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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
Miner239

Magic!

86 posts in this topic

Some more thoughts on how magic could play out.   I rather liked Thaumcraft's system of requiring the player to examine every block and item with the thaumometer (at least, the older versions).  I liked how that sort of simulated the player researching the natural environment to learn how to harness it's energies.   Depending on how difficult the initial entry into magic is desired to be, this could be taken even further.  Some thoughts:

 

BLOCK RESEARCH

The Mechanic

Spoiler

 

If it were desired to magic magic a difficult trade to start, and also randomize it a bit, it could be done be requiring the player to actually 'research' items and blocks in the world.  This would be done by the player crafting a 'research bench' or something like that.  It would have a gui, that would have 4 main areas.  A 16x16 grid, and three slots - one slot for the item to be researched, another for the tool to be used, and another for blank paper (the blank paper use discussed later).  The player puts their research tool in the slot, and this allows them to put an appropriate item in the other slot.  So any stone item will require a chisel or hammer for research, while organic items require a knife.    With the tool in place, the player puts an item in the item slot, and this transforms the 16x16 grid into a picture of that item.  Blocks will look exactly like one of the faces.  Inventory items will have the picture with generic background filler squares where it is transparent.   But each pickable square will involve 1 pixel from the graphic.  I'm not sure how doable 16x16 is within the size of things.  Could go 8x8 if 16x16 is too big.

 

Now, the player then picks various squares of this 16x16 grid, revealing them.  The player is looking for magical patterns hidden under the graphic.  Depending on the tool tier, the player can reveal more boxes for each item.  Simple stone tools, the player can only reveal maybe 20 squares (less than 10% of the 256 possible).  After the player reveals 20 squares, they've learned all they can from that item and it is deleted and they have to put a fresh item in.  So here is an incentive for high tier knives (and chisels).  Maybe at steel the player can pick 60 squares (almost 25%). 

 

What the player is looking for are patterns.  So this assumes that spells make use of patterns in some way.   So say for instance the player, in order to cast spells, must craft spell books or scrolls (paper use ahoy!).  This may involves special inks, and symbols in a certain order or pattern (linear, or in rings like witchery) in their own crafting gui block.  These patterns, if they're abstract, could be randomized per seed.   On the research table, the player is trying to find the patterns hidden under the picture.   So in each seed, the item or block(s) that contain the recipe for a given spell is randomized as well.  So the player is examining a birch log, and discovers the symbol for a healing spell.  But they're using a copper knife and have already used 25 picks, and only have five left.  Can they figure out which direction the symbols go (if linear) before they run out of picks?  Let's say the pick all the wrong sides, and run out of picks.  but now they at least know that the birch log contains the recipe for that spell.  So they can focus their research there.  If the exact location of the recipe in the graphic is randomized each time, they may have to try several more.  But it could also be fixed, and now that they know where it's located, they will probably get the whole spell recipe next try. 

 

If there is only one spell recipe in the graphic, it's going to be hard to find.  It could be that there's more than one spell icon (all the same, just in different spots to increase chance of being found). So the player has more chances to discover which spell is hidden there.  But the recipe is not necessarily by the icon.  Moreover, there could be 'dummy' icons in various places.  Maybe they are part of the real recipe.  Maybe not.  But these distract the player.  Especially good if the real recipe is in a fixed location.  These 'dummy' symbols will increase the chance the player will pursue wrong leads in various areas. 

 

Now, I'm thinking there's no code reaction when the player has discovered the patterns and spell.  It's up to the player to take good notes irl, because the game is not going to hold their hand for them.  Or if it's to be easier, the player could have a spellbook that automatically notes a spell when then have revealed it entirely in one sample.

 

 

 

 

The Meta

Spoiler

 

Now in multiplayer, I think the effect this has is that players could band together in their research, splitting the effort.  Moreover, an experienced mage could choose to just tell a pupil the recipe for a given spell, allowing them to skip the tedious research (for that spell at least) simulating the passing down of knowledge by the more learned.  Or they could tell their pupil the item that contains a given spell, if they still want the pupil to do some work for the knowledge.  It allows player knowledge to be meaningful and valuable.

 

There could be tiers of recipes based on item rarity/difficulty to acquire.  So anything that can just be found in the world would just be tier 1 spells (stone, dirt, wood, etc).  Then ores and tools derived from them can contain higher tier spells.  more rare and expensive items like crucibles, beds, and armor might be another level, and things like bloomeries and blast furnaces, well, maybe they're not involved at all. Or maybe they're guaranteed to contain a high tier spell.   The point being you don't want a basic spell hidden in the firebrick block.

 

And of course, this block research could be a gateway for upper tiers, if the lower tiers of magic are desired to be relatively simple and accessible for players.  So low tier magics are simple defined recipes, but to get into the really good stuff, you're going to have to do the research. 

