make alloys, tools, armors, etc the moment you spawn. The only thing that stop you to make colored steel armor from the get-go are tools and materials. In this perspective, your last question and mine is intertwined; you cannot have a distinct path if the know-how is innate. My point of view in this is that, though TFC2 is being design as a multiplayer add-on, a good portion of the playerbase is single player. No matter the system chosen (research or innate), it should have in mind that "multiplayer" means from 2 players onward, and some people enjoy the difficulty of being a solo player in TFC1 (I'm one of them). Therefore, at least the option of being an everyman should be a must, it does not matter if it is via more skill points per level, faster research time, or toggling off the research option. If TFC2 is going to be more oriented toward a fantasy setting, magic should be essential, even if it is just a tiny bit. A farmer might want a rune of water to expand the fields, a rune of healthy earth to speed farm production, a rune of magic earth to infuse some plants with magic for medicinal and/or alchemypurposes. A warrior might want a potion (and/or wand and/or gem) of invisibility, fast regeneration, fireproof, alchemical silver (or a magical sword +1) for those pesky damage resistant critters, etc. We can have magic gems to enhance mana recovery for wizards, empower their spells, make them cheaper, etc. For smithscan be rune of melting fire to replace wood, a rune of warm metal to keep the metal "warm" enough to smith, infuse magic to make magical alloys and mystical metals. And that is just a small sample of things that can be done. I don't think it should be an add-on to smithing, just an integral part of the gameplay, even if its simple and by any means complex. I mean, you can start using magic as a spell caster (simple mana bolts) to conquer the first island if you wish, later after conquering the second island, you can start making basic quality of life magic runes and gems, later more complex or magical intensive runes or rituals, and so on; the further you advance in the islands the better things you can make. In this last regard, I think that gating the progress of magic by resources found in more difficult island is a more natural and cohesive way and closer toTFC2 philosophy of progression than research or skill points (and for that mater, has the highestaffinity with innate magic knowledge).