That Damage Discussion: Round 16

[Menoch 335]

I agree that a click fest is in no way awesome combat for someone that desires strategy and meaning in said gameplay. But the sheer fact that the core of this mod which is indeed Minecraft, was never developed to be a strategic fencing battle sim or any type of battle sim other than that which was already pointed out. The character as a whole is a hit box. Any tool or weapon or fist coming into contact with that hit box will do damage in a very plain, no frills way.

The only way to alleviate this problem would be to take into consideration that your target for all intensive purposes is a moving one. Swinging a melee weapon at a moving target gives opportunity for a miss. Any weighted weapon with a balance not fixed to one's center of gravity will create a momentum which must be countered in order to either recover or maintain fluidity of movement.

In short, if you swing a mace at someones skull and miss, you might just be a sitting duck.

So missing a target in melee combat could trigger a delay in the attackers recover and ability to get off the next swing.

Food for thought, but...

Since we are in hit box central i would agree with different damage types for different weapon types, but i would also submit that said implimentation would only, and fairly, warrant different armor protection factors.

Yes a lead pipe does extensive damage, however moreso across the chest of someone wearing chainmail than someone wearing plate hauberk. And on that note, arrows were known to penetrate a plate hauberk since it is rigid and not flexible, yet chainmail is moreso forgiving under such force. a sword slash or even jab to chainmesh could be detered by the composition of the interwoven rings.

To allot damage factors to weapons based on composition, type, and weight would be awesome and i think the idea is great, but edged, piercing, and bludgeoning weapons each have a strength and a weakness, and that depends on what your target is wearing.

I think that combat has a higher level in tfc.

The hitbox simplicity of it could be countermeasured with giving each weapon a damage type.

Each piece of armor has 3 protection types: protection against edge, pierce, and blunt.

The entire suit of armor or piecemail suit worn will dictate the total protection against each type of weapon damage.

A hotkey can be used to show a players protection % in each area.

...

I hate typing on ipods!

[ECC 508]

Each piece of armor has 3 protection types: protection against edge, pierce, and blunt.

dunk and POSSIBLY bioxx(not sure, have not asked directly yet) does not like walls of text... let us make a new topic concerning armor. again, I want to get base damage down first before discussing the different between blunt and slash and how pierce IS slash, just more direct.

also want to have damage debuffs handled yet again seperatly(bleading n stuff) as well as even blocking

[Pakislav 120]

Pierce a slash?... wut?

[Menoch 335]

Each piece of armor has 3 protection types: protection against edge, pierce, and blunt.

I want to get base damage down first before discussing the different between blunt and slash and how pierce IS slash, just more direct.

My input was a 230 am idea that kept me up after having read it. So wall or not i had to put it down.

But much to my confusion is how slash IS pierce? Pierce punctures. Slash cuts. One is a poking action, the other a "pulling across" action.

[Pakislav 120]

Exactly... by the logic that a pierce is a slash, a slash is blunt and blunt is a pierce on bigger surface...

There's a reason we call them differently.

[ECC 508]

technically, they are all the same, just different methods of application. force over area and area over direction. the differentiation in a game was to separate it into the most advanced yet still simple method. blunt and slash(weight and edge as I called it in the OP)

not exactly explaining this right I think

[Pakislav 120]

Oh, I see now how a pierce could be considered a 'slash' by that logic, but I think you just shouldn't mention piercing at all instead xd

[Menoch 335]

So would arrows, javelins, daggers and crossbow bolts be considered slash or bludgeoning? You mention you want to keep it simple, but the first post of this thread suggests otherwise.

Do you want to make it believable? If so, piercing weapons are not measured by surface covered either by cutting or impact, but internal distance and trauma. To exempt the one you might as well just call all weapons, swords, axes, clubs, and arrows trauma damage and be done with it. However each weapon field does serve a purpose, and should be taken into consideration. And since this thread is about damage, then the mitigation of said damage might as well be covered here.

And to say that lighter metals should not be used in heavy weapons could be easily ill conceived as well, since bronze, being a copper based alloy, is generally heavier than steel.

A weapons durability should not only be measured by the weapon type, but also its composition. Just because a mace is thicker than a sword of the same material does not mean its molecular composition is any different. And bronze being heavier than steel does not mean it should have a higher durability since bronze is far more brittle than steel.