 

This sort of mechanic could also bring an element of adaptation.  A player may not always be able to find every spell they want easily.  The large number of tree and stone varieties might mean that the player just can't find every spell, without travelling huge distances.  This may or may not be good.  On the not-good side, some players may find it frustrating, not being able to find a specific spell they seek.  On the other hand, as long as there is a large number of spells, the player may effectively have a different experience in different playthroughs, with their early magic career using the spells that they find, so maybe sometimes they're a healer type, sometimes offensive, sometimes buffs, just depending on how thoroughly they research.  One of the interesting aspects of this system is that it would reward IRL diligence on the part of the player, in terms of keeping careful notes on what they've researched, and what they haven't.  But eventually I think things will even out, as the player find more and more item types.  You could even have players specializing in traveling far and wide, bringing back exotic samples for the town mage to study!

 

 

NPC Scribe Research

Spoiler

 

Now if there's one thing players hate it's grinding, and one thing they love is automation.  I think it might be interesting if the player could be allowed to hire NPCs to help them research.  Perhaps they can find and rescue a scribe in a fortress dungeon.  Perhaps scribes show up from time to time in a town, or on a ship.  But in any case, somehow the player can get the scribe to come to their place and help research.  The player must feed them (same for rescues or hires), and must also pay them an initial hiring fee, plus a salary (a rescued scribe has no initial fee, and works for half the salary of a hired one).  If the player does not feed them, they simply don't work.  Maybe disappear for stretches of time to go buy food.  But if the player does not pay them, they leave.  A hired scribe just goes back to town (requiring a new hiring fee).  A rescued scribe either disappears, or goes to town and becomes a  regular hireable scribe.  The scribe would need an interface where the player can place their food and salary, and check it form time to time.  Perhaps food in the scribe's inventory does not decay, or decays at a slower rate?  Scribes only work while in a loaded chunk, or maybe that's a config,  to prevent them from being OP on continuous SMP servers.

 

In order to perform research, NPCs must be near bookcases full of books.  Books can be made by the player, perhaps bought from shops, or found in dungeons.  Ancient dungeon books (librams) are most effective.  Player produced books come via the research method mentioned earlier.  As the player reveals squares, if a certain threshold of their picks reveal a symbol - dummy or not - they get a research note.  This is what the blank paper slot is used for.  With several research notes, the player can produce a research tome (treatise).   However, when the player discovers a spell icon, this automatically produces a special research note, which is used to produce a special book (tome), better than research tomes.   Treatises, tomes, and librams provide research points, which are accumulated by the scribe (maybe via a placed desk block of some kind) and eventually when they reach a certain threshold they have a chance to produce a manuscript.  Manuscripts reveal something to the player - perhaps a specific item that contains a spell recipe.  Perhaps the recipe itself.  But the idea is, it allows the player to bypass doing the research themselves, at the expense of feeding and paying scribes.   This gives a use for excess food, incidentally.  If manuscripts can track who has read them (and it's not ridiculous code-wise to do so) then maybe other players can also get a 1-time clue.  But it may be better for the sake of balance to have it turn into a treatise. The various kinds of books could also serve as ingredients for magic items and blocks of course (keeping in mind that tomes and librams will be in somewhat limited supply, unless the player can produce them somehow at top tiers) this would keep the research mechanics useful, even after the player has discovered all spells.  

 

 

MAGIC TIERS & DELIVERY

Spoiler

One of the obvious ways magic could progress would be through spell power naturally.  Higher tiers means more damage/more defensive/more fun spells. 

 

However, it could also be a matter of delivery.   So for instance, the early tiers of magic may require the player to scribe a given spell down on a scroll.  Scrolls don't stack very high, and perhaps take a while to read.  They're not ideal, perhaps difficult to use offensively due to the time they take to read.  This could be Tier 1 magic.  Tier 2 might be books.  Books are more involved to make, but they don't stack - they have multiple uses.  More than a stack of scrolls.  And perhaps read faster.  So These simulate the copper and bronze ages, in that they are a simple-ish tech (paper).

 

Magic tier 3 is wands.  These can hold more powerful spells, and are multiple use, like books, but more uses.  They're simple right-click use, so easier to use in combat.  Magic tier 4 is staves.  Similar to wands, but more powerful, more uses, more range.  These two tiers involve gems or something like that, and are analogous to the iron and steel tiers in terms of work.  Tier 4 might introduce item enchantments with charges - a sword that causes fire each time it hits, a breastplate which extinguishes the player if set on fire, or a ring of feather falling (if we got jewelry slots).  But all limited number of uses.

 

Tier 5 introduces permanent item enchantments, and tier 6 permanent  area enchantments.  Additionally, if feasible from a code and gameplay perspective, perhaps the mage can cast multiple spells from one device, or even with no devices at all?  In my mind this involves large crystals, as I suggested before.  But in any case, it takes things another step above the paper in tiers 1 & 2, and the gems in tiers 3 & 4. 

 

I envision it as being important though, for lower tier materials to still be used in the later tiers.  So books and gems maintain importance.  Paper, gems, and leather are all kind of minimally useful in TFC1, so it'd be nice to see them be useful and desirable items in TFC2.

So those are some thoughts I've had of late, on some possible systematic aspects of magic.

