Encouraging specialization

[Kimbblesrath 503]

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

*Wolf hides in achartran's basement* Oh, nice! There's a Sherlock here! Maybe he can help with this mystery.

Why the AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!? Sherlock, come on!

EDIT: It happened..to me too. Oh no!, and right when I said it doesn't happen to me....

[LordOfWolves 514]

Why the AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!?

It's a shout that someone makes when scared.

[Kimbblesrath 503]

It's a shout that someone makes when scared.

I was wondering if there was any special reason for it, but good answer *claps*

[transcengopher 349]

Wth.

[LordOfWolves 514]

Wth.

*Wolf looks at the drake* This dragon seems suffering from a severe form of rabies.

[Kimbblesrath 503]

*Wolf looks at the drake* This dragon seems suffering from a severe form of Venom/Oppugnate d'Arcus Pluvius.

[dockwithme 76]

Phew, this is gonna be long. I'm hitting all avenues on this one...

Skill-based specialization: So, (from what I hear here) I know that Bioxx and Dunk don't want to have RPG/skill-based elements in the game, but it seems like this would be a great way to handle things like this. If I'm a lumberjack, and I chop down trees all day, shouldn't I be faster at doing it than someone who doesn't chop down tress? If we both pick up the same metal axe and start swinging, I'd be pretty pissed if someone else could do it just as fast as I could. A good balance then would be to have skills being used raise, and skills not being used decrease. That in itself would breed specialization. Though it also doesn't pigeon-hole people into a job; if you want to mine instead, go for it, you just won't be as fast as someone who has been mining for the past few months... And don't give me that bullcrap, 'We'll I'm an awesome person and I can mine and farm and chop down trees like a legendary myth!" because let's face it, few people IRL are masters at many jobs. The only way to be a master at something is to do it all the time - people can be decent at many things by balancing out the time they spend, but they will never be the at the highest level unless they commit to it. AGAIN, I'M NOT SUGGESTING THIS SINCE APPARENTLY THE DEVS DON'T WANT SKILL-BASED GAMEPLAY, BUT I STILL BELIEVE THIS WOULD WORK (and be fun!).

Note: The above would also be a great way to implement death penalties, as when you die, you also loose some (or all) of you skills.

Chores vs. Jobs: Not to offend anyone IRL, but maybe let's take a new look at these 'jobs.' Maybe let's say chopping trees is more of a chore than a job. If we look at it that way, no one should be specializing in a chore. Everyone should be able to chop down a tree equally well. Other things like PLANTING seeds is a chore; although you could argue that harvesting can be a skilled job: the better you are, the more you can harvest. For mining, I can see this both ways. Anyone can just pick away at rocks, but a more experienced miner will cause way less cave-ins. As for prospecting, that has proven itself as a purely skill-based job and I really like how it works in-game now. Mining ore when you find it, should also be skill-based: better = more ore. Smithing has a great start as a skill-based job as well, where the better you are, the more durability your items have.

So I think we could ignore the CHORES in terms of specialization because they require no skill - let everyone do them. They are boring and no one wants to be 'the guy who chops down tress.' If you need some logs, go chop down a tree, no big deal. But if you need some crops - get the farmer: he will get you way more out of that plant than you could. If you need some armor - ask the metal-smith: he will make way better armor than you can.

Ideas for skills (adding mini-game-like activities): For chopping wood: what if you when chopped down the tree, it brought up a small mini-game. Something quick, like how the smithing works. Here is where you would be 'cutting' up the tree into logs. (Here is where the skill comes in). The better at the mini-game you are, the more logs this tree produces. It's actually the same concept used with chopping logs into planks where the saw (the better tool) creates more planks. Only here, the better you are the game, the more logs you get. For mining ore: Same concept; add a mini-game when mining ore to determine how many ore pieces you get.

