Siege weapons

[Scooterdanny 285]

Hello again,The basic premise of my idea is of adding period accurate siege weapons, now there are a plethora ranging from the Trebuchet, the Batista, the catapult, the large board shields (forgetting what they are called, but they were for sieges) and maybe even rudimentary rockets or cannons. While the latter may seem out of play, maybe, although they were period accurate even before the 17th century (think ottoman bombard) What i envision, is something similar in nature to the cannon from Balkon's weapon mod, as in a "vehicle" that the player could get into, and operate some of them, or if we want to be more technical, there could be a little ui that would pop up, provided the ability to change angles, and what they are loaded with etc. I envision this a very interesting dynamic if added, imagine; sitting inside your heavily fortified town, when suddenly, a portion of the wall explodes, after you recover, you notice an array of trebuchets firing flaming boulders (historically they flung rocks/rubble, flaming rocks, dead cows and diseased corpses (bio weapons) and other things. I would appreciate an honest evaluation of this idea.

[dukejuke 47]

i just want to mine using an enormous cannon.......

[Jed1314 420]

I like, no, love, the idea of siege weapons in game. I do think that the implementation of them would need to be paired with stronger "wall" blocks or something similar though, as right now it would be easier to simply mine through the wall. +1 for the concept though

[Omri100 7]

Finally there will be use for sulfur and for the stronger wall blocks: How about reinforced bricks: Molten stones merged with metal rods can do the job i guess

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

Finally there will be use for sulfur and for the stronger wall blocks: How about reinforced bricks: Molten stones merged with metal rods can do the job i guess

just because it's suggested doesn't mean it will be implemented.

that said, Bioxx and I have absolutely no comment on this one way or the other.

[Omri100 7]

just because it's suggested doesn't mean it will be implemented.

that said, Bioxx and I have absolutely no comment on this one way or the other.

Who said it will? just saying that if this thing will be implemented there will be a use lol :3

[Jed1314 420]

just because it's suggested doesn't mean it will be implemented.

that said, Bioxx and I have absolutely no comment on this one way or the other.

Well, I could think of a few arguments for and against this, if you're interested:

For:

Could make SMP combat a lot more interesting, especially attacking other towns

Should add realism (I know this is a non factor for you guys, but it is worth stating nonetheless) if paired with stronger user placed blocks as destroying towns would be more difficult and would require specialized equipment

Might make griefing harder, as specialized equipment would be required to do an effective job

Against:

Would give griefers a tool capable of mass block devastation

Could be abused to destroy landscapes, which would have a negative effect of aesthetic focused servers

Could be argued that it is outside of the mods scope, as it is intended to be a general overhaul, not a combat mod

Ultimately, I would love to see this implemented, but then, I am naturally biased towards it because my vision for my server would be greatly complemented by the addition of features like this. For many people it would have no effect on the gameplay at all as they use TFC as a more challenging building/creative community focused game. It would be interesting to see what some of the more building orientated players would have to say about this

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

Well, I could think of a few arguments for and against this, if you're interested:

For:

Could make SMP combat a lot more interesting, especially attacking other towns

Should add realism (I know this is a non factor for you guys, but it is worth stating nonetheless) if paired with stronger user placed blocks as destroying towns would be more difficult and would require specialized equipment

Might make griefing harder, as specialized equipment would be required to do an effective job

Against:

Would give griefers a tool capable of mass block devastation

Could be abused to destroy landscapes, which would have a negative effect of aesthetic focused servers

Could be argued that it is outside of the mods scope, as it is intended to be a general overhaul, not a combat mod

Ultimately, I would love to see this implemented, but then, I am naturally biased towards it because my vision for my server would be greatly complemented by the addition of features like this. For many people it would have no effect on the gameplay at all as they use TFC as a more challenging building/creative community focused game. It would be interesting to see what some of the more building orientated players would have to say about this

I have no opinion at this time.

[Jed1314 420]

I have no opinion at this time.

I won't labor it then, for fear of turning you against the idea simply because you were pestered about it :L

[psychotimo 5]

well just keep it in mind for a while and try again when TFC is further along in it's development, siege weapons could be a good idea, but since they're still working on more basic stuff (husbandry,agriculture,...) they probably just don't have time to think about this kind of stuff ATM

oh and @jed1314 as for siege weapons being possible griefing tools, i presume that if they ever get implemented that you'd need quite a lot of resources to be able to make them, no simple stoneage caveman should be able to make siegeweapons (also you might be able to give only certain trusted peeps permission for it etc)

[antimattergizmo 41]

I had a short mention of siege weapons a while back. I really enjoy the idea and think it would give the skilled mason artisans more of a purpose to their town. Balancing the materials for maximum reinforcement. Just can't get the thought out of my mined a a town being assaulted by a plague of diseased cows flopping onto every inch of the city.

