underground rivers, lakes, and crystal caves (a better view for your underground base)

[Leosallespoli 338]

Those are not plants. Those are animals, which are not even making the chemosynthesis themselves, but feeding from the bacteria that does (Archeabacteries). Mostly, Giant tube worms.

Plants are pretty much screwed if out of the light, even shade plants need it (in a minor percentage). And don't even say "sea weed", those are not plants.

You should research a little more:

Monotropa uniflora

myco-heterotrophy

http://waynesword.palomar.edu/pljune97.htm

non-photosynthetic orchids

[achartran 465]

on Monotropa uniflora

Its hosts are certain fungi that are mycorrhizal with trees, meaning it ultimately gets its energy from photosynthetic trees.

Research your own evidence next time. Reading about the other things you mentioned, it seems that this is the case with all plants of this kind. If I'm wrong, then please enlighten me on where these fungi get their energy? There needs to be light in the equation somewhere, and down in a dark cavern, there isn't much light.

[Leosallespoli 338]

Research your own evidence next time. Reading about the other things you mentioned, it seems that this is the case with all plants of this kind. If I'm wrong, then please enlighten me on where these fungi get their energy? There needs to be light in the equation somewhere, and down in a dark cavern, there isn't much light.

So you're saying that most living beings are photosynthetic because ultimately the energy comes from photosyntesis?

These fungis are parasites, they live off other trees much like a leech live off the host.

Not always light comes in the equation, like it was said about the geothermal bacterias they get the energy from chemical reactions from molecules that comes from deep underground, that may not have any influence from the sun (most of earths energy comes from nuclear decay and stored energy from... well... the big bang or whatever you believe in that created earth)

[achartran 465]

So you're saying that most living beings are photosynthetic because ultimately the energy comes from photosyntesis?

These fungis are parasites, they live off other trees much like a leech live off the host.

Not always light comes in the equation, like it was said about the geothermal bacterias they get the energy from chemical reactions from molecules that comes from deep underground, that may not have any influence from the sun (most of earths energy comes from nuclear decay and stored energy from... well... the big bang or whatever you believe in that created earth)

No, I'm talking about plants, damnit! I'm saying that for these plants to survive and get energy they leech off of fungi that leeches off of trees, which are photosynthetic. Now, I think we can all agree that there are no trees underground, so where does this fungi get energy from? I am perfectly aware that not all living things gain energy from photosynthesis, I'm not an idiot. Animals get energy from a a series of reactions called cellular respiration, now the glucose (I'm not sure if other sugars can be used, eternal?) originates in photosynthetic plants, but animals can move, and they don't need their energy source to be exactly where they live, so they can live in a dark light-less cave, but still eat photosynthetic plants. But sadly, plants tend to be immobile, so they need their energy source as close as fucking possible to where they are rooted in the ground. Now if the nearest tree for a fungi to leech off of is above a few hundred feet of rock, that fungi isn't exactly going to be able to get to it, now is it? So these plants you claim can live underground, actually can't, because sunlight is required in their specific energy pathway, and you can't get sunlight in a cave.

Microbes may be able to live without sunlight, because they don't use photosynthesis (and there are waaaaay more non-photosynthetic bacteria than photosynthetic bacteria BTW) and survive on nutrients in their habitat that they have evolved a way to break down into energy. I never said sunlight was required by all living organisms, that would be crazy talk, but for plants it pretty much is a neccesity.

/rant

[Srgnoodles 1,030]

So you're saying that most living beings are photosynthetic because ultimately the energy comes from photosyntesis?

These fungis are parasites, they live off other trees much like a leech live off the host.Not always light comes in the equation, like it was said about the geothermal bacterias they get the energy from chemical reactions from molecules that comes from deep underground, that may not have any influence from the sun (most of earths energy comes from nuclear decay and stored energy from... well... the big bang or whatever you believe in that created earth)

and where do the trees get the energy that the fungus is taking from it?

yep, Sol.

and speaking of leeches, where does the energy that the host got it come from? whatever it ate, where did the food get it? if its a plant its right back to Sol

everything leads back to the sun

but you do have a point with things that live deep in the ocean or underground where no light gets to, but they are few

and anyway this argument is pointless, what does it matter that some things are photosynthetic and other things are chemeosynthetic?

[achartran 465]

and where do the trees get the energy that the fungus is taking from it?

yep, Sol.

and speaking of leeches, where does the energy that the host got it come from? whatever it ate, where did the food get it? if its a plant its right back to Sol

everything leads back to the sun

but you do have a point with things that live deep in the ocean or underground where no light gets to, but they are few

and anyway this argument is pointless, what does it matter that some things are photosynthetic and other things are chemeosynthetic?

beat ya to it

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

So you're saying that most living beings are photosynthetic because ultimately the energy comes from photosyntesis?

These fungis are parasites, they live off other trees much like a leech live off the host.