In the end, the real problem is how to add SPECIALIZED ACTIVITIES that require that extra work mastering mini-games (that's all smithing is: a really well-balanced mini-game -- Hell, I don't consider it a mini-game when I play it). The balancing all comes down to making it usable by people who DON'T know what they're doing, but also master-able by people and giving them bonuses for doing so.

Ugh, I don't even know anymore...

[killster550 401]

you lost me at the minigames, because it'd make minecraft into puzzle pirates, GUI ALL THE THINGS style is no gameplay, it needs to remain flowing.

although i agree with the top idea actually just make the differences not overtly obvious, but subtle, like a maximum of 10% or 20% increase in speed, while the non used skills degrade by 1% for each passing day

[dockwithme 76]

you lost me at the minigames, because it'd make minecraft into puzzle pirates, GUI ALL THE THINGS style is no gameplay, it needs to remain flowing.

although i agree with the top idea actually just make the differences not overtly obvious, but subtle, like a maximum of 10% or 20% increase in speed, while the non used skills degrade by 1% for each passing day

I do think that style of game play where you more you do/use something, the better/faster you get at it. If you don't use it, it slowly degrade (much like IRL).

Yea by mini-game, I really mean like how the smithing works (I did have that in there somewhere among those lines and lines of text.... ugh). It's more like a small task to complete --> something that requires attention/strategy in order to complete. That way, people can't mindlessly do it, and the people that spend time on it get better (and faster) at completing the task.

[killster550 401]

I do think that style of game play where you more you do/use something, the better/faster you get at it. If you don't use it, it slowly degrade (much like IRL).

Yea by mini-game, I really mean like how the smithing works (I did have that in there somewhere among those lines and lines of text.... ugh). It's more like a small task to complete --> something that requires attention/strategy in order to complete. That way, people can't mindlessly do it, and the people that spend time on it get better (and faster) at completing the task.

like i said, using a interface (GUI = graphical user interface) for every single thing would nuke the meaning of flowing gameplay, because every time you click, you freeze and have to complete some minigame, which will not work.

[dockwithme 76]

like i said, using a interface (GUI = graphical user interface) for every single thing would nuke the meaning of flowing gameplay, because every time you click, you freeze and have to complete some minigame, which will not work.

Welcome to the new age of technology where we can do whatever we want! Let you mind go free! Ok that was lame. How about a minigame that requires no GUI, something in the world - nah - on the actual block you are working, that serves as the minigame. A special kind of movement pattern, combination, etc. Someone said something like in this thread right? It could be interrupted without penalty (much how everything else does - mining/chopping down trees) which would eliminate you being attacked while working. I can see this for mining ore, but hmm.. I don't know exactly what combination of movements could be useful for chopping down trees. It would be great also if you could just take the low road and mine/chop normally, receive the minimum harvest. But if you took the (short) time to do this action, you receive more for your efforts.

Just throwing ideas out there.

[killster550 401]

dockwithme, read my completely misplaced topic on force

i had a idea while typing my answer so i made a topic on it as a suggestion, in the discussion forum ;(

[Jerigord 7]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm not sure how to encourage specialization without some sort of skill-based aspect to it, either through a skill system in game or minigames that require player skill. Right now on my server, I've been trading with another guy for a while, but the trades have always been awkward. I'm trying to trade for his old wrought iron anvil so I don't have to make one. Unfortunately, I'm having a hard time finding anything to offer because he can do everything I can just as well. We both have equal access to minerals, crops, fruit trees, stone, etc. We can both mine and chop wood at the same rate, so I can't offer him time. The only thing I've been able to offer thus far has been charcoal because he doesn't like making it.

The problem with a lack of support for specialization within the game is that there's no way to differentiate oneself - to make a name in some given trade. Recognition comes from having a skill, talent, or ability that few others have. While vastly improved from vanilla Minecraft, TFC is still largely homogeneous in terms of what its players can accomplish, which limits the ability to create a diverse community. In other words, there's no incentive to work together because everyone can do everything just as well themselves; the only difference is the amount of time we can spend playing the game. In a close knit group of friends, this can be overcome to an extent, but a server of people who don't know each other well or only casually at best, distrust means that isolation is often safer and more productive since you can do everything yourself. This has been stated before, so I'll try not to rehash it much.

