More advanced chemistry

[JoekerJoe 1]

Main idea:

I was thinking that as this mod has a slight aim to add real life concepts to the game, that it could be good to add some more realistic chemical building techniques. For example solid rock blocks should not just be able to easily be made from heating for example limestone should have to be thermally decomposed and then mixed with clay, sand, water and crushed rock (all of which conveniently happen to be in-game already) to make concrete which should be a building material. To make the aggregate perhaps a steel hammer, or a new blueprint, should be used to make it accessible later in the game and a maybe a kiln has to be made?

Other possibles?:

Aswell as this idea, metals such as copper are not generally just extracted by heating but instead by electrolysis which would not be too hard to integrate into the game as it could use other metals to make electrodes which would touch a water source block and be given a redstone current and then you just throw in the ores into the water source block and leave them to purify.

Also, I think it would be interesting to add crude oil as another liquid found ingame and have the proccess of fractional distillation dumbed down so only a few fuels are produced such as methane, propane and butane but then these can be used as a much better fuel than raw coal or wood and have better advantages but are harder to obtain.

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

Loving the concrete idea

Electrolysis would then require redstone, and therefore cinnabar. Plus, if you're just moving into the bronze age, electricity [redstone] was centuries away from being harnessed effectively as an energy source. If electrolytic refinement is indeed added, it should require some sort of electrolyzer block that would hold water similar to a cauldron, and would have to be made with a high tier material like steel. It could make ore refinement a more efficient process than just smelting certainly, but it cannot replace it.

As far as oil goes, not only would that require new terrain generation and therefore old world abandonment, but what exactly would you USE it for? Everyone seems to be thinking about IndustrialCraft-like endgame content for this mod, but we're all forgetting that the START-game content hasn't even been fully fleshed out yet. Let's perfect the age we're in before we start going into later ones, shall we?

[valkupo 17]

Loving the concrete idea

Electrolysis would then require redstone, and therefore cinnabar. Plus, if you're just moving into the bronze age, electricity [redstone] was centuries away from being harnessed effectively as an energy source. If electrolytic refinement is indeed added, it should require some sort of electrolyzer block that would hold water similar to a cauldron, and would have to be made with a high tier material like steel. It could make ore refinement a more efficient process than just smelting certainly, but it cannot replace it.

As far as oil goes, not only would that require new terrain generation and therefore old world abandonment, but what exactly would you USE it for? Everyone seems to be thinking about IndustrialCraft-like endgame content for this mod, but we're all forgetting that the START-game content hasn't even been fully fleshed out yet. Let's perfect the age we're in before we start going into later ones, shall we?

I agree. This isn't what I was expecting to see when I clicked on "More advanced chemistry"

Minus the concrete (which sounds quite interesting), it just sounds you want to take Buildcraft and Industrialcraft and make them work for TFC

[slackgiver 13]

while I like this idea. remember that Tfcraft will not be wholly realistic. If you want total realism go outside

[JoekerJoe 1]

I agree. This isn't what I was expecting to see when I clicked on "More advanced chemistry"

Minus the concrete (which sounds quite interesting), it just sounds you want to take Buildcraft and Industrialcraft and make them work for TFC

Yes I have never played those two mods so I was unaware that they actually had some of these ideas implemented sorry

while I like this idea. remember that Tfcraft will not be wholly realistic. If you want total realism go outside

I did not say it would make it realistic I said it would add 'real life concepts'

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

Yes I have never played those two mods so I was unaware that they actually had some of these ideas implemented sorry

I did not say it would make it realistic I said it would add 'real life concepts'

It's not so much that we think you want IC2 stuff in here, it's just that everyone's focus seems to be a little too modern-oriented.

People need to keep in mind that you start off this game literally pre-stone age

[JoekerJoe 1]

It's not so much that we think you want IC2 stuff in here, it's just that everyone's focus seems to be a little too modern-oriented.

