agriculture: possible adjustments & suggestions to consider.

[transcengopher 349]

weak visible light, which is what plants use.

Weak light is not enough, there needs to be strong red lamp. Especially for tomatoes. And blue lamp as well, as blue is the second maximum for photosynthesis.

[deus_hominem 12]

~snip~

~snip~

first quote: holy damn, and here at first i thought the idea was just being uber kinds of dismissed. but here you are to completely revamp the "no" i was getting into a completely coherent statement. thank you. i appreciate being told "no" in this form it's well collected, great constructive criticism as per my various thoughts, and it helped me to completely re-think what i thought was simple to begin with. and now it leaves me for hope for later.

second quote: maybe some kinda lantern or "redstone lamp composite" later on that could do as i would like would be cool along with a more well thought out "redstone composite" that might be replacing the existing system. this makes me happy, and glad to know that they may not be giving up on a facet of MC i happen to love a lot. otherwise thank you for your constructive talk over my way of doing things more or less. it's good to know someone else thought it was kinda cool too ^.^

[Hyena Grin 92]

Weak light is not enough, there needs to be strong red lamp. Especially for tomatoes. And blue lamp as well, as blue is the second maximum for photosynthesis.

Low energy light waves on the visible spectrum are primarily what (green) plants use to conduct photosynthesis. Red is a low energy light wave. It is also the colour of redstone torches. I'm not sure what your argument is. =P

I'm not claiming to be an expert on photosynthesis here, because I'm not. I'm not sure the point of getting bogged down in terminology; there's no reason redstone torches couldn't provide the kind of light needed to drive photosynthesis.

Edited 28 Dec 2012 by Hyena Grin

[transcengopher 349]

I am speaking of intensity. Sun gives off slightly more intensive light than redstone torch.

[Srgnoodles 1,030]

I am speaking of intensity. Sun gives off slightly more intensive light than redstone torch.

just slightly

[Hyena Grin 92]

I am speaking of intensity. Sun gives off slightly more intensive light than redstone torch.

Sunlamps (or grow lamps) are a real thing. Although you could certainly make the argument that redstone torches aren't very bright, my response would be: who cares. They are basically made of magic, are you serious.

If it bothers you that much, there is no reason why you couldn't simultaneously make redstone torches brighter.

[Emris 156]

How about

- Smelt sand --> get glass block

- Tan glass block with needed color (like wool)

- Stick a torch in glass block (like pumpkin) ... or 2 torches to make the light stronger

- Use for any purpose needed (growing plants, house lighting, etc.)

....in the background i hear the programmers scream...

[Srgnoodles 1,030]

How about

- Smelt sand --> get glass block

- Tan glass block with needed color (like wool)

- Stick a torch in glass block (like pumpkin) ... or 2 torches to make the light stronger

- Use for any purpose needed (growing plants, house lighting, etc.)

....in the background i hear the programmers scream...

thing is, i don't think that minsraft's code is able to support multiple colors of lighting due to the way it's set up

[transcengopher 349]

Sunlamps (or grow lamps) are a real thing. Although you could certainly make the argument that redstone torches aren't very bright, my response would be: who cares. They are basically made of magic, are you serious.

If it bothers you that much, there is no reason why you couldn't simultaneously make redstone torches brighter.

Magic is very lazy way to explain things. Why it is lazy? Because magic!

As for chemical lights, they are usually require either electricity or constant flow of reagents. We can make the latter, but it's higher tier technologically wise than we supposed to have in TFC, from what I can tell seeing where all this is going.

thing is, i don't think that minsraft's code is able to support multiple colors of lighting due to the way it's set up

Yes, lighting engine in minecraft represented by two-byte variable, that's all. I almost feel like there's some texture tint stuff going on in later lighting engines iterations, but I don't know for sure if one can do something about it without modifying base classes.

Although somewhere there's a new iteration on lighting, but it was put in long drawer as of now until at least 1.5 patch, if not 1.7.

[Srgnoodles 1,030]

Yes, lighting engine in minecraft represented by two-byte variable, that's all. I almost feel like there's some texture tint stuff going on in later lighting engines iterations, but I don't know for sure if one can do something about it without modifying base classes.