Dock's post above, while lengthy, does hit on the important points. If there's some way I can be better at wood cutting or charcoal making than my iron anvil owning neighbor, then I suddenly do have a skill I can market and trade against. I think that accomplishing this through an in game skill system or tree is the most flexible and natural, but there has been hesitance to this. Personally, I'm not a fan of the minigame based system, but it does solve this problem as well by putting the emphasis on player skill rather than character skill. But without something to artificially impart a skill aspect to this, I don't think the mod is going to evolve any sort of specialization or community aspect to it. There's simply too little payoff compared to the loss of independence and safety that playing solo can bring.

[dockwithme 76]

EDIT: FML, THIS IS THE DISCUSSION FORUM....dunk would you kindly move this to the suggestions forum? ;D

So i was discussing the minigame thing with dockwithme on the specializations topic, and i came to an epiphany. (shoot me if i spell it wrong, i just resurrect anyway )

in many a game there is the instant click and it happens like vanilla minecraft, but in some games there is the usage of force behind your swing which you have to time yourself.

if we would apply this to TFC, we could employ a minigame-ish type of playing which makes you swing the axe at a certain force for maximum effect, allowing trees to be cut down at varying speeds. (no, not with a GUI, you guys are better at fleshing stuff out than i am so go ahead)

this same thing could apply for fishing, combat, and mining, par example: if you hit the sweet spot on a specific rock, it'd pop out the block next to it as well, or if you get the right force behind your swing, you do extra damage. (and no, i dont mean use max force always)

in the usage: if you hold down the left mouse button, you charge up the force, release and it chops. this could also replace trees as a set of blocks to a full scale tree with varying gradations of being chopped down (that dont regenerate, so it'd actually be like 10 seperate entities, 1 through to 10/10 chopped )

oh, and for those that snipe me without mentioning why, your name will be written down in this book 3;)

There's your post, Killster550. I like these ideas. I can see a timing aspect come out of this, which I think could be cool. Wind up a swing, let go and hit at the right spot with the right momentum = best possible outcome. Of course, if you were better at timing than me, and had practiced it a lot more, you would be gathering more material than I would be. I kinda like it... But it all lies on how well it can be implemented in-game...

Quoting Jerigod here:

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm not sure how to encourage specialization without some sort of skill-based aspect to it, either through a skill system in game or minigames that require player skill. Right now on my server, I've been trading with another guy for a while, but the trades have always been awkward. I'm trying to trade for his old wrought iron anvil so I don't have to make one. Unfortunately, I'm having a hard time finding anything to offer because he can do everything I can just as well. We both have equal access to minerals, crops, fruit trees, stone, etc. We can both mine and chop wood at the same rate, so I can't offer him time. The only thing I've been able to offer thus far has been charcoal because he doesn't like making it.

The problem with a lack of support for specialization within the game is that there's no way to differentiate oneself - to make a name in some given trade. Recognition comes from having a skill, talent, or ability that few others have. While vastly improved from vanilla Minecraft, TFC is still largely homogeneous in terms of what its players can accomplish, which limits the ability to create a diverse community. In other words, there's no incentive to work together because everyone can do everything just as well themselves; the only difference is the amount of time we can spend playing the game. In a close knit group of friends, this can be overcome to an extent, but a server of people who don't know each other well or only casually at best, distrust means that isolation is often safer and more productive since you can do everything yourself. This has been stated before, so I'll try not to rehash it much.