Not always light comes in the equation, like it was said about the geothermal bacterias they get the energy from chemical reactions from molecules that comes from deep underground, that may not have any influence from the sun (most of earths energy comes from nuclear decay and stored energy from... well... the big bang or whatever you believe in that created earth)

And what does this have to do with what i said? My arguments was "plants can't live without light", this basically is "there can be ecosystems without light", which is very true -some caves are just another example of this-. However, there isn't plants in this ecosystems, 'cause they need light to live.

And i sincerely doubt those "fungi flowers" can be clasified as plants. Plants's predecesors were the photosytetics sea weeds, because those live near the surface; a number of mutations allowed this sea weeds to get a stronger stem, actual roots, and then it was able to grow out of the water -i'm omitting plenty of details here, just for simplicity sake-. A consecuence of this is that every single plant has chloroplasts in their cells, as this sea weeds did, and the chloroplasts can't exist with no chlorophyll. Now, in the same page you linked, it says this "plants" don't have any chlorophyll. Therefore, no chloroplasts. Those leave them as multicelular eucariotic beings that are heterotroph -since they don't produce their own food-. Sounds familiar? fungis are just this.

The point being, those aren't plants either; they are fungis.

EDIT: damn you guys answer fast :

and anyway this argument is pointless, what does it matter that some things are photosynthetic and other things are chemeosynthetic?

Well, Redundantusage said plants could live with no light, i suppose defending the guys who suggested there to be underground wheat; i just argued his points, to prove those plants would not be believable and then any subterranean "crops" should be fungi, which can easily live with no light and can even produce it.

But mostly, since plants have some chances to live with, let's say, some torch's light, yeah, this argument is pointless ._.

So, i just used my intelligent post of the month in what started a pointless argument. That doesn't feel quite satisfiying...

[abandoned mines 119]

what if the mushrooms got there food from natural minerals around them? i personally know of serveral forms of algea and fungi that ingest minerals around them, there found in local mines all the time

[redundantusage 330]

To go back to my original point, mushrooms are awesome and while I've heard tell somewhere on this site that the dev team has no desire for people to live underground existences, it would still be a nice alternative to the topside dweller lifestyle.

[achartran 465]

And i sincerely doubt those "fungi flowers" can be clasified as plants.

They do seem to be in the order plantae, according wikipedia. I am unsure myself, it seems that they are one of those inbetweener cases where it could be classified either way.

what if the mushrooms got there food from natural minerals around them? i personally know of serveral forms of algea and fungi that ingest minerals around them, there found in local mines all the time

Fungi and algea are certainly fine for living underground, Just not these specific ones that Leo is talking about. Algae are actually not true plants if I remember correctly, they are more of a collection of microbes, I think.

[Leosallespoli 338]

And what does this have to do with what i said? My arguments was "plants can't live without light", this basically is "there can be ecosystems without light", which is very true -some caves are just another example of this-. However, there isn't plants in this ecosystems, 'cause they need light to live.

And i sincerely doubt those "fungi flowers" can be clasified as plants. Plants's predecesors were the photosytetics sea weeds, because those live near the surface; a number of mutations allowed this sea weeds to get a stronger stem, actual roots, and then it was able to grow out of the water -i'm omitting plenty of details here, just for simplicity sake-. A consecuence of this is that every single plant has chloroplasts in their cells, as this sea weeds did, and the chloroplasts can't exist with no chlorophyll. Now, in the same page you linked, it says this "plants" don't have any chlorophyll. Therefore, no chloroplasts. Those leave them as multicelular eucariotic beings that are heterotroph -since they don't produce their own food-. Sounds familiar? fungis are just this.

The point being, those aren't plants either; they are fungis.

Now this is a good argument, but orchids are plants. There is no doubt in that, and it does not fit your argument those that are non-photosynthetic. It is not a rule for a plant to make photosynthesis About three hundred plant species do not photosynthesize but are parasites on other species of photosynthetic plants."

Now if even so they depend on photosynthetic plants is another argument, but they can live off of decomposing organic matter that can be provided in a lot of different forms.

[Leosallespoli 338]

They do seem to be in the order plantae, according wikipedia. I am unsure myself, it seems that they are one of those inbetweener cases where it could be classified either way.

Fungi and algea are certainly fine for living underground, Just not these specific ones that Leo is talking about. Algae are actually not true plants if I remember correctly, they are more of a collection of microbes, I think.

Algae are not plants, and those I've mentioned live undergroud or in low light environments.

[redundantusage 330]

Bah, damn interweb.

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

Now this is a good argument, but orchids are plants. There is no doubt in that, and it does not fit your argument those that are non-photosynthetic. It is not a rule for a plant to make photosynthesis About three hundred plant species do not photosynthesize but are parasites on other species of photosynthetic plants."

Now if even so they depend on photosynthetic plants is another argument, but they can live off of decomposing organic matter that can be provided in a lot of different forms.

Orchids are a special case, but anyways, yes, it renders invalid my argument that all the plants are photosynthetic. However, and i'm gonna quote myself on this:

'cause they need light to live.