People need to keep in mind that you start off this game literally pre-stone age

Yeh I see your point now I look back at the OP, maybe I should change just to focus on the concrete idea?

[EternalUndeath 1,208]

Yeh I see your point now I look back at the OP, maybe I should change just to focus on the concrete idea?

No need to change it, I think we can all see the merit of eventually getting concrete.

Should require at least steel tools to use though - I can't really see ancient primitives pouring concrete

[JoekerJoe 1]

No need to change it, I think we can all see the merit of eventually getting concrete.

Should require at least steel tools to use though - I can't really see ancient primitives pouring concrete

Yes I looked it up and it fits with the theme as the ancient romans were the first people to effectively harness its use and it was used in the egyptian times so it does fit with the whole not too advanced theme quite well I think but yeh it is a little beyond the primitive timeframe so steel tools should be needed to turn certain rocks into aggregate I am thinking

[william1074 9]

few random ideas, all in a cauldron

-Fireproof leather (leather, cinnabar, glue)

fire resistant, but not lava proof Armour, future explosives casing

-tallow(animal fat or wax, which ever gets added)

dip in string for candles, brighter and/or longer lasting than torches

-glue (bone meal)

fireproof leather

-match paste (sulfur leather)

stick in a stick for a quick and easy way to light a fire (not sure if its exactly needed....)

[Menoch 335]

Warning! Diarrhea of the brain.. aka: Wall of text!

People had the concept of electricity as far back as the first homo sapien witnessing the lightning bolt... People knew they could generate static with wool. Thades in ancient Greece (amber and theories on magnetism) and egypt/middle east (baghdad battery).

People also knew that the current given off by electrical eels and catfish was electricity (or lightning as was part of the nickname given to the eel). These creatures were often held in captivity, and sick people made to touch them so their ailments could be healed... though i am sure they were "shocked" to find out it didnt work.

ELECTRICITY BEFORE ITS TIME?

While the baghdad battery isn't absolutely beyond a doubt proof of electricity before historically recorded electrical findings and patents... there is also no evidence condemning whether or not it was indeed a battery. Makes you think.

Did ancient egyptians have actual operable lamps using plants with a high acidic content? Sure a potato doesnt have enough acid to generate a strong electrical current, but plant-matter with high acidic content chemically broken down could supply enough "juice" to provide an electrical current which could in turn heat a thin copper filament which would, in a vacuumous chamber, provided a prolonged glow.

And we all, I am guessing, know that putting a lit match in jar and sealing it can cause a vacuum as the oxygen is consumed by the flame.

CHEMISTRY AND IT'S MAGICAL APPEAL:

What did or did not happen along the timeline of TFC's given era could strictly be kept to what is "historically documented". However if we could step outside of this historical documentation, and look at the archeological discoveries that have been made that do not have historical documents attatched to them, as well as read theoretical writings that have later been proven to be a reality, the realm of believability is not breached, and dare i say that Chemistry could in fact be the answer to "magic" in TFC that we have been looking for?

....

Or not.. Who wants a sandwich?

[Sda215 8]

Warning! Diarrhea of the brain.. aka: Wall of text!

People had the concept of electricity as far back as the first homo sapien witnessing the lightning bolt... People knew they could generate static with wool. Thades in ancient Greece (amber and theories on magnetism) and egypt/middle east (baghdad battery).

People also knew that the current given off by electrical eels and catfish was electricity (or lightning as was part of the nickname given to the eel). These creatures were often held in captivity, and sick people made to touch them so their ailments could be healed... though i am sure they were "shocked" to find out it didnt work.

ELECTRICITY BEFORE ITS TIME?

While the baghdad battery isn't absolutely beyond a doubt proof of electricity before historically recorded electrical findings and patents... there is also no evidence condemning whether or not it was indeed a battery. Makes you think.

Did ancient egyptians have actual operable lamps using plants with a high acidic content? Sure a potato doesnt have enough acid to generate a strong electrical current, but plant-matter with high acidic content chemically broken down could supply enough "juice" to provide an electrical current which could in turn heat a thin copper filament which would, in a vacuumous chamber, provided a prolonged glow.