Dock's post above, while lengthy, does hit on the important points. If there's some way I can be better at wood cutting or charcoal making than my iron anvil owning neighbor, then I suddenly do have a skill I can market and trade against. I think that accomplishing this through an in game skill system or tree is the most flexible and natural, but there has been hesitance to this. Personally, I'm not a fan of the minigame based system, but it does solve this problem as well by putting the emphasis on player skill rather than character skill. But without something to artificially impart a skill aspect to this, I don't think the mod is going to evolve any sort of specialization or community aspect to it. There's simply too little payoff compared to the loss of independence and safety that playing solo can bring.

I have felt the same way while playing. I've always tended to do things for myself for the main reason that I could. I didn't need anyone to mine for me - why would I? I could do it myself just the same. The only difference was whether or not I wanted to spend the time doing it. If skill-based/advantage systems were in place where one person was largely better at doing something, then I could see a community forming.

It really falls to one word: BALANCE. How do you make the game playable and enjoyable for someone who WANTS to be alone, while making it worthwhile for others to specialize inside a community and not be overrun by someone who is equally good at your job, and then some.

[Jerigord 7]

I have felt the same way while playing. I've always tended to do things for myself for the main reason that I could. I didn't need anyone to mine for me - why would I? I could do it myself just the same. The only difference was whether or not I wanted to spend the time doing it. If skill-based/advantage systems were in place where one person was largely better at doing something, then I could see a community forming.

It really falls to one word: BALANCE. How do you make the game playable and enjoyable for someone who WANTS to be alone, while making it worthwhile for others to specialize inside a community and not be overrun by someone who is equally good at your job, and then some.

There are a few routes that come to mind on this. I see advantages and disadvantages to each.

1.) Higher skill imparts better efficiency. If I'm a skilled miner, I mine things faster and my tools take less wear. This does provide a small differentiation between players, but not much of one. As I play/mine more, I can gather more materials so my productivity per hour is higher than yours, which means I can sell that. For solo players, they'll get this eventually or simply have to spend more time doing something for the same reward. It's not my favorite solution, but it does help.

2.) Higher skill in a given area is necessary to extract higher level materials. In other words, I can't mine iron unless I'm a journeyman miner or kapok if I'm not an expert lumberjack. The advantage to this system is that you clearly need a higher level person to advance past certain thresholds. This becomes even more evident if there's branching in the system so that you need two people smithing for red and blue steel (they're mutually exclusive on a single smith). The downside to this system is that it can feel artificial and it screws the solo player in a lot of ways. In SSP, this could make the mod unplayable. Solo play in SMP would still be possible, but would require the occasional interaction with some players in order to thrive. This system would also allow some communities/guilds to race advance to maximum and use their power to prevent anyone else from succeeding. That being said, I can see that happening even without this system.

3.) You implement an actual job system akin to Final Fantasy or any other number of games. For the sake of discussion, let's say I put in my lumberjacking hat. Now I'm awesome at chopping trees and get the best stuff, but I can't mine to save my life and I can't even equip a sword. Each person in town has an actual assigned job and interaction and trading is mandatory. For solo players, you have a "jack of all trades" job that can do everything, but not as fast or as well. The downside is that this system is extremely artificial and, frankly, alien to Minecraft. Additionally, if there's no cost of some kind to changing jobs, then this system won't really work either.

So there's three things off the top of my head for the sake of discussion. Or suggestion if this thread gets moved. I am interested in hearing what others have to say, particularly how we can achieve community without specialization from those who advocate it. I'd much rather have something that fits naturally into the game rather than forcing it, but I'm not seeing it right now.

[Kimbblesrath 503]

If you don't use it, it slowly degrade (much like IRL).

I don't like this. Why? Because it encourages grinding to stop your character from not being able to do anything. Specalization in itself isn't a bad thing, but this forces it onto people. You don't like it? Too bad, If you don't do it, eventually, you are going to suck at it.

This feels to much like an RPG to me, the whole grinding aspect.