[Murry Folt 3]

Could be argued that it is outside of the mods scope, as it is intended to be a general overhaul, not a combat mod

Maybe once developement of the mod has progressed to the point where stuff like this could be added in (meaning they've already finished all the civ stuff they want and argiculture is long taken care of), there could simply be two versions of the mod. One is a Lite version, which is just the overhaul, and then a full version/combat overhaul patch that adds lots of stuff that doesn't quite seem to fit the general feel of the rest of the mod. This patch could include all the siege equipment, extra in depth combat techniques, extra diverse armors, etc.

[Jed1314 420]

-snip-

A lot of people have been suggesting this. I don't think the dev's want to split the mod into different packages. After all, what is the point in developing features for part of your fanbase ?

I would rather see other players develop "addons" for TFC to add less mainstream features. That said, I would like TFC to address and fix combat. All indications from Dunk suggest this (combat overhauling, not siege weapons) is going to happen, so that is awesome news

[Murry Folt 3]

I would rather see other players develop "addons"

Probably a better way to do it, unless the devs wanted to make a few official addons themself. A much better way to phrase it then saying two different versions.

[Jed1314 420]

Probably a better way to do it, unless the devs wanted to make a few official addons themself. A much better way to phrase it then saying two different versions.

Yeah, modular is always better than fixed, it allows for much more user customization of their game experience. However, it has to be managed so that the core features are non-modular. The real tricky question is answering which features are "core" and which aren't. For example, this agriculture update will be a core feature, but a lot of what it could support could probably be deemed optional, yet by not adding on that module, you ruin whole sections of the game. A conundrum indeed

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

I do think that the implementation of them would need to be paired with stronger "wall" blocks or something similar though, as right now it would be easier to simply mine through the wall.

I just had an idea that could both help to balance the "simply mine through" thing, while not entirely removing the option to do so. At least, in my opinion.

Make any kind of tool slow the player down a bit, and a ton if combined with the planned armour slow down. This would not only affect you if you are using the tool, but it would also affect you by simply having the tool somewhere in the inventory, even in the crafting grid. It would negatively affect your hit rate as well. The idea is that one couldn't go there and mine through the wall without being in extreme danger, because fighting back to the enemy players will be something nearly impossible while you have a digging tool on you and armor -and if you aren't wearing armor, you will be plain r+ped by them :-. The mining through strategy would be something only used in raids, when the enemy isn't aware of the attack danger, but even there it would be possible to notice somebody is digging in/down the wall. Using this in a war, when the enemies know you are gonna try to go through the walls, will be an impossible task as the enemy will be looking around constantly, and will fight you if they ever spot you. This, along with reinforced blocks that take longer to break -and still, are breakable- will make the mining through option not impossible, but still dangerous.

Also... if you are gonna suggest siege weapons, you just can't miss THIS:

I freakin love battering rams <3 they are a MUST HAVE for me...

They would be very, very large wooden structures, with multiple players inside them using the central log to create a gap through the enemy's walls, inside a fire/arrow resistant structure. On it's own is pretty weak, as any armored group of enemies will be able to go inside and kill the mens inside the ram; however, if properly protected by an army, the battering ram can be the best option when you simply want to go through enemy's walls.

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

A lot of people have been suggesting this. I don't think the dev's want to split the mod into different packages. After all, what is the point in developing features for part of your fanbase ?

I would rather see other players develop "addons" for TFC to add less mainstream features. That said, I would like TFC to address and fix combat. All indications from Dunk suggest this (combat overhauling, not siege weapons) is going to happen, so that is awesome news

There are only two of us, Bioxx and I, creating TFC, so yeah, different versions is out of the question. And while Bioxx allows his code to be used for inspiration, he does not want people using it outright, which generally means no add-ons.

(I personally am quite proud of the code I've written and would prefer if no one looked at it at all... I haven't seen any other mods handle animals the way I do, and I'd like to keep it that way.)

So your kinda stuck with us. =P

[psychotimo 5]

There are only two of us, Bioxx and I, creating TFC, so yeah, different versions is out of the question. And while Bioxx allows his code to be used for inspiration, he does not want people using it outright, which generally means no add-ons.

(I personally am quite proud of the code I've written and would prefer if no one looked at it at all... I haven't seen any other mods handle animals the way I do, and I'd like to keep it that way.)

So your kinda stuck with us. =P

NOOO we're doomed :'(

nah, not really ^^

on a more serious note: so you probably won't release your code once TFC is 'finished', will you be releasing any other means to help peeps to make plugins/mods for tfc?

my knowledge about coding isn't really all that big, i was just thinking along the lines of a 'plug-in dev kit' kinda like bethesda releases with some of their games, i know that it's something entirely different with MC, but still, could be nice to see peeps make plug-ins/mods for tfc, of course they could also completely destroy the idea behind TFC and make some mods that fuck up the mod :S

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

NOOO we're doomed :'(

nah, not really ^^

on a more serious note: so you probably won't release your code once TFC is 'finished', will you be releasing any other means to help peeps to make plugins/mods for tfc?

my knowledge about coding isn't really all that big, i was just thinking along the lines of a 'plug-in dev kit' kinda like bethesda releases with some of their games, i know that it's something entirely different with MC, but still, could be nice to see peeps make plug-ins/mods for tfc, of course they could also completely destroy the idea behind TFC and make some mods that fuck up the mod :S

kinda dug your own grave a bit there didn't you? Way to sell it lol. But i don't know right now. Depends how we feel about the mod.