 

Edited by Darmo
restore spoilers after forum migration
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I really like that concept Darmo. It gives a greater depth to the system, and while at first i was wary because the first part of the research process sounded a lot like Thaumcraft, I feel that this is a very interesting system that you have come up with. Your system seems to be able to be played either in Single or Multiplayer game modes, and your mention of pupils is also interesting, as it opens the gate for "wizard guilds," which would be an interesting new dynamic, especially if we had two or three main types of magic (natural, industrial, and alchemical, perhaps). I also like that you mention the use of other character types to achieve the higher levels, like the player who goes out to find new resources, as it resembles the Explorer class which earthboundflyer suggested as one of new "classes" (It gives a great purpose to them, as the only use I could see for them was for scouting out the land for fortresses). It encourages other occupations, and I appreciate that.
 
I enjoy the idea of the NPC Scribe, though I'm not sure what the logistics would be for creating the system you outlined, though I think the one you proposed is pretty well done.
 
Finally I really like the tier system you have put forward, though it doesn't seem to have a level like the proposed system for Smiths where the player gets to "create their own" spell or enchantments (I know this could get out of hand quickly, I was simply remarking on it).

Edited by RemusSargin
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With smiths, you are referring to the notion of the alloy system being less cut-and-dry, and more about different ingredients adding different properties?  I'm honestly a bit skeptical of that idea, but I guess we'll see.

 

The build-your-own spell thing, I don't know.  It seems to me like it could be very difficult to balance, nevermind the implementation.  I've played  a couple games that had such a system, and it seems like it ends up with tons of min-maxing, and just seems very bland.  Just my personal experiences.  My background is good 'ole Dungeons & Dragons, so I'm kind of biased probably, towards more defined spells. 

 

Limited customization might be more manageable.  So you have a ranged damage spell, and the player can choose the damage type, range, and AoE, which are all tradeoffs.   Maybe an armor spell that grants a specific tier of armor, and the tier, duration, and area of effect are tradeoffs.   But things like an armor spell that grants a bunch of resistances and also flight and a a light aura, that seems to me like a bit much.

 

 

Scribes, I kind of imagined as being linked to a study object - a lectern perhaps, or desk.  I was imagining the NPC being linked to the lectern, similar how golems in Thaumcraft get linked to chests or other objects they're meant to interact with.   Maybe the player, when they first pay the hiring fee to the scribe, the scribe gives the player a contract, and that's the object used to link them to the lectern (same role as golemancer's bell in TC).  This contract vanishes somehow if the scribe leaves due to neglect (not sure exactly how that would trigger).  The player can fire the scribe by giving them back the contract.  The lectern could have a spot to store paper and ink, which is what the scribe uses to make the notes they produce.   The research points accumulate on the scribe, so it behooves the player to make sure to take care of the scribe, lest the research be lost.  Also the player can hire multiple scribes.  But only one scribe can be using any given bookcase at a time.  It might be good if, once assigned to a lectern, scribes do not move, so as not to overly burden the processor with pathfinding.

 

Basically, I envisioned all mages employing scribes for the purposes of making the books they use to make items in the upper tiers, if not also for player spell learning.  Player research is mainly for learning spells, and producing the books the scribes draw on to make to make notes the player uses to produce the item-ingredient books and learning books.

Edited by Darmo
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Well, for those who worry about the inclusion of magic in TFC, that is why I think it should be optional. But at the same time it should be considered when adding features to the mod.

 

I also like the progression in Thaumcraft where you discover new materials and research new magic based upon them. This also prevents players from bypassing the tech tree to get the ultimate something or other. Unlike some, I like that the players character learns magic, and remembers this across respawns. This cuts down the repetition/tediousness of getting back to where you were. But since you might lose your tools, like a wand, it still punish you for dying.

 

This should definitely be end game. Since TFC kinda stops at steel having any form of magic would allow for additional gameplay while keeping the awesome core TFC experience intact. In TCs case, it follows naturally from the iron requirement of the first basic wand.

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I think it might be cool to combine Darmo's system with a 'make-your-own' combinatorial spell system. Assuming that spells are based on specific sequences of symbols in Darmo's system, it could be good to assign certain variables such as elemental type, ranged/self, damage/heal, etc, as well as some 'spell logic' words to give the spells some more variability and perhaps more creative combinations. Then, once symbols are generated from the seed, these variables can be assigned. Any 'found spells' would follow set formula for a basic healing spell, a basic ranged damage, etc, but when a play has done enough research they can begin to figure out which symbols correlate to which elements and begin to craft their own spells. For example, once both a ranged fire damage and a self targeted fire resistance buff are discovered, they might be able to isolate 5 symbols which are in both spells. 3 of these are generic logic words, 1 is the word for damage (deal damage and resist damage), and 1 is the word for fire. By cross referencing these 5 with another spell, say a drowning resistance buff, they could isolate the word for fire. General logic words, by virtue of being in most spells, would be very hard to find out via cross referencing.

 

When they finally figure out enough base words such as 'element', 'ranged' and 'damage', they can make very crude custom spells to fill niches of spells that are left out. Perhaps to achieve this, some non-essential or replaceable  pre-gen spells could be left out, e.g. if there are 5 elemental ranged spells then only 3 will appear in the world. This will create an incentive to create new spells at the initial level.

 

At the final level, a player can figure out the logic words, through trial and error or through more cross referencing to a *very* large database. Once they figure out logic words, they would be able to raft more refined and directed spells. Logic words could act as stabilisers or risk-reducers, but also could act to describe complex actions. Even better, if multiple logic words could be strung together to create more and more complex spells allowing for more progression based on player creativity.