Although somewhere there's a new iteration on lighting, but it was put in long drawer as of now until at least 1.5 patch, if not 1.7.

well, i'm sure it's possible to make other colors, you would just have to completely re-write the lightmapping and possibly the whole lighting engine, so yeah not really that plausible

[deus_hominem 12]

Low energy light waves on the visible spectrum are primarily what (green) plants use to conduct photosynthesis. Red is a low energy light wave. It is also the colour of redstone torches. I'm not sure what your argument is. =P

I'm not claiming to be an expert on photosynthesis here, because I'm not. I'm not sure the point of getting bogged down in terminology; there's no reason redstone torches couldn't provide the kind of light needed to drive photosynthesis.

i thought the red and green colored lights were high powered wave lengths, where as blue was a low powered one. am i wrong?

speaking in terms of physics i mean.

[deus_hominem 12]

Magic is very lazy way to explain things. Why it is lazy? Because magic!

As for chemical lights, they are usually require either electricity or constant flow of reagents. We can make the latter, but it's higher tier technologically wise than we supposed to have in TFC, from what I can tell seeing where all this is going.

Yes, lighting engine in minecraft represented by two-byte variable, that's all. I almost feel like there's some texture tint stuff going on in later lighting engines iterations, but I don't know for sure if one can do something about it without modifying base classes.

Although somewhere there's a new iteration on lighting, but it was put in long drawer as of now until at least 1.5 patch, if not 1.7.

i know this will sound stupid, but.... what if the redstone equivalent could cause a chemical reaction with the wood in sticks that would slowly eat the stick away but at the same time acting like this odd "chem light" that gave off the necessary light. kinda like how chem lights are a lot brighter now than they used to be just because we figured out a good ratio of how to mix what would be the redstone, to the wood. i mean if in tfc we can meld metals together, whose to say we couldnt have a smart enough alchemist to figure out how many redstones we'd need to mix with wood for the correct spectrum of light necessary for such an such type of plant. say the yellow, orange, and red each require a different light type.

then one could make different types of these pseudo chem lights to work for each "type" of plant tfc offers. is that stupid to say? or does that make a fraction of sense?

[dockwithme 76]

i know this will sound stupid, but.... what if the redstone equivalent could cause a chemical reaction with the wood in sticks that would slowly eat the stick away but at the same time acting like this odd "chem light" that gave off the necessary light. kinda like how chem lights are a lot brighter now than they used to be just because we figured out a good ratio of how to mix what would be the redstone, to the wood. i mean if in tfc we can meld metals together, whose to say we couldnt have a smart enough alchemist to figure out how many redstones we'd need to mix with wood for the correct spectrum of light necessary for such an such type of plant. say the yellow, orange, and red each require a different light type.

then one could make different types of these pseudo chem lights to work for each "type" of plant tfc offers. is that stupid to say? or does that make a fraction of sense?

Sounds like an interesting idea, but I think it is beyond the scope and time period for this mod. Redstone is a made up thing from Vanilla, and TFC tries to be as believable as possible. Chemical reactions are somewhat technologically advanced compared to metallurgy (I think).

I like to think of TFC as taking place in the Stone Age to the Medieval time period [link to technological ages here] (Someone has to know if Bioxx or Dunk has said what specific time period it is supposed to mimic). I don't know if humans grew plants underground during that period, but I say the best way to go would be to find some examples of how people did that 'back in the day' and try to fit it in to the world of TFC. As you can see, there was early chemistry in the Iron Age, but I really don't know enough about that to say we could produce chemiluminescence.

[transcengopher 349]

i know this will sound stupid, but.... what if the redstone equivalent could cause a chemical reaction with the wood in sticks that would slowly eat the stick away but at the same time acting like this odd "chem light" that gave off the necessary light. kinda like how chem lights are a lot brighter now than they used to be just because we figured out a good ratio of how to mix what would be the redstone, to the wood. i mean if in tfc we can meld metals together, whose to say we couldnt have a smart enough alchemist to figure out how many redstones we'd need to mix with wood for the correct spectrum of light necessary for such an such type of plant. say the yellow, orange, and red each require a different light type.

then one could make different types of these pseudo chem lights to work for each "type" of plant tfc offers. is that stupid to say? or does that make a fraction of sense?