ECC, i totally respect your post, and i think you are onto something, but there are many other areas that need to be touched on as far as damage goes. To simply implement damage and damaging factors on weapons and tools without considering the other side of the spectrum (armor) in a whole would be like creating a bullet without having a gun from which to fire it.

[junweizhu 12]

I agree that a click fest is in no way awesome combat for someone that desires strategy and meaning in said gameplay. But the sheer fact that the core of this mod which is indeed Minecraft, was never developed to be a strategic fencing battle sim or any type of battle sim other than that which was already pointed out. The character as a whole is a hit box. Any tool or weapon or fist coming into contact with that hit box will do damage in a very plain, no frills way.

The only way to alleviate this problem would be to take into consideration that your target for all intensive purposes is a moving one. Swinging a melee weapon at a moving target gives opportunity for a miss. Any weighted weapon with a balance not fixed to one's center of gravity will create a momentum which must be countered in order to either recover or maintain fluidity of movement.

In short, if you swing a mace at someones skull and miss, you might just be a sitting duck.

So missing a target in melee combat could trigger a delay in the attackers recover and ability to get off the next swing.

Food for thought, but...

Since we are in hit box central i would agree with different damage types for different weapon types, but i would also submit that said implimentation would only, and fairly, warrant different armor protection factors.

Yes a lead pipe does extensive damage, however moreso across the chest of someone wearing chainmail than someone wearing plate hauberk. And on that note, arrows were known to penetrate a plate hauberk since it is rigid and not flexible, yet chainmail is moreso forgiving under such force. a sword slash or even jab to chainmesh could be detered by the composition of the interwoven rings.

To allot damage factors to weapons based on composition, type, and weight would be awesome and i think the idea is great, but edged, piercing, and bludgeoning weapons each have a strength and a weakness, and that depends on what your target is wearing.

I think that combat has a higher level in tfc.

The hitbox simplicity of it could be countermeasured with giving each weapon a damage type.

Each piece of armor has 3 protection types: protection against edge, pierce, and blunt.

The entire suit of armor or piecemail suit worn will dictate the total protection against each type of weapon damage.

A hotkey can be used to show a players protection % in each area.

...

I hate typing on ipods!

I've always thought it might be better to change the weapon's left click into something similar to how bows work when right-clicking; Holding the left click with a weapon will have it move more to the back to increase the power you can put into your weapon when swinging. Of course, after swinging you need time to recover and move your weapon back of course, like you would irl.

The effect and speed of this charge will depend on the weapon's size and weight to calculate its possible damage.

Light and small weapons gain more power in the first part of the charge, but the gain will become less and less after that(something along the lines of a square root graph)

Heavy and large weapons will charge slower, but the power will increase exponentially the longer you hold up until a max.

This will make both heavy and lightweight weapons just as useful and believable at the same time and it will also make you think what weapon to use at what job.

I think someone might have already suggested something like this but I'm not too sure. Might not be the best suggestion about this, but I think it's at least better than vanilla's current fighting mechanics.

Didn't feel like creating a larger post because too lazy and tired, but this is what I'm thinking about ever since reading those combat overhauls.

[killster550 401]

thought it'd be interesting to load this in here, looks like this mod got its hitboxes set up semi-correct

[ECC 508]

'like creating a bullet without having a gun from which to fire it.'

from wikipedia: 'The history of bullets far predates the history of firearms.'

Yes, I took my time to respond on this because I had to find this quote ;P

actually no, I didn't have the time to respond :/

I see your point, however I again wanted to separate this all. I have actually thought out the entire system and this particular topic was about the weapons only. Armor I feel is harder to implement when it comes to implementing stats like this(other then that really insignificant speed debuff EVERYONE seems to insist on having......)

the basis of my thinking with armor is that armor acts like a weapon does to armor. when a weapon deals damage to armor, the armor deals damage to the weapon. a tin sword will snap when hitting red steel and break and the idea behind breaking is it will do no damage if it breaks. why? well in the real world this does not cut it, but this is a game and I want people to think things though and no damage when a tool breaks feels like the erfect balancing agent against pvp. that is the underlying thought behind armor. there are a few others involving chain vs plate vs hybrid and hide based which for the purpose of this thread I will not go into as I am still Thinking.