So my argument now is: every plant needs light to live, even if they are not photosynthetic. Orchids do need the light, because they need their hostage to stay alive, and for that, the hostage (which is another plant, a tree most of the times) needs light. Orchids do not digest their hostage's cells to live, they instead basically steal sap from the hostage's branchs. They can not live of descomposing organic matter, they don't have what they need to do so; they just live from absorbing another plant's sap, and this can not be given to the orchid without a tree producing it. Therefore, this plants can't live underground.

[Leosallespoli 338]

Orchids are a special case, but anyways, yes, it renders invalid my argument that all the plants are photosynthetic. However, and i'm gonna quote myself on this:

So my argument now is: every plant needs light to live, even if they are not photosynthetic. Orchids do need the light, because they need their hostage to stay alive, and for that, the hostage (which is another plant, a tree most of the times) needs light. Orchids do not digest their hostage's cells to live, they instead basically steal sap from the hostage's branchs. They can not live of descomposing organic matter, they don't have what they need to do so; they just live from absorbing another plant's sap, and this can not be given to the orchid without a tree producing it. Therefore, this plants can't live underground.

Now I can agree with you and we all can get back to mushrooms and plump helmets

[abandoned mines 119]

Now I can agree with you and we all can get back to mushrooms and plump helmets

if we were to add the bioluminessant algea / fungi how bright would they be?

also what if they only slightly glowed until you walked over or near them? it would be neat to walk into an altra dep cave and suddenly small lights begain to dance all around you with many different colours and paterns.

for aglea in water they would only begin to glow if you or something entered the water (as this is what the actual life form does to allert its buddies about predaters).

just thoughts

[Leosallespoli 338]

if we were to add the bioluminessant algea / fungi how bright would they be?

also what if they only slightly glowed until you walked over or near them? it would be neat to walk into an altra dep cave and suddenly small lights begain to dance all around you with many different colours and paterns.

for aglea in water they would only begin to glow if you or something entered the water (as this is what the actual life form does to allert its buddies about predaters).

just thoughts

This is simple enough and I think it can be done with not much effort!

[abandoned mines 119]

This is simple enough and I think it can be done with not much effort!

the light wouldn't stop mobs from spawning and would alos be short lived

it would give you a short flash or pulse and than would glow dimmly while you were in the area

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

I don't really know if a fungi/algae can react that fastly to your presence... How about if they took their time to reach full luminiscense? i mean, when they detect you, they start glowing growingly brighter until you are just besides them, and when you get out of their range, their glow drecreases until they reach their normal state? Is that possible?

I oculd do with flashes, but honestly, it makes a little more sense to me if their reaction is not instant .-.

[Leosallespoli 338]

the light wouldn't stop mobs from spawning and would alos be short lived

it would give you a short flash or pulse and than would glow dimmly while you were in the area

I don't think minecraft has a way to differ light from different light sources, that would be pretty hard to implement.

As to light pulsing it is also doable, a light source that goes on and off given some ticks.

[Leosallespoli 338]

I don't really know if a fungi/algae can react that fastly to your presence... How about if they took their time to reach full luminiscense? i mean, when they detect you, they start glowing growingly brighter until you are just besides them, and when you get out of their range, their glow drecreases until they reach their normal state? Is that possible?

I oculd do with flashes, but honestly, it makes a little more sense to me if their reaction is not instant .-.

It would have to have an AI that 'looks' at the player as mobs does. I think it is possible.

[Srgnoodles 1,030]

I don't think minecraft has a way to differ light from different light sources, that would be pretty hard to implement.

As to light pulsing it is also doable, a light source that goes on and off given some ticks.

acutually it does, at least it seems to, seince different light sources give off different kinds of light, the sun give off white, torches and the like give off orange/yellow, and the moon tints things blue

[Leosallespoli 338]

acutually it does, at least it seems to, seince different light sources give off different kinds of light, the sun give off white, torches and the like give off orange/yellow, and the moon tints things blue

*Searching eclipse*

Yeah... I don't think so, The color may vary from the time of the day, but the variable is only one for all light sources.

"setLightValue(float par1)"

I miss the different light colors from terraria.

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

I don't think minecraft has a way to differ light from different light sources, that would be pretty hard to implement.

As to light pulsing it is also doable, a light source that goes on and off given some ticks.

No it doesn't right now, it only differs in the color and light level emited, but it can't be differed -from what i know- if mobs will or not spawn if that kind of light is present. BUT, there is a light level in which mobs can or can't spawn -at least for now-. If this lifeforms's glow produces a light level minor than this limit, mobs will be able to spawn. This light level would be the same the moon has, so in the surface it wouldn't be noticiable; but in a dark cave? it will enlighten a fairly big bit of your sorroundings.

EDIT: Totally forgot about this

It would have to have an AI that 'looks' at the player as mobs does. I think it is possible.

Now that i think about it, it's not similar to what the enchantment table already does in vanilla?

[achartran 465]

Leo, the double posts, you're killin' me over here.