I don't think we have chemicals that can do such things IRL, but what you're saying makes sense, kind of.

But thic can exist only once owlchemy is added in TFC, if ever.

[Emris 156]

I don't know how much it would help with growing plants...but it would look cool...if it's even possible with the lighting system in minecraft.

Q. Am i allowed to link stuff like this?

[Hyena Grin 92]

Magic is very lazy way to explain things. Why it is lazy? Because magic!

As for chemical lights, they are usually require either electricity or constant flow of reagents. We can make the latter, but it's higher tier technologically wise than we supposed to have in TFC, from what I can tell seeing where all this is going.

First of all, TFC contains magic. Dunk and Bioxx have made it clear on several occasions that magic will always have a part to play in the mod. Zombies and skeletons aren't going anywhere. Redstone might not stick around - it's hard to say. But as long as it is a real substance in the minecraft world, then its properties are a part of the minecraft world. That said, magic isn't necessary; I was simply pointing out that your protest was excessive. In a world with zombies and skeletons running around, a magical light source doesn't seem all that strange.

The first purely chemical light may have been phosphorus(depending on your definition of 'chemical lighting'), which was discovered in 1669 by a German named Hennig Brand. Although it is an inefficient source of light, if it were available in a raw state in nature, in quantities similar to redstone, I have no doubt it would have been discovered even earlier and been used more prolifically for purposes such as lighting.

The most comparable equivalent would likely be lime lights, however, which were discovered in 1820. While that seems late, it's worth noting that lime lighting is simply the super-heating of quicklime - a substance that has been available since ancient times. The stuff predates modern chemistry by two thousand years, at least. We had simply been using it as a weapon rather than as lighting (and in another form as mortar for construction), because heating something to 2400 degrees was simply not feasible if all you wanted to do was create spot lighting.

Redstone is neither of these things, but it is a susbtance in the world and can have whatever properties Dunk and Bioxx decide. If it is a substance that burns brightly when exposed to air and gives off light in a spectrum that is useful in the process of photosynthesis - both qualities that are consistent with the 'lore' of redstone given that it already glows naturally and is reddish in colour - then that is what it does. If there is a substance in the world that has these properties and is easily extracted from readily available sources, I can't think of a single reason why it would be unreasonable to use it in whatever technological era you are in. Technology depends on nature and what nature provides us to work with. Not on some predetermined path set by our ancestors.

[dockwithme 76]

Redstone is neither of these things, but it is a susbtance in the world and can have whatever properties Dunk and Bioxx decide. If it is a substance that burns brightly when exposed to air and gives off light in a spectrum that is useful in the process of photosynthesis - both qualities that are consistent with the 'lore' of redstone given that it already glows naturally and is reddish in colour - then that is what it does. If there is a substance in the world that has these properties and is easily extracted from readily available sources, I can't think of a single reason why it would be unreasonable to use it in whatever technological era you are in. Technology depends on nature and what nature provides us to work with. Not on some predetermined path set by our ancestors.

What you're talking about is redstone taking on properties that it should believably have. If you ask anyone what redstone is, they tell you it's used for transferring electrical-like currents to power things in Minecraft. They don't say 'put it on a torch and it's a red glowing light.' So yes, if you want to keep redstone for the namesake rather than call it by the real name of the chemical that would be used, then that's different.

Yes, technology does depend on what you can do with natural things around you, but you have to be technologically advanced enough to perform such things. If you were able to find uranium in the soil of your backyard, could you make a bomb out of it? Just because you can find an ore that can be broken down and ignited to burn emitting light doesn't mean it's something you can just do.

I know I've heard people say that Bioxx has stated he will not implement guns for reasons that the mod does not encompass that specific time period. In that sense, even if you could find the things to produce gun powder and a gun, doesn't mean it should definitely be implemented in-game.

[Hyena Grin 92]

What you're talking about is redstone taking on properties that it should believably have. If you ask anyone what redstone is, they tell you it's used for transferring electrical-like currents to power things in Minecraft. They don't say 'put it on a torch and it's a red glowing light.' So yes, if you want to keep redstone for the namesake rather than call it by the real name of the chemical that would be used, then that's different.