 

EDIT: If more 'useless' or 'life-hack' spells were made, just to fill up more blocks with spells, such as for example 'Tan Leather' to skip the final Tannin soak of the leathermaking, or 'Weld Steel', it would increase the vocabulary of the language by a lot. You might be able to achieve something like 'Target Fire Damage Deal Power:High Type:Specific Quality:TravelThroughBlock @ [Wearing Blue Steel Armour] ' for something like TerrafirmaCrack. Apologies for the mock code, I have no idea how to word something like this but it sounds like it might work like that.

 

When combined with the procedural alloys that Bioxx is considering, then if you were fighting against some enemy you could target their best alloy type specifically and counter it. You might not be able to make an alloy that beats it, but you can target it. It would make the creation of multiple good alloy types preferable in multiplayer team battles like TerrafirmaCrack.

Edited by lightningtiger88
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Scribes, I kind of imagined as being linked to a study object - a lectern perhaps, or desk.  I was imagining the NPC being linked to the lectern, similar how golems in Thaumcraft get linked to chests or other objects they're meant to interact with.   Maybe the player, when they first pay the hiring fee to the scribe, the scribe gives the player a contract, and that's the object used to link them to the lectern (same role as golemancer's bell in TC).  

 

I'm happy that you elaborated on that because I was kind of lost on how you planned this to be carried out. I think that could work, as long as it isn't too difficult or time consuming on the coding side.

 

The build-your-own spell thing, I don't know.  It seems to me like it could be very difficult to balance, nevermind the implementation.  I've played  a couple games that had such a system, and it seems like it ends up with tons of min-maxing, and just seems very bland.  Just my personal experiences.  My background is good 'ole Dungeons & Dragons, so I'm kind of biased probably, towards more defined spells. 

 

Limited customization might be more manageable.  So you have a ranged damage spell, and the player can choose the damage type, range, and AoE, which are all tradeoffs.   Maybe an armor spell that grants a specific tier of armor, and the tier, duration, and area of effect are tradeoffs.   But things like an armor spell that grants a bunch of resistances and also flight and a a light aura, that seems to me like a bit much.

 

I totally agree, as I stated that this system would be difficult to balance. Limited customization may be a solution, and the only reason I brought this up is an earlier thread on smithing in the new update. I was just looking for something to extend the lifespan of the profession. Here is the discussion on the continuation of the Smith Profession.

 

Finally, I mentioned that we should perhaps have two or three types of Mages in this system, just to add variety. Here are my suggestions:

Mage Classes

Overview

So as I mentioned, there could be two or three types of mages: the Druid, which Darmo has talked about; the Artificer, which would deal heavily with tools and improving the efficiency of machines, or perhaps creating better ones; and the Alchemist, which Darmo has proposed in another thread. These three mage classes would represent the types of magic available, and all three would start out with almost the same start, researching for example. However, as they got into higher tiers, they would find different higher level magics, which would cause a split (this is similar to Darmo's suggestion about Pollution/Degradation. The player would learn basic skills from each branch, but would eventually come to a crossroads, where they would have to choose their specialization, causing a sort of division, allowing a different play experience for each person. Here are more in-depth descriptions of the classes I suggested.

The Druid

Druids are the patrons of the forests of the world. While they are not necessarily adverse to all of humanity, they are not fans of the fumes and smoke of the workshops of the Alchemists and Artificers. Rather, they would prefer the great wilderness, and thus have developed a special connection to the natural world around them. While not entirely unskilled in the ways of the Gems or Potions, they prefer the power of the magics contained in the trees around them, particularly Oak, Maple, and Willow Trees. Because of their connection with nature, they are able to influence the growth of trees and crops, as well as the familiarization of animals.

The Artificer

Artificers are the makers of great tools, blessed practitioners of the craft of enchanting. They have evolved along with the human race, helping to advance and preserve progress. They have little regard for the needs of nature, and while potion fumes are of little consequence to them, they prefer the solid nature of the gems they work with on a day to day basis. They deal in the semi-permanent enchantments which are added to armor with the aid of the powerful crystals of the earth. This gives them the ability to grant bonuses to damage, defense, and efficiency, with enough research.

The Alchemist

Alchemists themselves do not seem evidently magical. Their chosen work, Alchemy, however, certainly works wonders. Combining a serious scientific precision with the wild fervor of a genius, these brewers deal in the realm of liquids and potions, preferring the fluid and changing over the solid Wood and Gem mediums of other mages. Due to their reliance on both fresh, organic ingredients, as well as new industrial apparatus for experimentation, they are not called to either the side of progress or nature, as they need both to survive. Their craft produces many fascinating concoctions with a wide variety of effects, though they are all quite temporary. They help the common man in his daily pursuits, in hopes of one day discovering something to change the world, though for the better or worse, it can not be said.  

 

So those are my ideas for the moment. While I recognize that it may be difficult to integrate these ideas (and I certainly do not expect any of this in the final version), I was trying to create a believable cast of classes that made sense in the grand scheme.  

Edited by RemusSargin
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I also hope that if magic is included, that it can be disabled in configs and is not required to reach end game.