And we all, I am guessing, know that putting a lit match in jar and sealing it can cause a vacuum as the oxygen is consumed by the flame.

CHEMISTRY AND IT'S MAGICAL APPEAL:

What did or did not happen along the timeline of TFC's given era could strictly be kept to what is "historically documented". However if we could step outside of this historical documentation, and look at the archeological discoveries that have been made that do not have historical documents attatched to them, as well as read theoretical writings that have later been proven to be a reality, the realm of believability is not breached, and dare i say that Chemistry could in fact be the answer to "magic" in TFC that we have been looking for?

....

Or not.. Who wants a sandwich?

Definitely for the chemistry, though there should be at least a bit of believable fantasy in TFC. And no thank you, but thanks for the sandwich, .

[ruhl4 24]

I would love to see an experiment table, which is used for throwing a few ingredients together and recording results, with some nasty side effects (for instance, exploding).Having to slowly discovering and acquiring elements and technology to create useful gadgets would be amazing (the discovery of the steam engine, for example).

[Mephistos_chan 26]

Concrete is a good idea, most certainly the Romans used it frequently and they were late bronze/ early iron age. The Baghdad battery is a bit of a false lead and I don't think electricity could be thematically justified in TFC, after all it's only a hypothesis that it was even a battery. Although various people have thought it may have been used in early electroplating, my personal opinion is that it was used to generate small sparks in a darkened room as part of a religious demonstration.

Electrolysis is beyond the scope of TFC in my opinion, in the historical time period TFC sort of covers it wouldn't have been possible and copper ores, such as malachite, were crushed and smelted.

But the use of chemistry does open up other things and maybe a use for those pesky minerals. Maybe in coloured glass.

I'm am glad to see suggestions coming through that aren't just shot down in flames, so keep 'em coming.

Not so keen on the petrochemicals but animal fats and vegetable oils were relatively abundant and flammable.

[Menoch 335]

I agree with the natural animal fats and oils as opposed to petrochem.

JUST IN CASE: Electricity and other Chemical ideas following are only open dicussion and suggeston and therefore are not intended to lead people to think this stuff is going to be in game. I am a music developer not a mod dev.

I do however disagree with the electricity part. This post should really be in the Discussion section from this point lest someone bursts a blood vessel and shoots this down in a Pachyderm Rage. Lol...

But here goes nothing:

Check this out:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_hitech02a.htm

Especially the part on egyptian glyphs. These objects were possible. May have even been built. Note that science in many cultures was considered black magic and sorcery, and much of it was closely guarded by practitioners, or destroyed by non believers (the Catholic Church was a great example of that). The Catholic Church as an organization forbade anyone to own printings of the very book from which they supposedly teached. God only knows they did a crap storm of damage to the alchemical and scientific community of that day and age.

Inventions which harnessed the power of electricity in a civilization like Ancient Egypt would have been considered god-like and could be used to control masses, whether through spiritual propaganda, or as use by the Pharoah and his sorcerers. It isnt like they left instruction books around for this stuff. Discovery of its uses by John Q Public would have made the "gods" of that time equal to mere men and visa versa.

The heiroglyphs left behind are the window into the past not only for historians, but for scientists alike.

Much is left in the anals of history, from the African Haya blast furnace which burned over 3500 degrees faranheit and built by them some 2000 years ago, to the the Davidic Era use of poxy to fasten tips to javelins (beeswax, gum arabic, powdered sawdust, and a few other components).

I am not suggesting "dragons" and phae-folk, nor am I proposing grand electrical schematics.

But chemistry in moderation, be it end game bio-batteries which could "magically" power a lamp for a while longer than an oil powered hurricane lantern lasts, would be just the tip of something in the realm of "believable fantasy".