Yes, technology does depend on what you can do with natural things around you, but you have to be technologically advanced enough to perform such things. If you were able to find uranium in the soil of your backyard, could you make a bomb out of it? Just because you can find an ore that can be broken down and ignited to burn emitting light doesn't mean it's something you can just do.

I know I've heard people say that Bioxx has stated he will not implement guns for reasons that the mod does not encompass that specific time period. In that sense, even if you could find the things to produce gun powder and a gun, doesn't mean it should definitely be implemented in-game.

Honestly, at this point you are just being difficult. I don't think that a 'stone that glows' which is already in the game is comparable to making nuclear weapons or guns. You're being deliberately obtuse. One requires elaborate processing and technologies that may not already exist. A stone that already glows being used for lighting is not a huge leap of technology or scientific marvel.

[dockwithme 76]

Honestly, at this point you are just being difficult. I don't think that a 'stone that glows' which is already in the game is comparable to making nuclear weapons or guns. You're being deliberately obtuse. One requires elaborate processing and technologies that may not already exist. A stone that already glows being used for lighting is not a huge leap of technology or scientific marvel.

This is an overhaul mod. It's meant to make the minecraft world more believable. Just because it's in vanilla minecraft doesn't mean it will stay in TFC. All I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure they aren't going to keep something like redstone since it's not believable outside of minecraft. Dunk has already said he hates it. If there are alternatives - which I honestly know nothing about - then maybe they will think about incorporating that as source of light. But redstone as it is now in vanilla has NOTHING to do with being a light source. Saying that it already exists in minecraft is not a reason to turn it into something else that it isn't.

[transcengopher 349]

Honestly, at this point you are just being difficult. I don't think that a 'stone that glows' which is already in the game is comparable to making nuclear weapons or guns. You're being deliberately obtuse. One requires elaborate processing and technologies that may not already exist. A stone that already glows being used for lighting is not a huge leap of technology or scientific marvel.

There's no redstone as of now in TFC. There's cinnabar and cryolite, which, when crushed, produce redstone. Those minerals do not glow by itself, redstone dust don't glow by itself, just torches. Reaction of something with wood, that produces high-intensity light, because of magic.

Basically, both facts that redstone still in TFC and comes from TFC ores are plug corks just for now.

TFC does not contain magic, it has place for fantasy, these two aren't the same. We don't need magic in world to call it fantasy world.

[Hyena Grin 92]

There's no redstone as of now in TFC. There's cinnabar and cryolite, which, when crushed, produce redstone. Those minerals do not glow by itself, redstone dust don't glow by itself, just torches. Reaction of something with wood, that produces high-intensity light, because of magic.

So when you place redstone on a block of wood, it lights up? (No.)

Redstone has few predefined properties apart from what we can observe. That doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on whether or not it is sensible to use it as a lightsource. It is already a lightsource. Regardless of what it is, where it comes from, how it achieves luminosity: all of these things are irrelevent. Because as of right now, you can make a redstone torch that glows indefinitely. That is all the information we need for this suggestion to be reasonable.

Basically, both facts that redstone still in TFC and comes from TFC ores are plug corks just for now.

Maybe. We don't know that for sure. There's a decent chance it will remain indefinitely. And as far as stopgap measures go, redstone torches allowing underground farming seems like a pretty simple stopgap for underground farming. Which is an extension of an also unfinished feature. It's not like I'm suggesting anything elaborate here, just a sensible, easy to implement solution. If Bioxx and Dunk want to implement more involved processes in order to achieve these results they are more than welcome to, but I'm not going to be the one to tell them how to do it.

TFC does not contain magic, it has place for fantasy, these two aren't the same. We don't need magic in world to call it fantasy world.

I guess skeletons just got up and started walking around through natural processes. nope, no magic required here

[dockwithme 76]

That is all the information we need for this suggestion to be reasonable.

You're looking too shortsightedly at this. I don't think Bioxx wants to introduce something that isn't in his plan for the mod. Just because it is possible to do, doesn't mean he should do it - when in the long run it will just be taken out.