 

I could handle some herbology/pharmocology and some alchemy. But spells and mana and such? I'd just not use them. 

Edited by subarctic_guy
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Have you read, understood, and followed all of the rules listed in large text at the top of the suggestions forum?(Yes/No): yes
Answering "no" to the above question will result in your post being deleted. 

there is already an idea for magic on the forums already (I know) but something that always struck me, is the fact, to me, Terrafirmacraft was a game all about the natural elements, so I always thought a mod, revolving about rituals, or some kind of natural aspect to the magic system I'd consider "better", and while my opinions may vary. I think, like the way much of the other features work, is having a kind of "tiered" system, so in the beginning, you find a convergence of ley lines (a good idea) or something similar, and build a ritual-like area, maybe like a stone circle or some such to amplify power levels, and then it becomes more artificial, so like the "gemcraft" idea, you may have to create some kind of gem, which the large gem described in the other post used to upgrade your ritual area, because rituals which require lots of work to elicit a changing effect in your enviroment, I think fits very well into a mod all about hard work. A later thing, like maybe you can use a "carving" (another use for a chisel?) system to carve runes into stones, so then runes get imbued with power, and so you can use your spell, so a symbol could represent "fire" and at the cost of some magic power (which would only be rechargeable in a kind of ritual, or in your ritual area) you could lob a bunch of sparks of fire, however, this wouldn't be anything particularly dramatic like summoning a thunderstorm, as that seems like a big complicated ritual thingy. Some kind of difficulty added to it, such as being unable to regenerate mana while spell-casting, and you have to perform a dedicated ritual. another potential use for the carving system, could be, if so decided, to create kind of runic talismans, to give a smallish buff

 

There could also be another way to gain power slightly faster, like sacrificing an animal (which would just be killing it or something) or something to gain a small power buff, or for using it for power, but it could be an early game alternative if you can't find a ley line, to generate power, you could sacrifice a sheep or some such. Another feature could be in the inclusion of what we describe as "sympathetic magic" so using an object people have used for a while (like an old boot or something), to cast them with something in mind.

 

(the rituals might need some kind of plant life, or prepared ingredients, so maybe some kind of magical knife?)

 

any suggestions would be welcome to help the idea grow (and I apologize to the developers in advance if my idea is too complex to implement) (and thank you miner 239 for some of the ideas I "Magpied" off of you)

Edited by Kittychanley
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I think everything is still on the table  Blazelink.  I don't recall seeing the devs indicated a leaning for any particular system, so I'd say the more ideas we get out there the better.

 

That said, personally I'd prefer that ritual sacrifice should also be excluded from the game.  Personal opinion.

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I think everything is still on the table  Blazelink.  I don't recall seeing the devs indicated a leaning for any particular system, so I'd say the more ideas we get out there the better.

 

That said, personally I'd prefer that ritual sacrifice should also be excluded from the game.  Personal opinion.

I agree. Personally I would like to avoid anything that even resembles like religion. 

Magic could follow some paths like:

Gemology.

Alchemy.

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Here is my suggestion on grounded believable magic. A lot of my family, including myself are, lets say Wiccans. All magic is performed in a circle, which is a depression in the ground. So what ever magic is needed, (e.g. charged crystals, imbued tools, magical potions, spells) can only be created in the circle. Then carried off to accomplish what ever task is desired. Now digging a circle in the ground, is just a circle in the ground. It has to be imbued with power to get something out of it. The four elements of magic need to be drawn into and channeled through the circle. There would be 5 stages. Stage 1 is earth south side of the circle. Stage 2 is water, east side. Stage 3 is air, west side. Stage 4 is fire, north side. Stage 5 is the center of the circle.

STAGE 1; So after digging a shallow impression into the ground. The first small alter will always be at the south end of the circle, and will become the alter for Earth. A mud brick alter would be perfect for this. After the alter is complete, the player will need to draw in earth energy, (it could be called the Earth Ritual). Earth Ritual; a specific type of dirt, sand, stone, and plant will be required to start drawing in the element. These objects can be placed in the 4 corners of the alter to begin the transformation. Like sealing a vessel or barrel. It will take time for the mud brick alter to become the Alter of Earth. At this point the altar can either take time to fill up a small reservoir of earth energy, which would require the chunk be loaded, or like tools, have limited use. Of which the Earth Ritual would have to be preformed again. As magic xp goes up, the reservoir or durability will increase. So in the beginning only small spells, or the examples above, can be performed.

Examples of earth based magic. A spell written on paper to reveal if ore is in the area, like a prospectors tool, (limited uses). A small vial of magical fertilizer. Increased tool or armor durability. Spawn a passive mob.

STAGE 2; Water Alter. It could start off as an empty bucket/large vessel, bucket of water, or large vessel placed on the east side of the circle. To imbue it, the 4 objects needed could be salt/fresh water, snow, sponge, and sea weed placed in the 4 corners of the would be alter. Transforming it into the Alter of the Seas. Examples of water magic here would be, familiarizing/pacifying mobs. Creating a source block of water where ever the player wants. Drowning a mob where they stand. Healing potions. Watering crops or quenching thirst without water.