I look at DaVinci's designs with awe and wonderment. I dont think TFC needs tanks and helicopters, but imagine someone of his day gazing upon his drawings. I liken it to myself as a child watching the animated Hobbit.

When i was a child (when we rode dinosaurs to school), chemistry was magic.

[Biodigious 211]

...anals of history...

[Mephistos_chan 26]

Please, I'm an electronic engineer, I understand that these are suggestions for a game, but that website is utter bollocks. I'll happily take your typo's, anals and poxy, as opposed to annals and epoxy, as Freudian slips pertaining to the truth. As Abraham Lincoln said, "Don't believe every thing you read on the interweb."

[zoran 31]

Especially the part on egyptian glyphs. These objects were possible. May have even been built

The supposed "light bulb connected to the snake-stone" has been disproved: http://ancientaliens...nscripts/112-2/

And for those who don't want to read the whole thing:

This relief is not so mystical if you have a little understanding of Egyptian art and religious symbols.

This is a variant depiction the creation of the world in Egyptian mythology.

The Egyptians believed that before anything else existed there was a vast primordial sea of nothingness.[8]

They believed that the first thing to emerge from this sea was a lotus flower.[9][10]

This is probably because the lotus closes at night and sinks underwater. In the morning it re-emerges and blooms again.

It was believed that lotus flower then gave birth to the first God who was often associated with the sun.[11] This relief was done after the God Atum was merged with the sun God Ra and thus became Atum-Re.

Atum the God who created everything else after this is actually represented as a snake.[12]

And yes it is a snake in these reliefs not light bulb filaments, you can actually see the eyes and other elements of a snake if you look closely.

This is pretty standard Egyptian mythology, that the lotus flower came forth first then the first God Atum – who was represented as a snake.

Well what about the bubble surrounding it?

I will quote an expert directly on this point

“Despite the variety of deities, the Egyptians conceived the origin of the world as singular. Only one god (Atum) was responsible for the emergence of the universe as a bubble of air in the vast, limitless, inert ocean and everlasting darkness of the undifferentiated primordial waters (Nun) that existed before creation.”

In other words the universe came forth from the lotus in a bubble of air.[13]

There are other elements of this picture that back this interpretation up.

The Universe bubble is here being supported or raised up by the Goddess Nun.[14] Nun is the primordial waters and technically it is she that raises up the lotus, Atum, and everything else.[15]

This pose of outstretched hands is one of the more common motifs for Nun and she raises and supports the universe from nothingness.[16]

The Egyptians did however use torches, and lamps/lanters (with oils).

[Menoch 335]

...anals of history...

Lmfao! Im dying here. Too funny.

Yea i am trying to type all this on my cell phone and try as i may, correcting auto correct doesnt always pan out. Haha!

I'll try not to believe everything i read on the interweb.

I'll stick to what they teach in school... like big bangs and primordial oozes and stuff. That stuff's got to be real. It's taught in "science" class after all.

As for electricity, it all sounded pretty fantastic. What i find simply amazing though is that the scientific community labels egyptians possibly using electricity of any form as hogwash, but teaches monkeys turning into men as fact. And i thought women were a mystery!

Whether that site is bollocks or not, I dont know. I'm no electrical engineer, but I know one thing fo sure. I'm glad history doesnt come from anals!!

[zoran 31]

It's not labelled as "hogwash" because we don't want to accept it, but because it (very likely) didn't happen. Misinterpreting standard Egyptian hieroglyphs as light bulbs doesn't make them fact, in the same way that believing that lead will turn to gold doesn't make it true.

Baghdad batteries on the other hand, those look somewhat viable, we have physical evidence. I believe mythbusters made a set that could preform electrolysis, and since they are said to have come from 1st-3rd centuries AD, they could be implemented. On the other hand, they could have been used for nothing of the sort and may not have been batteries at all, and there is evidence that they would have required hundreds of them to be viable to be used for electrolysis. From a game play standpoint, in my opinion they are not worth implementing.