[killster550 401]

kim, it degrades back to its natural 100% speed, by practicing a profession you'd gain a slight advantage over others, to simulate you being better at it without enforcing it

[Kimbblesrath 503]

kim, it degrades back to its natural 100% speed, by practicing a profession you'd gain a slight advantage over others, to simulate you being better at it without enforcing it

Ahh, ok. That makes sense now. Response post ahead...

There are a few routes that come to mind on this. I see advantages and disadvantages to each.

1.) Higher skill imparts better efficiency. If I'm a skilled miner, I mine things faster and my tools take less wear. This does provide a small differentiation between players, but not much of one. As I play/mine more, I can gather more materials so my productivity per hour is higher than yours, which means I can sell that. For solo players, they'll get this eventually or simply have to spend more time doing something for the same reward. It's not my favorite solution, but it does help.

This idea encourages grinding. The motivation to grind is what makes a game fall apart. The more you mine, the better you will get. So what will people do? Mine JUST for the sake of LEVELING UP. There has to be a purpose to do something, and IMHO, to level up really isn't something that fits with the direction of TFC.

2.) Higher skill in a given area is necessary to extract higher level materials. In other words, I can't mine iron unless I'm a journeyman miner or kapok if I'm not an expert lumberjack. The advantage to this system is that you clearly need a higher level person to advance past certain thresholds. This becomes even more evident if there's branching in the system so that you need two people smithing for red and blue steel (they're mutually exclusive on a single smith). The downside to this system is that it can feel artificial and it screws the solo player in a lot of ways. In SSP, this could make the mod unplayable.

I really like the idea of communities having to work together, in fact, I love it. But the idea of SSP being unplayable doesn't exactly appeal to me. The game will only be playable by someone who has good internet connection or has a good server to play on. I don't think it is a good thing to restrict who can play the game when you don't have to.

Solo play in SMP would still be possible, but would require the occasional interaction with some players in order to thrive. This system would also allow some communities/guilds to race advance to maximum and use their power to prevent anyone else from succeeding. That being said, I can see that happening even without this system.

[Jerigord 7]

I agree with those points as well, Kim, which is why I'm not really advocating any of them. I recognize that grinding doesn't solve anything. The gaming community theoretically learned that years ago with first gen MMOs, so I'm not interested in repeating it here. I'm hoping the points will spark other creative ideas from folks. :-)

[Jerigord 7]

Just another idea to toss out there. Could something be done with experience? Perhaps if XP was gained through other means (as it is from mining coal in vanilla), it could be seen as a constant, non-grindy currency, which can then be exchanged for character improvements. Such a system could be gamed, I suppose, but maybe there's some merit there? I don't know.

[killster550 401]

DOUBLE POST, NO, but uuuh, the gaming community learnt NOTHING from grinding mmo's, they still exist (guild wars 2 and diablo 3 anyone?)

[transcengopher 349]

Diablo 3 - maybe, but I'm not sure if GW2 is grindy. You see, once upon a time there was games where you should be slaughtering hundreds of mobs not even because quest said you so (I watched my friend playing some lineage 2 one day - 500 linen cloth rags for useless hat? sure, go do it, they drop from humanoids with 40% chance), but because each hundred of them will give you precisely 1% of XP you need to step up a level of swordsmanship to fight mobs even better. Now THAT is grind. I am exaggerating, but you got the point.

[renadi 258]

Guild Wars 2 isn't as bad as... pretty much all the other mmo's out there, you still have the option of grinding for neglible rewards, but it's even less fun than most games x]

[Jerigord 7]

Gaming community is not the same thing as gaming developers. :-D Of course there are still grindy games out there, but they're not as readily accepted and are openly ridiculed a lot more than they had be.

[Splode 5]

Compared to vanilla MC, I find a lot of specialisation happens in TFC.

The fact that many of the jobs can be performed by unskilled newbies usually works out well for me, as a lot of the people I play with can't be bothered to learn the more complicated mechanics, and are happy to just cut down trees, produce charcoal, hunt, or fish while the few dedicated players prospect, smith, and oversee mining and farming.