Deepening Combat a Bit

[Lumireaver 101]

Over in Jed's fantastic Ranged Overhaul thread I got to thinking about precisely why combat in Minecraft is so very...less-than-engaging. I came to a surprisingly simple conclusion. Combat isn't engaging because the experience is largely the same regardless of what it is you're attacking. There are some differences between mobs, obviously, but even considering those, every time you engage a zombie all it's going to boil down to is whacking it until it's dead. Once you whack a spider or skeleton, they'll also be stun-locked until they're dead.

This isn't something RPG number crunching or elemental rock-paper-scissors can fix. It's not even something adding a ton of different weapons can fix. All any of that does is provide a momentary distraction from the actual problem... An attractive distraction, but a distraction nonetheless. (Just to be clear, I'm not against these things. They just don't fix anything on their own. Adding them on as a secondary layer of depth would probably be an interesting option afterwards...)

Here's a modified snip from the Ranged Overhaul thread...

In order to add a more strategic element, you need to slow things down and add deeper mechanics.

To start with, all mobs and weapons would be given multiple attacks (or functions, as with blocking...), and all attacks would take a brief moment to draw. While drawing, movement would be slowed down to sneaking speed. ...After the draw phase the attacker would actually preform their attack. Different attacks would have different draw durations as well as different tells.

I'm not exactly sure if we're keeping all of the vanilla mobs, but I'll go ahead and make examples out of them.

About startup...I'm not sure how timing is handled in Minecraft. Something about ticks? Anyway, short, medium and long durations would be approximately one, two, and three seconds respectively.

Spiders:

Forward Leap

Startup - Short

The spider leaps forward about four blocks, dealing damage to anything it comes into contact with.. (Increased to compensate for the startup time...)

Web Shot

Startup - Medium

Tell - While prepping this attack, white particles foam out of the spiders mouth area.

The spider fires a slow moving, low damage web-based projectile. On hit, the player is slowed briefly.

Zombies:

Zombie Lunge

Startup - Medium

Tell - A longer, drawn out groan...

An infrequent attack. After slowing to a crawl for a few brief seconds, zombies will speed up to just-a-bit-faster-than-walking speeds for about four seconds. Able to get multiple hits.

Zombie Grip

Startup - Medium

Tell - The zombie will raise his arms slightly higher...

When there are many zombies nearby a zombie will be more likely to use this attack. If it hits, you will be immobilized and vulnerable to attack until you escape. (Mash jump, and wiggle your mouse?) Deals some damage per second.

Skeletons:

...Arrow!

Startup - Short

The skeleton fires an arrow. ...With extreme prejudice.

...Three Arrows!?

Startup - Long

Tell - ...More than a second after the bow drawing sound effect.

The skeleton fires three arrows, one straight, and the other two off the sides. Maybe a flaming arrow is a better idea.

Player weapons could also function similarly. Upon initiating an attack, one would need to wait for the startup to finish...and only then their attack would initiate.

Swords:

Attack

Startup - Medium

The player swings their sword.

Block

Startup - Instant

The player holds their sword in a defensive stance to lower incoming damage.

Mace:

First Attack

Startup - Medium

After start up, the player takes a step forward while swinging their mace.

Second Attack

Startup - Medium

The player attacks in place.

...Yeah. :U

[Jed1314 420]

If this can be implemented, it has all of my +1's

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

all of mines too :3

[Lumireaver 101]

If this can be implemented, it has all of my +1's

Well Bioxx recently added PlayerAPI as a dependency, so...

To give you an idea of the kinds of things that should enable, check out the other mods that use it. :U

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

Honestly, I like the base concept, but not so much the specifics.

Of particular greivance is this startup time thing... especially because it takes place in fixed increments that change our battle system into turn based combat. If I wanted that, I'd play one of the many Final Fantasy games that I own.

If you MUST include this startup, which btw will make combat flow "Like a river of bricks" -Yahzee, at least make the times pseudorandom.

[Lumireaver 101]

- above post snip -

Yeah, I'm not keen on the numbers I used either. It feels to me like I'd need to see it in motion to get a better sense of just how long 'a couple of seconds' is when you're actually playing. I don't see how it would make combat feel turn based at all though. Please elaborate.

When you make the decision to turn and face an enemy as opposed to sprinting away. You'll most likely want to hover close, baiting an attack while being mindful of the enemy's range. Once you're sure you're safe, you would initiate an attack yourself. You can also try making the first attack yourself if you notice the mob is initiating an attack with a longer startup. Repeatedly attacking would most likely result in being countered. (Being attacked during startup could result in critical damage?) Throw in multiple mobs and the whole thing becomes much more frantic as you try an micromanage spacing, watching for different attacks, and dealing damage.

Pseudorandom timings are definitely a neat idea. They'd keep people on their toes. Just as long as certain attacks are consistently longer than others. Make things too random and actual combat experience will amount to nothing.