[Jed1314 420]

There are only two of us, Bioxx and I, creating TFC, so yeah, different versions is out of the question. And while Bioxx allows his code to be used for inspiration, he does not want people using it outright, which generally means no add-ons.

(I personally am quite proud of the code I've written and would prefer if no one looked at it at all... I haven't seen any other mods handle animals the way I do, and I'd like to keep it that way.)

So your kinda stuck with us. =P

I hope by now you know me well enough to know I don't mean this in any critical way at all ..

I'm a little saddened by that Don't get me wrong, you two do a fantastic job, and you have yet to release a feature I didn't like, and I can understand wanting to keep the integrity and ownership of your original work (hell, I think I would probably feel the same in your position), but I was hoping you would implement a way for the community to develop addons for the game.

The way I see it, TFC is barely a mod, it's practically a whole new game. I'd love to see users able to develop plugins to cater for specific player demographics, just like they can right now for minecraft. I feel like you guys would do an API right though, whereas I feel like this official Mojang API is going to be a heap of steaming shit.

Basically, I hope you reconsider this one day :/

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

I hope by now you know me well enough to know I don't mean this in any critical way at all ..

I'm a little saddened by that Don't get me wrong, you two do a fantastic job, and you have yet to release a feature I didn't like, and I can understand wanting to keep the integrity and ownership of your original work (hell, I think I would probably feel the same in your position), but I was hoping you would implement a way for the community to develop addons for the game.

The way I see it, TFC is barely a mod, it's practically a whole new game. I'd love to see users able to develop plugins to cater for specific player demographics, just like they can right now for minecraft. I feel like you guys would do an API right though, whereas I feel like this official Mojang API is going to be a heap of steaming shit.

Basically, I hope you reconsider this one day :/

I know what you mean, and i appreciate the support. Frankly, we don't trust a lot of you (not pointing any fingers) to uphold the integrity of this mod, given all of the suggestions we've received for features we don't think agree with it. Unless we make some very special exceptions under strict guidelines, I don't think we can let others develop add ons to TFC.

[Jed1314 420]

I know what you mean, and i appreciate the support. Frankly, we don't trust a lot of you (not pointing any fingers) to uphold the integrity of this mod, given all of the suggestions we've received for features we don't think agree with it. Unless we make some very special exceptions under strict guidelines, I don't think we can let others develop add ons to TFC.

I think perhaps there is a middle ground here ?

I am with you, in that there are few people here I would trust to develop quality addons, perhaps you could simply release the tools to those few deemed to be "trustworthy" ?

I know it would be a lot of effort to develop an API for such a small audience, but the benefits could be great in terms of player experience.

Although, maybe I am looking at this the wrong way

If you were to do such a limited release, there would be no point in an API, right ? :L

I actually really appreciate the hesitance you show here. This phrase, in particular is very refreshing:

Frankly, we don't trust a lot of you (not pointing any fingers) to uphold the integrity of this mod

I sometimes feel like certain developers lose sight of a creations integrity in order to please the masses. I'm now more confident than ever that the community can trust you guys to do what is right, not what is popular

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

I think perhaps there is a middle ground here ?

I am with you, in that there are few people here I would trust to develop quality addons, perhaps you could simply release the tools to those few deemed to be "trustworthy" ?

I know it would be a lot of effort to develop an API for such a small audience, but the benefits could be great in terms of player experience.

Although, maybe I am looking at this the wrong way

If you were to do such a limited release, there would be no point in an API, right ? :L

I actually really appreciate the hesitance you show here. This phrase, in particular is very refreshing:

I sometimes feel like certain developers lose sight of a creations integrity in order to please the masses. I'm now more confident than ever that the community can trust you guys to do what is right, not what is popular

We would probably select a few of you who we deemed able to continue doing what we think needs to be done (assuming we don't have the time) or making your own add-ons, but we'd have to kind of act like your boss, requesting status updates and making sure you stuck with the mod's core values.

[Jed1314 420]

We would probably select a few of you who we deemed able to continue doing what we think needs to be done (assuming we don't have the time) or making your own add-ons, but we'd have to kind of act like your boss, requesting status updates and making sure you stuck with the mod's core values.

If you did any less, I would be shocked and appalled

Man, I really wish I could code now (boy, was that presumptuous of me :L :L)

As always, I trust in you and Bioxx to find the best solution to this very sensitive issue

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

Hmm .-. i just have a question, right now...

If TFC is becoming a game in it's own, how hard it will be for you guys to make it? i mean, supposing Bioxx and you drop what you are doing and start coding non-stop to make it, could we see the first independant release before MC 1.4 -and before the so feared modding API-? I know it's most likely a no, i would in fact be surprised if it wasn't... but i just wanted to know ._.