There's a decent chance it will remain indefinitely.

Read this thread about the devs feelings on redstone: http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/2062-redstone-and-how-it-should-work/

In the first few pages Dunk posts a few times.

I don't want to sound rude or mean, but I'd rather get off of the topic of redstone. Does anyone know of basic ways to create luminescence? Is there a chemical found in ore, or soil, or whatever else that could be reasonably processed and ignited to create light that would be suitable to supply energy for photosynthesis? That would be a great addition to this suggestion (unlike my rambling and arguments).

I'm still on the track that fungi would be easiest solution to the lack of underground agriculture.

[Hyena Grin 92]

You're looking too shortsightedly at this. I don't think Bioxx wants to introduce something that isn't in his plan for the mod. Just because it is possible to do, doesn't mean he should do it - when in the long run it will just be taken out.

I usually try to let devs speak for themselves on what they want. A suggestion is a suggestion at face value. An argument which consists of someone else's opinion - however likely you might believe it to be true - is not an argument. I think it's a perfectly adequate solution to a problem. That doesn't mean that it will be used. I simply think that it is better than nothing. Which is currently where we are with this thread.

Read this thread about the devs feelings on redstone: http://terrafirmacra...it-should-work/

In the first few pages Dunk posts a few times.

Until redstone is removed, or officially announced to be pending removal, this is irrelevant. Bioxx and Dunk have expressed their dislike of Redstone, that's not new and linking to it doesn't change anything. The fact is that they worked Redstone into the mod when they didn't have to. There is nothing about TFC that relies on redstone being available, and yet they went out of their way to put it in anyway. I won't make assumptions about why they did this, or whether anything is going to change. It isn't shortsighted to work with what is there. The fact is that Redstone was deliberately put into the mod when mod's worldgen itself eliminated redstone from naturally occurring. The assumption is that it won't be there later. What is shortsighted, is to dismiss ideas because of things that may or may not change, things which you personally have no control over, and yet posit with an air of preternatural certainty. They don't like redstone. That doesn't mean that it won't stay, it likely means that it won't remain in its current form; it might mean that it might undergo an overhaul to make it more believable. Or they may remove it in favor of a totally different system that provide similar functionality.

Obviously the suggestion is contingent on Redstone remaining. That is fine. I am fine with that contingency. You aren't.

Let the devs decide for themselves what they want to do, it's not your job to speak on their behalf and interpret every fragment of an idea for a grand plan. I've seen plenty of times where people have deigned to speak on Dunk's behalf because of a fragment of a sentence he wrote somewhere, and been told summarily that they were wrong. For example, Dunk has corrected people several times now about making assumptions about the 'technology level' of the mod, and yet people still use that as an argument for why X shouldn't be there. It's a bad argument, and speaking for someone else is bad form.

People do it alllll the time here, it drives me nuts. =P I'm not sure why Dunk doesn't smack people for it.

Regardless, obviously Redstone has been talked to death and beaten afterword, so let's move on as you suggest.

Does anyone know of basic ways to create luminescence? Is there a chemical found in ore, or soil, or whatever else that could be reasonably processed and ignited to create light that would be suitable to supply energy for photosynthesis? That would be a great addition to this suggestion (unlike my rambling and arguments).

I'm still on the track that fungi would be easiest solution to the lack of underground agriculture.

Quicklime is created by smelting calcium rich ore such as limestone. When heated (a lot), quicklime creates a very bright and persistent light that has been used to light theater stages. It is also useful because quicklime has many uses, such as in the creation of cement - something else I would very much like to see implemented in TFC. I like materials with multiple purposes.

Fungus is also fine, I have no issue with that. I think there is room for a variety of solutions.

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

The only reason Redstone is there is the same reason TFC is a mod's folder mod: compatibility. With so many mods dependant on redstone out there, if you want to make your mod compatible, you need to have it.

[deus_hominem 12]

I don't know how much it would help with growing plants...but it would look cool...if it's even possible with the lighting system in minecraft.

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=-na2kNZJID4

Q. Am i allowed to link stuff like this?

this vid is cool. i would like this just to color my underwater colony.