water physics/systems

[pop1040 13]

I have a suggestion

My Idea is that you could Implement the finite water mods physics for water and lava and then make it so that any water with a line-of-sight to the sky will slowly evaporate(dependent on the biome) and will increase the water vapor level of the chunk which will determine the amount of cloud that is displayed and eventually, when the vapor level is high enough in the chunk(also dependent on the biome), It will start to rain until the vapor level is low enough. The vapor level will also spread in the same way the water does so that random chunks aren't raining while others aren't(maybe you could also implement the tornado mod and use the wind physics to determine vapor spread(because of clouds being blown around))

Like my Idea?

--pop1040

Ps. Rain would have to spawn random small amounts of water and lower the vapor level at the same time so that water stays there and never runs out. Maybe large amounts of water could push on surrounding blocks and if enough force is applied(dependent on the block's hardness), you could use the tornado mods physics to have blocks pushed out or washed down stream so that rivers would actually flow and new ones created and houses could be flooded or the roofs could actually collapse and people could make dams and have to make sloped roofs ect...

Just an idea and I think that the first part actually wouldn't be too hard.

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

Not too bad an idea for a first post - I'm rather impressed.

However, this would be a bitch and a half to code, for what would ostensibly be - and let's be reasonable about this - a feature people will notice once, go 'Huh. That's actually pretty damn cool.", and then never think about again.

Perhaps once some more core features have been fleshed out and the dev team has some time to dick around a bit, a water cycle can be added. Until then though, I think this would get put on the furthest back burner possible, if it's even considered at all.

[bsb23 303]

That would be awesome but we got to implement finite liquids first as soon as that happens I don't know why the top half would be to hard to do although recoding tornado mod would probably take a lot of work although would still kick butt.

[pop1040 13]

@EternalUndeath

having chunks having a vapor level and it spreading wouldn't be to hard (thaumcraft does it with vis/taint) but the water code might be a little bit of a pain and evaporation isn't two hard, just a line-of sight to the sky and raining would be a pain but the rest would be vary difficult but I do have some ideas as how to do the background coding speaking as a coder myself so I can agree with you on the last part but I don't see to much of a rode block on the first part

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

Here's the thing - Everyone keeps saying 'Oh it's not too hard to code, Mod X managed it' about many a thing on this forum.

HOWEVER

That feature is usually a large core part of Mod X, which is usually a mod in its 2nd or 3rd incarnation and has taken months if not years to complete.

To use the vis example, a chunk's aura rating is a very integral part of Thaumcraft 2, and quite frankly that took practically fucking forever to come out. TFcraft is a mod that has ended up sharing core mechanics really with several other rather complex mods, so please remember everyone that next time you say 'Well Mod X did it', that Bioxx has already incorporated massive features it shares in common with mods Y Z and Q, all of which took several weeks of dedicated work to write in, and that even just adding in a new block can require dozens of lines of code and perhaps even a new class file in the .jar if it does something really unique.

Then add to that the fact that this is ALL original and coded from scratch, because other mod authors don't take kindly to having their work choppied and copied shamelessly. You know how bioxx added aspects of finite water? Well he didn't get to just decompile the finite water mod and ctrl+c ctrl+v it into TFC - he had to take the concept, and re write the entire thing over, making sure it didn't match to the original mod's code too closely. (though I'm pulling the finite water example out of my ass - if he got the mod authors permission to copy paste then that's cool and all - but my point still stands for all the other aspects)

So the fact that another mod pulled it off successfully does NOT mean that adding it to TFC will be easy - it only means that it's possible. Bioxx can't just use other mod's source code, he can only take them as a proof of concept.

Edit:

Oh and I should probly let you know - 'Thaumcraft' is a dirty word around these forums. Just making you aware.

[pop1040 13]

I'm not trying to make it sound like you press this button and that one and your done, I'm just saying that it would probably take the same amount of time as alot of other coding takes witch is weeks or months and that I only ever thought the first part would ever be implemented and the last part is more of a fantasy than anything else and that I know alot of this code already and would be willing to help with my knowledge and ideas. for example, I wrote a water simulator along time ago in java and I could submit some of its code/concepts for water stuff. I'm just saying I understand what you mean like my mod has some issues with slimier code to steve's carts and I have to change things. sorry to get you mad

ps glad you notified me about that mods issues on this fourm, I'm new here

[ancientpower 32]

TFC already has finite liquids and rain filling small holes. Vapor, dynamic clouds, and physics changes are completely over the top and unnecessary, not to mention they add zero gameplay value. Sure, it would be cool. It's just not something worth adding though.

[pop1040 13]

actually it would add a reason to make drainage canals and to be carfull about conserving water but this is my opinion

[ancientpower 32]

actually it would add a reason to make drainage canals and to be carfull about conserving water but this is my opinion

That's a hella lot of effort though, and making the player work to conserve water and build drainage systems kind of seems boring and grindey to me.