STAGE 3; Air Alter. Again could place an empty container that's open, an empty bird cage, bubble,etc on the west side of the circle. To imbue this one, the 4 objects can be a feather, sand/glow stone, string, and a leaf block, again placed in the alter to be. Transforming it into the Alter of the Skies. Example of wind magic can be, sharper weapons, knock back. Mob repellent as if the wind is blowing them back, keeping them at a distance. Blowing sticks or fruit out of trees.

STAGE 4; Fire Alter. Could start off with building a camp fire/ fire pit, or lava bucket on the north side of the circle. The 4 imbuing objects could be a torch, redstone/sulfur, lava bucket, and an orange colored flower placed in the for corners. Transforming it into the Altar of Flames. Examples of fire magic can be shoot fire balls, flame damage on weapons, instantly cook food, remove several source blocks of water at once, smelting.

STAGE 5; Spirit Alter. It will be the large alter in the center of the circle. Start by placing a vanilla alter in the center and charge 4 objects in the element altars then putting them in the center alter to activate it, becoming the Altar of One/Spirit. Examples of spirit magic could be teleporting, impregnating livestock, denominational travel, instantly materialize food.

To everyone that reads this. Please do not mistake the examples as my suggestion. They are there just so you can understand what I'm talking about. My suggestion is the circle and it's mechanics.

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What about a tired stave system? So you grab a log and a tier 2 knife, place the log down and right click with the knife to begin carving. You carve yourself a stafflike shape (customisable ofc) and then boom you have a simple wooden staff. You can't cast any spells with it yet.

Gathering up some rocks and flowers is your next task, once gathered you make some dyes and paint the rocks in a knapping interface, different patterns and different dyes, making runes.

With your staff and a plank of wood you make a staffaire table, you're presented with an interface and the runes you have in your inventory, by dragging the runes onto the interface and linking them by right clicking you design a spell. So let's say you pick 2 fire runes, a projectile rune and a heavy rune. You get a staff with a fireball spell that fires a slow moving but powerful projectile.

You don't need to refill your stave, but you suffer from cool downs and casting times.

You use a similar system for enchanting weapons.

This gives a relatively simple, yet heavily customisable system, allowing shamans and pyromaniacs to both be happy. Although, I have no idea how difficult this may be to code...

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I imagine there would be a desire, for balance reasons, to have magic users use up resources over time.  Keep in mind that the base game is minecraft.  It's about mining (or resource gathering, if not strictly mining).  So when you say they don't need to refill the staff, I think that would be unbalanced.  Unless there's something else they have to do to maintain their power - using materials to gain mana or something.  I'm making some leaps here and assuming that smithing will be very similar to TFC1 - it's a very good system - and likewise weapons and armor will degrade with use, as they currently do.  If it's true that 'warrior' equipment degrades with use in TFC2, I think mage equipment also should.

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Whenever I see this kind of destruction power described, ie "The Fire Staff" , the first thing that comes to my mind is players roasting bears and wild animals from far away in complete safety. 

I really hope we do not get things like that.

In games where players do have weapons that deal fire in this manner we also have giant monsters that would not succumb with one hit and actually need the combine effort of several players or a lot of strategy to be defeated. 

Someone described Magic as science that we do not understand yet. In the real world the little technology we have has set the human kind so apart from the natural world that we were able to multiply to more than 7 Billion individuals and completely unbalance the environment, making several species extinct. If magic of this kind was a reality, there would not be anything else alive as we would have destroyed all species.

Dev's have already a hard time balancing the game when based in real life animals and creatures.

When giving the players some power it always has to be a need to use that power, and there lies the challenge.

One idea would be to make the staff very destructive, but very slow to recharge, so players would only use in extreme situations, since they would not have a second shot.  

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I agree with you there Tony.  Regular missile weapons already seem pretty OP to me, so I share the feelings about ranged destructive magic.  There's probably a few ways to address it.  

 

-One would be to make the game mostly focus on non-damaging magic, with damaging stuff mainly at the very top tiers. 

 

-Make damage spells short ranged so you can't snipe mobs outside their sensing range.  I don't know what the animation possibilities are, but jets or fans of flame and electricity would be pretty cool. 

 

-Make ranged damage spells extremely expensive in materials or mana, so a player can't do them over and over ad-nauseam (actually, it would be kind of cool if using magic to much in short order made you nauseous!).

 

As far as mobs, I think it would be great if there were several different island races, each with strengths and weaknesses.  So one island might have orcs which are very tough, well armored, and resistant to weapons, but weak vs magic.  But another may have elves, which are decently armored but also resistant to magic.  As you move up in tiers there could be dragon-kin, who are immune to fire magic, resistant to most other magic, and average armor.    Another trolls, who don't have armor, but regenerate very fast (unless burned), and are fast with high damage.   If there is a variety of island-controlling races, the player may want to make a detour to get around an island that is more resistant to his particular class powers.

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   If there is a variety of island-controlling races, the player may want to make a detour to get around an island that is more resistant to his particular class powers.

If I understood correctly the way Bioxx referred to the progression system, I don't think players will be able to bypass an Island, as they will need to progress in a linear way.

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What I meant by 'detour' was instead of going straight west into an island that will be difficult for your class, you go south or north one island, and try to head west from there, hoping the races on those islands will be easier to beat.  Not just literally skip the island to the west for the next one west from that.   Ideally in a multiplayer environment, the players would balance their classes, and be able to take on about anything they come across, maybe.