I was mostly trying to fall on fighting game logic. Not so much RPG logic. :U

[Jed1314 420]

Yeah, I'm not keen on the numbers I used either. It feels to me like I'd need to see it in motion to get a better sense of just how long 'a couple of seconds' is when you're actually playing. I don't see how it would make combat feel turn based at all though. Please elaborate.

When you make the decision to turn and face an enemy as opposed to sprinting away. You'll most likely want to hover close, baiting an attack while being mindful of the enemy's range. Once you're sure you're safe, you would initiate an attack yourself. You can also try making the first attack yourself if you notice the mob is initiating an attack with a longer startup. Repeatedly attacking would most likely result in being countered. (Being attacked during startup could result in critical damage?) Throw in multiple mobs and the whole thing becomes much more frantic as you try an micromanage spacing, watching for different attacks, and dealing damage.

Pseudorandom timings are definitely a neat idea. They'd keep people on their toes. Just as long as certain attacks are consistently longer than others. Make things too random and actual combat experience will amount to nothing.

I was mostly trying to fall on fighting game logic. Not so much RPG logic. :U

Could I recommend a possible inspiration for the type of combat you *may* be talking about. I was thinking a Mount + Blade style of combat, where the opponent "winds up" the attack and can release it at will, thus giving some skill to blocking. I actually modelled a lot of my ideas loosely around M+B's combat system

[Lumireaver 101]

- 'nother snip -

I've never actually seen Mount & Blade, but I just looked it up though, and it seems like a Dynasty Warriors kind of game. I'm not seeing how that works in a engine with a pace like Minecraft's. I guess allowing a mob to hold on to their attack after the startup until you're actually in-range for it would be alright. Logically that would make them harder to manage, even if it makes them more predictable. I don't know.

I was actually thinking of King's Field and Eternal Ring, and why combat occasionally feels so slow when I play them. :U

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

Eternal Ring

Jesus H., are you seriously telling me I'm not the only person on earth with that game?

Sweet.

Yeah, I'm not keen on the numbers I used either. It feels to me like I'd need to see it in motion to get a better sense of just how long 'a couple of seconds' is when you're actually playing. I don't see how it would make combat feel turn based at all though. Please elaborate.

Well think of it this way;

Steve - 2 second windup initiated

Skeleton - 1 second windup initiated

Skeleton - attack, 1 second windup initiated

Steve - attack, 2 second windup initiated

Skeleton - attack, 1 second windup initiated

Skeleton - attack, 1 second windup initiated

Steve - attack, 2 second windup initiated

Wash rinse repeat until I start coughing up blood in an effort to add any kind of semblance of believablity to that sticky and flow-free mess.

And that's assuming that being shot point-blank doesn't stun-lock your ass long enough to interrupt every single one of your toe curlingly slow attacks and leave you deader than Vince Offer's career.

[bsb23 303]

This is probably not one of my favorite ideas however I'm going to explain it anyways hopefully you are all familiar with the game infinity blade. This game is honestly fun for a while even though the story line is you slashing at people for several hours straight. The game feels more like you are actually wielding the sword. If we could make it so your sword would simply follow your mouse around you could have a lot of control over your weapons, fighting "styles" would emerge and button pressing frenzys would be a thing of the past. pressing the left button would name activate a thrust, the right would block similar to Wii Resorts fencing style. A stamina bar could be added to prevent it from becoming fruit ninja. We should make the mobs more powerful in their fighting techniques to offset this though.

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

This is probably not one of my favorite ideas however I'm going to explain it anyways hopefully you are all familiar with the game infinity blade. This game is honestly fun for a while even though the story line is you slashing at people for several hours straight. The game feels more like you are actually wielding the sword. If we could make it so your sword would simply follow your mouse around you could have a lot of control over your weapons, fighting "styles" would emerge and button pressing frenzys would be a thing of the past. pressing the left button would name activate a thrust, the right would block similar to Wii Resorts fencing style. A stamina bar could be added to prevent it from becoming fruit ninja. We should make the mobs more powerful in their fighting techniques to offset this though.

The problem you're gonna run into here is that unless you're playing this on a tablet, the combat is being controlled with the mouse, turning this into Alone In The Dark - a game with a TERRIBLE combat system.

[bsb23 303]

I see what your saying but that game appears just to be slapping, I was thinking more infinity blade, more control, more technique, more pressure, less slapping. Which lets be honest is the same as our combat system now except without the back and forth, we just have the forth.

[Jed1314 420]

I've never actually seen Mount & Blade, but I just looked it up though, and it seems like a Dynasty Warriors kind of game. I'm not seeing how that works in a engine with a pace like Minecraft's. I guess allowing a mob to hold on to their attack after the startup until you're actually in-range for it would be alright. Logically that would make them harder to manage, even if it makes them more predictable. I don't know.