[mrpwase 66]

Edit:

Oh and I should probly let you know - 'Thaumcraft' is a dirty word around these forums. Just making you aware.

Why?

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

Why?

1) this mod is about believability, and while TC2 does suspend disbelief in its own context, comparing any of its mechanics with TFC shatters that like a kneecap under a brooklyn slugger

2) EVERYONE uses it for comparisons because it's popular and visually appealing. Too much of what was never even a good thing to begin with.

[Jasnatdic 85]

The most substantial problem with finite liquids is that it pretty much cripples even the most stout of servers. I tested a previous version of the Finite Liquid mod by Djoslin that had been ported for smp, and while its true that the ported code probably wasnt optimized, breaking into a chasm from say an infinite ocean block would slow things significantly.

It would be more than awesome to have liquid be finite across the whole world map in TFC, and have evaporation, and rain; Thus requiring things like proper drainage and so on, but becides the codeing aspect of it the effects on the world when large bodies of liquid settle it would just feast on the cpu cycles of the host machine. Not to even mention the net updates from server to client, they are already like 200-400kbps to each and every client.

[pop1040 13]

here is an idea for a less dynamic version of the second part, every water block would look to see if any solid blocks are next to it and if there are, it would check to see what its "force vector" is which would be a vector that's pointing strait down and its force is dependent on how much water is above the water block. Then the "force vector" would be offset by the water flow measured above it and the more flow, the more the force vector is offset. Then it would look at the blocks in front of the vector and next to it and see if it had any space in front of the blocks(relative to the vector) and if so, it would generate a random number(float or double) between 0 and 1and if the number is less than a value determined by the ratio between the vectors force and the block's hardness(on a random tick update like saplings), the bock would be turned into an entity like falling sand and gravel does and that entity would be given the initial velocity of the vector and this overall would create quite a challenge of avoiding structure from being eroded away and challenge of making any structure where water flows

btw my initial idea with a water cycle thing would just be so that rivers and such like would actually flow without filling up the world with water creating a dynamic environment in which things like this can happen

[pop1040 13]

@Jasnatdic

you could optimism so only water blocks touching more that water such as air or rock or dirt would be the only things simulated which might help

also, you could put a option in a config file that would say something like:

advancedphysics = false

# this option when set to true will enable dynamic physics such as erosion

#WARNING: do not enable unless you have a beast computer or are willing to risk melting down your computer

#into the sort of thing they probably make lucky charms out of

[kotoroshinoto 97]

Honestly, the djoslin engine wasn't so bad most of the time, and i'm sure that certain things could be optimized with a slightly greedy algorithm rather than a fully-calculated proper simulation. (likely you've already tried this but haven't hit on quite the best optimization.)

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

here is an idea for a less dynamic version of the second part, every water block would look to see if any solid blocks are next to it and if there are, it would check to see what its "force vector" is which would be a vector that's pointing strait down and its force is dependent on how much water is above the water block. Then the "force vector" would be offset by the water flow measured above it and the more flow, the more the force vector is offset. Then it would look at the blocks in front of the vector and next to it and see if it had any space in front of the blocks(relative to the vector) and if so, it would generate a random number(float or double) between 0 and 1and if the number is less than a value determined by the ratio between the vectors force and the block's hardness(on a random tick update like saplings), the bock would be turned into an entity like falling sand and gravel does and that entity would be given the initial velocity of the vector and this overall would create quite a challenge of avoiding structure from being eroded away and challenge of making any structure where water flows

btw my initial idea with a water cycle thing would just be so that rivers and such like would actually flow without filling up the world with water creating a dynamic environment in which things like this can happen

Jesus dude, now we're getting into vectors?

Look, Bioxx and co. will get to this if they like it and end up with some free time. I actually liked your initial suggestion better, and feel that it's A-ok as is without the need for refinement. I just think that it's something that'll have to wait until a lull in development of other, more important things.

@Jasnatdic

you could optimism so only water blocks touching more that water such as air or rock or dirt would be the only things simulated which might help

also, you could put a option in a config file that would say something like:

advancedphysics = false

# this option when set to true will enable dynamic physics such as erosion

#WARNING: do not enable unless you have a beast computer or are willing to risk melting down your computer

#into the sort of thing they probably make lucky charms out of

...Wat.

English ************, do you speak it?

[ancientpower 32]

Not everything that isn't hyper-realistic is bad.

On another note, these advanced physics ideas are cool, but you have to think about how they would actually play out. Having to deal with all of this would just be a pain to manage ingame, not to mention a pain to implement, balance, and debug. A system like this isn't going to easily come out flawlessly.

[mrpwase 66]

1) this mod is about believability, and while TC2 does suspend disbelief in its own context, comparing any of its mechanics with TFC shatters that like a kneecap under a brooklyn slugger

2) EVERYONE uses it for comparisons because it's popular and visually appealing. Too much of what was never even a good thing to begin with.

No, sorry, I'm still not seeing why this means Thaumcraft is a 'dirty word around these forums'. If there's a good idea in Thaumcraft and it can be adapted and implemented in TFC, then what's the problem?