On top of that, evolution is a fact (as well as a theory [this means that it had both theoretical and physical evidence]). I don't want to get into any sort of religious (or much of any other that doesn't relate to the suggestion) debate but referencing an over simplified and nearly incorrect version of evolution as being false, or at the very least debatable did not add anything worthwhile to your post.

[Waveshaper 33]

What i find simply amazing though is that the scientific community labels egyptians possibly using electricity of any form as hogwash, but teaches monkeys turning into men as fact.

'Science' won't do this since more than 50 years! Media is doing this - but please don't ask for the reasons...

Science instead teaches us from 'some sort of mice-like mammal' turning into men.

The thing with ancient battery cells is this sort of an 'easy to believe' story. It pretends, that mankind is smarter than it's always stated - so we WANT to believe in it. But look closer at it - try to keep feelings away. Electrical voltage show up in many things. Some archaeologists find jars with something that offers electricity - jars that are filled with something that probably was meant as stored food - and infer, that this stuff was used for making energy instead of being the obvious; stored food!

If there were a way to USE the stored energy for the ancients - and they will find an evidence for this - that's another story. But WHY should someone have invent & KEPT batteries, while having no device to use it for?

[Menoch 335]

Wooha! Feel the frustration.

Science:

Merriam-Webster: 2. Systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through 'observation' and 'experimentation'.

Wiki on Theory of Evolution:

Life on Earth originated and then evolved from a universal common ancestor approximately 3.8 billion years ago.

Firstly, thank you for this discussion. Sorry i derailed the thread. I understand sometimes its hard to not want to reach out and throttle someone when in a discussion. And i admit i have a silly way of thinking about and looking at things.

The reason i brought up evolution is that no one alive today, witnessed the reasoning behind what and why they were drawing on the wall in egypt. Nor is there a 3.8 billion year old man on earth to tell us that mankind is what it is because it was observed mutating from another organism. The sad thing about finding archeological discoveries without documentation is that we are left to ponder and left to draw conclusions from other surrounding influences, even if they may be misleading or give no indication of the existance of the other. But without proof, we choose to disbelieve.

But I find that aside from hypotheticals and theoreticals, (and apart from religious aspects) it is personally more believable to me that mankind 3000 to 4000 years ago knew how to harness electricity even in some menial fashion, than submit to what most Evolutionists believe a fact and not just/also a theory.

That was my point of bringing up the Theory of evolution and the big bang. Seriously. What sounds more fantastic? A lightbulb in ancient egypt or a gorilla with a PHD? (I joke)

If most scientists believe that 'modern man' is roughly 100,000 years old, I find it difficult that we only realized wtf time it is with something as old as electricity in the last 400 to 500 years. However if mankind over the last even 50,000 years was as narrow minded as we on earth are today, then i guess maybe it is a sad, sad fact.

But...

"These objects were possible. "May" have even been built."

In stating this I still didn't propose anything more unbelievable than zombies and Creepers.

[Waveshaper 33]

Nor is there a 3.8 billion year old man on earth to tell us that mankind is what it is because it was observed mutating from another organism.

And exactly THIS is the point - this shows up, that most of us don't know much about evolution and what science has found in the last years.

Evolution is nothing that you only can see when watching it for decades - evolution is something that is constantly happen to all organisms on the planet. Now, that we know for what we have to look, science can SEE evolution every single day. Evolution isn't a 'Theory' - evolution is a simple fact, how life on earth is working.

And please forget about combining 'evolution' with 'how life originated' - both things have it's parallels but evolution can't describe the origin of LIFE, it only describes the origin of SPECIES!

I know, the imagination mankind has of evolution is a very 2dimensional one - but if you deal with new breakthroughs in science (ridiculous to call it so, when they are decades old) you will UNDERSTAND, that there is much more - much more, than we have understand so far. But research is going on and every day we understand more... well... not 'we' are the one, they'll understand... Cause we still hear from the genes, that ONLY affects how a creature is formed. I even can't remember that I have ever heard from 'epigenetics' somewhere else but scientific literature! But that are things scientists knew since more than 50 years.