I was actually thinking of King's Field and Eternal Ring, and why combat occasionally feels so slow when I play them. :U

I wouldn't say M+B was dynasty warriors esque ? It's played on the pc and I would say the pace is slower than minecraft is right now when playing. Kings Field and Eternal ring actually look like they have similar combat styles, albeit slowed down. I like the idea for sure, but it would need to be a bit faster paced than that for PvP, otherwise it is too easy to dodge attacks and player combat may turn into some kind of twisted, violent square dance :P

[Lumireaver 101]

Jesus H., are you seriously telling me I'm not the only person on earth with that game?

Sweet.

Well think of it this way;

- mini snip -

Wash rinse repeat until I start coughing up blood in an effort to add any kind of semblance of believablity to that sticky and flow-free mess.

And that's assuming that being shot point-blank doesn't stun-lock your ass long enough to interrupt every single one of your toe curlingly slow attacks and leave you deader than Vince Offer's career.

It's a damned good game considering how awful it is. :U

Yeah, I'm just not seeing what you're seeing. It might be just be some glaring flaw I can't sense at the moment. You wouldn't be anchored to the ground or anything and attacks would be initiated manually, so it's not like they wouldn't come in fixed intervals. (Though pseudo-random timing should help address that.) Though I'm still unsure about specific timings as I haven't really seen them in motion... (Here's an example, 20 ticks in a second...short timings aught to be something like 26-34 ticks, with medium trailing it ant 35-42, and long at 42-50, or thereabouts... Not sure if that's any better.) It'd be more like:

Steve initiates attack. Startup is 35 ticks.

Skeleton initiates attack. Startup is 26 ticks.

Steve, still in his startup phase slowly sidesteps away, dodging the arrow by a margin. Sword hits.

Cocky, Steve initiates attack again.

Skeleton initiates attack.

Steve was not mindful of his range, and has no room to dodge. Hit.

Steve makes distance between him and the skeleton to recollect himself.

Skeleton attacks twice during this period...

As far as believability goes, I'm pretty sure if you frantically waved your sword up and down like a magic wand when confronting the undead you wouldn't fare any better. :U

I wouldn't say M+B was dynasty warriors esque ? It's played on the pc and I would say the pace is slower than minecraft is right now when playing. Kings Field and Eternal ring actually look like they have similar combat styles, albeit slowed down. I like the idea for sure, but it would need to be a bit faster paced than that for PvP, otherwise it is too easy to dodge attacks and player combat may turn into some kind of twisted, violent square dance :P

To be fair, I hardly got to see anything. What sort gameplay does M&B offer? The menus and stuff looked interesting. :U

Yeah, PvP would be a little different with timings. I'm not sure if it would break the system though.

It could also be made so that on a successful block, the next startup is shortened by a couple of ticks. ...But then non-blocking weapons would need some kind of balanced benefit. ...Though the mace stepping forward does a (half) good job of that by allowing a player to startup an attack from a safer range. As long as blocks didn't cancel startups, that might work. It's second attack could have a slightly longer startup and break guards? :U

[Jed1314 420]

To be fair, I hardly got to see anything. What sort gameplay does M&B offer? The menus and stuff looked interesting. :U

Yeah, PvP would be a little different with timings. I'm not sure if it would break the system though.

It could also be made so that on a successful block, the next startup is shortened by a couple of ticks. ...But then non-blocking weapons would need some kind of balanced benefit. ...Though the mace stepping forward does a (half) good job of that by allowing a player to startup an attack from a safer range. As long as blocks didn't cancel startups, that might work. It's second attack could have a slightly longer startup and break guards? :U

It's a third person rpg/strategy/combat game set in a fictional reigion in the *roughly* middle ages

In terms of combat gameplay, it's actually quite complex

You choose the direction you attack from (either left, right, above or a stab) with the mouse position on the screen Ie.g. if your mouse is to the left of the reticule and you click, you attack from the left, if it is above the reticule you attack from above etc.) and the attack takes like <1 second to wind up, then you can release it at will (or you can release it instantly by not holding the left mouse button when you click in the first place). You can also block, either using a shield or your weapon, but if you are using a weapon you have to block in the direction the attack is coming in from, otherwise they just hit you

You can also kick opponents, which stuns them if they don't block it.

There is also bows, crossbows and a wide array of throwing weapons, which have an interesting system where the reticule is initially wide as you pull back for the "power stroke", it then dials in to it's normal size, however, if you wait too long it expands slightly, lowering accuracy.

All in all it's easily the best (and most realistic) combat system I've ever seen in a game

You can also recruit troops to fight with you and all kind of other stuff that isn't relevant to this topic

i see, in an elder scrolls esque "power attack" system, where more charged attacks can break blocks ?

The real difficulty is balancing online combat, which has to be reasonably fast paced otherwise it is too easy for people to counter each other, and offline play (which has to be made more difficult because once you get a sword and some armor the night is like a pleasant stroll in the park)

(Seriously though, if you like reasonably fast paced, challenging, medieval combat games, M + B is worth a look, it's a bit like playing TES on steroids with no magic and extra servings of brutality )