I should imagine everyone uses it for comparisons because it's a well-made mod that's fun to play.

If the dev team have the time and inclination to make a water cycle system, and they find a system similar to the vis/taint system in TC would be a good way to implement it in TFC, then what's the problem? It's a cool idea and I think it would add to the feel of the mod.

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

No, sorry, I'm still not seeing why this means Thaumcraft is a 'dirty word around these forums'. If there's a good idea in Thaumcraft and it can be adapted and implemented in TFC, then what's the problem?

I should imagine everyone uses it for comparisons because it's a well-made mod that's fun to play.

If the dev team have the time and inclination to make a water cycle system, and they find a system similar to the vis/taint system in TC would be a good way to implement it in TFC, then what's the problem? It's a cool idea and I think it would add to the feel of the mod.

I'll let Lumireaver find this thread and explain it, he's better at explaining why we don't really say the T word.

As for the vis system, Bioxx can't just see how Azanor implemented it and 'think it's a good idea'. Bioxx can't see how it was implemented at all. All Bioxx can do is play the mod, think of how it COULD have been implemented, and then use that as inspiration for an entirely new system. Unless he gets Azanor's permission, he can't just decompile the code and browse through it for mechanics to dump into TFC.

[mrpwase 66]

What I meant was that a chunk's vapour level could be structured in a similar way to the way vis/taint is structured in TC, which is what pop1040 said. I'm not saying the dev team should use the same code or whatever. Sorry if I was unclear.

And I don't care about petty inter-mod rivalry or whatever this is, as far as I can see Thaumcraft is a professional mod that people enjoy playing. You might as well complain about the Technic pack.

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

What I meant was that a chunk's vapour level could be structured in a similar way to the way vis/taint is structured in TC, which is what pop1040 said. I'm not saying the dev team should use the same code or whatever. Sorry if I was unclear.

And I don't care about petty inter-mod rivalry or whatever this is, as far as I can see Thaumcraft is a professional mod that people enjoy playing. You might as well complain about the Technic pack.

I have, and at length, though for very different reasons.

And it's not rivalry, people make money off of this shit through adfly. If someone steals your code that YOU spend months wracking your brain over, and makes money off of it, you have 100% absolutely every right to get your nark on. And even if they don't make money it's still a douche move worthy of Summer's Eve.

And yes, it is a VERY good mod. An EXCELLENT mod. I'm actually running an LP on youtube featuring it right now. However, it does not really have a place on these forums.

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

Wasn't the T word a dirty word because TFC and TC2 are complete opposites? i mean, Thaumcraft is about magic -i think, i didn't ever seen it ._.- and Terrafirmacraft is about realism believability...

And about the suggestion, i do like it, but i think it's not something really necesary... It's something that would be nice, but doesn't seem to have a gameplay value at all. You could say that with it, you have to be careful because your house may flood if the roof is plain, but ever since we are talking about a game of cubic blocks, it would be difficult for it to not be plain... so, it would be just another pain in the ass.

[mrpwase 66]

I have, and at length, though for very different reasons.

And it's not rivalry, people make money off of this shit through adfly. If someone steals your code that YOU spend months wracking your brain over, and makes money off of it, you have 100% absolutely every right to get your nark on. And even if they don't make money it's still a douche move worthy of Summer's Eve.

And yes, it is a VERY good mod. An EXCELLENT mod. I'm actually running an LP on youtube featuring it right now. However, it does not really have a place on these forums.

Haha, ok dude, have it your way. I won't mention Thaumcraft ever again!

And about the suggestion, i do like it, but i think it's not something really necesary... It's something that would be nice, but doesn't seem to have a gameplay value at all. You could say that with it, you have to be careful because your house may flood if the roof is plain, but ever since we are talking about a game of cubic blocks, it would be difficult for it to not be plain... so, it would be just another pain in the ass.

I'd say there's quite a bit of stuff in Minecraft generally that isn't really necessary. Coloured wool blocks, different types of wood, flowers etc. It just helps add atmosphere and something nice to look at/interact with. Clearly it isn't a priority, but I do like the idea of dynamic weather as suggested.

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

I'd say there's quite a bit of stuff in Minecraft generally that isn't really necessary. Coloured wool blocks, different types of wood, flowers etc. It just helps add atmosphere and something nice to look at/interact with. Clearly it isn't a priority, but I do like the idea of dynamic weather as suggested.

You got a point there. Though, if we talk about TFC, the different types of wood are a little important -for the burning temperature, and so on-

[pop1040 13]

as mrpwase said, I just mean the concept of chunk based values that even out with each other, not copying code and, you have to admit, the idea of a dam bursting and water taking out buildings as it surges down hill is pretty dam cool and I just think it might just be worth the pain-in-the-ass it would be to code and to implement it into the game

btw English is my only language and I'm just imitating all the other config files I've ever seen and that seems about how its done