However if mankind over the last even 50,000 years was as narrow minded as we on earth are today, then i guess maybe it is a sad, sad fact.

No, that's not the right point of view.

Science works different. You almost certainly CAN'T invent a steam engine for example, if you don't knew about force transmission.

Sure, you COULD - but you won't deal with it, cause you don't know what to do with that thing.

Science always needs straight evolution. Today it's easy - cause you can consult other 'scientist' if you need to know about things correlate with your research. Long time ago, this wasn't a possibility - so there probably often were people 'inventing' something but don't finished their work, cause the don't find a way to use it. Sure there were others, that had a usage - but they simply lived elsewhere and both inventors never heard about each other.

History (the nearer one over the last 300-400 years) of science is FULL of exactly this storys. There - for example - were a couple of scientist that lived besides C. Darwin that could have told him, that he wasn't exactly right with his 'Origin of Species' - but they never knew from each other, so he had do figure it out alone - a thing that took him quite his whole life... Today we're knowing about this unhappy coincidences - but then... -.-

[Mephistos_chan 26]

Wooha! Feel the frustration.

Science:

Merriam-Webster: 2. Systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through 'observation' and 'experimentation'.

Wiki on Theory of Evolution:

Life on Earth originated and then evolved from a universal common ancestor approximately 3.8 billion years ago.

Firstly, thank you for this discussion. Sorry i derailed the thread. I understand sometimes its hard to not want to reach out and throttle someone when in a discussion. And i admit i have a silly way of thinking about and looking at things.

The reason i brought up evolution is that no one alive today, witnessed the reasoning behind what and why they were drawing on the wall in egypt. Nor is there a 3.8 billion year old man on earth to tell us that mankind is what it is because it was observed mutating from another organism. The sad thing about finding archeological discoveries without documentation is that we are left to ponder and left to draw conclusions from other surrounding influences, even if they may be misleading or give no indication of the existance of the other. But without proof, we choose to disbelieve.

But I find that aside from hypotheticals and theoreticals, (and apart from religious aspects) it is personally more believable to me that mankind 3000 to 4000 years ago knew how to harness electricity even in some menial fashion, than submit to what most Evolutionists believe a fact and not just/also a theory.

That was my point of bringing up the Theory of evolution and the big bang. Seriously. What sounds more fantastic? A lightbulb in ancient egypt or a gorilla with a PHD? (I joke)

If most scientists believe that 'modern man' is roughly 100,000 years old, I find it difficult that we only realized wtf time it is with something as old as electricity in the last 400 to 500 years. However if mankind over the last even 50,000 years was as narrow minded as we on earth are today, then i guess maybe it is a sad, sad fact.

But...

"These objects were possible. "May" have even been built."

In stating this I still didn't propose anything more unbelievable than zombies and Creepers.

Sad news from the TFC community website, several members were killed and an unknown quantity injured when a thread derailed into an on coming anthropological freight train. Survivors were left shocked by the carnage. It is believed that a series of individually well meaning posts snowballed into a catastrophic derailment. A number of Egyptologists suffered minor bruising. Abraham Lincoln said, "This is even worse than the day that a creeper got in to George Washington's false teeth."

PS

I hate creepers

[Menoch 335]

Sad news from the TFC website, several members were killed and an unknown quantity injured when a thread derailed into an on coming anthropological freight train. Survivors were left shocked by the carnage. It is believed that a series of individually well meaning posts snowballed into a catastrophic derailment. A number of Egyptologists suffered minor bruising. Abraham Lincoln said, "This is even worse than the day that a creeper got in to George Washington's false teeth."

PS

I hate creepers

Phew! Yea huh? I need to lay off the fu***mg dandelion wine and History Channel!

I will try to keep any future derailments to a one or two car minimum. No need for the whole train to suffer.

Well, on the bright side, no animals were harmed in the making of this thread derailment.