Edited by Darmo
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Well, i guess i will write what i think about magic in FTC(earlier apologize for bad english, not my first language).

 

So what i have read so far is magic as "explosives e lighting with cool stuff", i like it, but i guess it just don't work with FTC(or minecraft in general), so here goes my two cents.

 

Enchanting magic(or what i call it), would be, at least the basic concept, "there is mana in the air" and it don't like to be in the air e like to be in liquids or solid or in animals. So how does all of it affect the player and the gameplay?

 

How Mana works

 

 

Mana could or would work together with the new weather system but more simplistic with only one number, and that number is the amount of mana in the island, for example 1, this number can represent the rate that mana can affect the player AND how it will change the environment and be the thing that defines how stronger the monster or enemy's on certain islands are, 1 for the weakest and high number being stronger monsters and others things, i didn't thing so deeply here.

Now the mana inside of objects would behave randomly but only in big quantities if something have enough of it, for example iron, this iron now have "magical proprieties" that can be lost or increase depend on how it's refined, or if it's on animals it can be harmful or beneficial, such as causing damage or making it stronger.

 

 

How it affect the player

 

With it's basic premise, it's to see how it can change the gameplay, the first it's how it affect the player, it's obvious that the mana it's also trying to "enter" in the player(and is wining), but at fixed rate that can change according to the quantity of mana the island may have, for instance if the concentration of the mana in one island is 1 the rate can be 0.1 per day, and the player may have a limit of holding only 100, on this rate the quantity of mana in the player body would only matter after nearly 2 in game years when it would have 74(here i put a arbitrary threshold of 75 but can be changed) and if the threshold become 75 or more it can give the player random status such as weaknesses or haste, if the threshold hits 85 the status increase in power and if reaches 95 it would have a random chance of killing the player. Of course the threshold could be when the player have "more than 100" and it would not chance the way it affect the player, after all i just say that the mana enters in the things i never said that it has to stop. ;)

 

 

 

Pottering(arts of potion making)

 

 

Now that "we" now how it affect the environment and the player how can we use ou get ride of it. Because mana enter on anything that also affect plants that may or may not have affects on plants that may develop some sort of thing that can be used, and the better way to use it is by the basics of alchemy boiling, drying or making it into powder, more advanced things may include distillates and let it brewing or fermenting it. The two basic thing that the player will want is a way to get rid of the mana and a way to use it to his benefit, for example the player found a plant that can be used if dried or boiled or something and mixture with fresh water that can get ride of the mana in his body or increase it(that can found more easily on island with less mana on them), or other plant that after processing can give him speed, haste, faster healing, but this kind of potion can or will(brioxx can decide it) increase the amount of mana in your body making it into a fine tuning for balance. And on higher tier he can make potions that may result on plants growing faster or instantly.

Thing on this way it has a lot o potential and part of the code(the affects of the potion) are already in the game making easier to program(at least i think so).

 

 

Tools, Weapons and Armors

 

 

With mana entering every thing, is obvious that weapons can be made better if mana into it, the matter is "How?". Pottering can obvious make poison to be used on arrows or swords, but maybe on the craft of the weapon itself mana can be "tunneled" in having positive effects depending on how you craft it. Now let's assume that you want to make a sword out of copper, for the "copper" to have magical proprieties it has to have more than "20%" of mana in it making it into mythirl copper(any mineral that have enough mana in it is named "mythirl ore name", or not maybe to see it you need some special skill or tool) but the smiting will not work because you just heat it on open air and its magical proprieties dissipate, to smith "mythil ores" you may need "mythirl coal" or charcoal soaked in "mana potion" and the same mana potion can be used during the processes of heating the ore to make that ore have magical proprieties, and that magical proprieties can have numerous effects such as increasing damage, durability or making dull, which for a sword sound awful but for a mace sounds wonderful, with every effect beneficial to the tool or not(like having dull for a sword cutting it's piercing damage for a half and increasing the slash). In the begging the smith may not have a or on it. but later being able to control to a certain extend what that of "bonus" the tool could have. I will refrain for what type of "bonus" i would add because i think most vanilla enchants can go into here such as unbreakable, smite, luck of the sea or protection. But others obvious not, such as infinite or fire aspect(i put them in other category)

 

Leather could also have magic into them and you being able to use magic potion to soaked them in to have the same or different proprieties. And other materials too off course.

 

 

Runes

 

 

Well the last thing i have thing of(at least for now) are the runes. And this would be how you could possible "code" magic to make stuff, the better the thing that where you are written it the more you can put there, gems being the best thing thing ever and dirt....... not so much. Noe the way that you could possible "code" the runes could be some kind of language with the basic 4,6 or 7(depending on what you are counting) elements/aspects/categories(whatever you wanna call it). The "language" would be the water,earth,air,fire elements with or not the inclusion of light,dark and magic/attributeless(whatever you want).

How this would work is very simple, you pick a rune and engrave it into something, or on gems its easier because they have "high absorption rate of mana in the air" or "can take it from the player". And for a matter of course, you could engrave them in that copper sword that have a natural ability thanks to magic already being contented there. With copper being the lowest tier material, it could have only one slot to runes and with higher tier materials having more slots, and your copper sword with the fire rune can put mobs on fire, or with the air one having a faster swing rate. Now with material that have more than one slot, there could be three ways that runes can interact with each other, the first would be, no interaction, you put fire and air and receive both bonus. Or you could them work together fire rune + air rune = fire to mob hit and mobs nearby. And the third one combine both to do something else, such as combining the air rune an the fire rune to make a "weak fire ball" or "to lit the mob on fire without hitting but still in certain range". This way runes em natural abilities of the tool them somehow work together, and of course the player wouldn't be able to just spam the buttons, it could be a cool down or something else to balance the system.

 

 

Gemcraft

 

 

What can i say, gems are kind of important to any magic and always have the highest affinities(normally by color or quality). SO this can be made into two ways, the first simple and dirt, the gem already came with some kind of magic into it, like magnetic(imã for items) or giving fast regen, or fireball, or "magic" in general. The second way would be that gems are the better things in the word to write runes and make into magical tools that can help the player, such as magnet  gem, or light gem that create a temporary source of light(you already have torches that go out by then selves), or a better flint and steal(iron) and such. Both ideas can be made together or separated but a way to make them less "OP" is to make them have "cool down" like for the torch one 5 seconds but one that make an island catch fire and summons a hurricane and tsunami together with a earthquake need a time do charge and recharge off 100 years(only an example, but it would be cool). Of course the gems could be imbued into a staff/wand/scepter(whatever you wanna call it) and have a lesser cool down or be more powerful.

 

 

 

 

I don't know if my point got across, and there is probably quiet a few errors and problems with the logic of it all, mas i guess that it work. Now that i have killed some time, i will watched some videos.

 

Thanks for you time reading.

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I'd rather like a more subtle approach to magic, much like in Lord of the Rings. Certain armor and/or jewelry could be made OP once per server, as it would create competition; "I have finally acquired the lost sword of _bob_1234! All shall love me and despair!"

Also, certain powerful objects could be scattered across the world, believed to be the relics of creation, however a high understanding of magic is required to exploit these items; to a peasant it is just a rusty cracked teapot.

A few rare and once-per-world structures could be also found; look at the game Endless Legend and it's anomalies. Magical fossils, arcane hot springs and mysterious trees that attract airborne metal dust on their branches and glisten with beauty. Bushes of everlasting fire, bubbling fields of gold and oil, huge bioluminescent mushrooms, magically fertile earth, wild patches of exotic herbs.

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Actually, I really like gxbits idea of the LOTR like system, with awesome anomalies like out of endless legend it'd make the world feel less normal and increase replay ability...

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Thanks! I'd very much like the idea of magic being essentially still a mystery no matter how far you progress. The notion of it being not fully harnessed, like electricity in modern world, but rather a bunch of anomalies found naturally. I believe the player should have comparatively little power and knowhow in matters magical, at least just by himself.

Also, I absolutely resent the idea of NPC's. At most I'd accept a forest spirit or an ancient golem.

Edited by gxblt
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Personally, I think the best expansion of TFC's exploration-based gameplay would be sacrificial pits. Create a Sacrificial Altar, and when activated, it creates a permanent flame. Interacting with the flame tells you what it wants and what you'll get-drop in a stack of Rotten Flesh, get a small gem; drop in a bar of tool metal, get an enchantment, drop in a bar of tool metal AND a tool AND a stack of Rotten Flesh, get an enchanted weapon-or a spell in the form of a weapon ala TES' Bound Weapons. Of course, there's no guarantee that it's going to want something that simple-it might want meat from an animal that only spawns several thousand blocks away, or a stack of Reeds, or a Lilypad, or some Olives, or...you get the idea. Might even want some Galena. Wouldn't that be nice.

I also like the idea of potionmaking being more akin to smithing than to vanilla's Infusions. That said, I'd very much like to bring back the Villager Curing mechanic-even if Villager settlements aren't the idea, having a cured Villager drop something useful before disappearing into the sky is fun and could even be a little heartwarming.

 

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This actually looks really cool, It would definitely give gems a place in the spotlight that they deserve. I've always felt that gems should be used for something other than protection meters, and this might be it! 

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I think it is fun to collect gems just for display, but I am totally not against them having a use for magic either!

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On 5/6/2016 at 0:47 PM, Pwnlord said:

Personally, I think the best expansion of TFC's exploration-based gameplay would be sacrificial pits. Create a Sacrificial Altar, and when activated, it creates a permanent flame. Interacting with the flame tells you what it wants and what you'll get-drop in a stack of Rotten Flesh, get a small gem; drop in a bar of tool metal, get an enchantment, drop in a bar of tool metal AND a tool AND a stack of Rotten Flesh, get an enchanted weapon-or a spell in the form of a weapon ala TES' Bound Weapons. Of course, there's no guarantee that it's going to want something that simple-it might want meat from an animal that only spawns several thousand blocks away, or a stack of Reeds, or a Lilypad, or some Olives, or...you get the idea. Might even want some Galena. Wouldn't that be nice.

Reminds me of the altar under the Mages Guild in Skyrim. Sortof.

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