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Srgnoodles

Casted Tools and Sharpening

21 posts in this topic

okay, so now that casted tools are a thing, it seemed appropriate to make a topic on this

 

so, if you cast a tool head, it's not going to be sharp when it comes out of that cast, and thus would be rather useless

 

so things with a blade, like axes, swords, scythes, saws and the like, would need to be sharpened on a grindstone before you could use them for tools

for tools where the blade is less necessary, (shovels maces picks, hoes, hammers) could be used right out of the mold

the grindstone could be simply made with some raw stone and sticks to make a simple wheel for sharpening tools,

 

right clicking on the stonel would open a GUI where you put the tool head in. then you go to the side, where there would be a small pedal, where you right click like a bellows to turn the wheel and gradually sharpen the tool, going from dull-->edged-->slightly sharp--> ready for use, but if you don't keep an eye on the tool as you're sharpening it, you could over grind it and reduce the durrability, or worse break the tool head, so you have to pay attention when sharpening your tools

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I like this. And it does make me facepalm whenever I pour myself a perfect axe head.

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It does strike me as odd that you can trivially get a perfect tool by casting, when doing the same thing by forging is more problematic.

 

Really, cast tools should be weaker than forged.  There should be an incentive to make an anvil other than to make sheets.

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early game item to sharp stuff could be a sharpening stone. 1 use each stone

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tool with blade (sword, axe...) - sharpening

tool without blade (hammer, pickaxe ...) - hardening, you simple heat tool head up to some temp (diff metal diff temp) and then drop it in water (Q), this will add some % of durability

what you think?

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tool without blade (hammer, pickaxe ...) - hardening, you simple heat tool head up to some temp (diff metal diff temp) and then drop it in water (Q), this will add some % of durability

what you think?

 

 

 Seems rather counter productive, heating and cooling metal in quick succession causes it to become brittle, which makes it break easier. and technically pickaxes are sharp tools. I agree wholly that a grinding stone should be a thing, and it should be made so things like swords get sharper but lose durability because you're grinding away the tools material, so you could make a really sharp sword that breaks faster, or a rather dull blade which will last you much longer. Weighted tools should get tool weights, just stone or heavy metal rings to go close to the center of the tool heads mass, giving it more kick but also causing it to break faster. Equally thinks like shovels and axes should work the same way, the more you refine them the faster or stronger they are, but they break faster.

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 Seems rather counter productive, heating and cooling metal in quick succession causes it to become brittle, which makes it break easier. and technically pickaxes are sharp tools. I agree wholly that a grinding stone should be a thing, and it should be made so things like swords get sharper but lose durability because you're grinding away the tools material, so you could make a really sharp sword that breaks faster, or a rather dull blade which will last you much longer. Weighted tools should get tool weights, just stone or heavy metal rings to go close to the center of the tool heads mass, giving it more kick but also causing it to break faster. Equally thinks like shovels and axes should work the same way, the more you refine them the faster or stronger they are, but they break faster.

 
 
On the contrary, heating up the forged item and then plunging it in a barrel of cold water is a very much used method in antiquity for hardening and finishing metal tools and swords, it was called tempering. I have tested it myself when making arrowheads for my bow and arrow IRL, heating up the arrow heads and immediatly cooling them off would harden them and make them blunt less when hitting hard objects.
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Not just in antiquity, either.  To this day we heat up steel and rapidly quench it to produce stronger microstructures.  The greater strength does come with greater brittleness, it's true, but it's generally well worth the tradeoff.  (Plus there's tricks to get around that, too.)

 

I'm not positive this works in things other than steel, though.  It has to do with the detailed microstructures of iron-carbon alloys - which is a huge subject in itself.

 

Also, I don't think it would be plausible to do this to *repair* a steel item.  You'd do it when it was first made, to give it extra durability.

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Not just in antiquity, either.  To this day we heat up steel and rapidly quench it to produce stronger microstructures.  The greater strength does come with greater brittleness, it's true, but it's generally well worth the tradeoff.  (Plus there's tricks to get around that, too.)

 

I'm not positive this works in things other than steel, though.  It has to do with the detailed microstructures of iron-carbon alloys - which is a huge subject in itself.

 

Also, I don't think it would be plausible to do this to *repair* a steel item.  You'd do it when it was first made, to give it extra durability.

exactly, repair and maintenence is an entirely different story, this is about sharpening tools to finish them while you're first making the tool

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IM Professional Opinion, Casted tools should need extra working but nothing too complicated, a whetstone would be idea to sharpen most tools.

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I can see, say, working a copper pickaxe on a (stone) anvil would boost its mining power, because copper work hardens, and a harder pickaxe delivers more energy into the stone instead of deforming itself. It will not make it tougher (more durable), though, because that's a different property.

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I could see this sort of thing translating into a more involved equipment management subgame where tools and weapons can lose their effectiveness over time and be resharpened, while armor could have the dents beaten out or the holes in the leather patched and sewn, etc.

 

I might put some thought into that. 

 

But more on-topic, yes. I am always wildly in favor of more work stations. More excuses to build bigger and more interesting structures. And what you say makes sense; grindstones for sharpening blunt tools is an excellent idea. We could even have variable 'qualities' for tools based on what processes you went through to make it.

You could just pour copper into an axe mold, but at that point what you have is:

 

Axehead

Dull

Weak

Glowing Dark Red *** (or whatever)

 

At that point you could quench it in a bath to remove the Weak aspect, and then apply it to the grindstone to remove the Dull aspect.

 

Dull tools take longer to perform their tasks. Weak tools have lowered durability. This would put a higher ceiling on smithing technology and skill, allowing more advanced smiths with better tools to make better equipment.

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I could see this sort of thing translating into a more involved equipment management subgame where tools and weapons can lose their effectiveness over time and be resharpened, while armor could have the dents beaten out or the holes in the leather patched and sewn, etc.

 

I might put some thought into that. 

 

But more on-topic, yes. I am always wildly in favor of more work stations. More excuses to build bigger and more interesting structures. And what you say makes sense; grindstones for sharpening blunt tools is an excellent idea. We could even have variable 'qualities' for tools based on what processes you went through to make it.

You could just pour copper into an axe mold, but at that point what you have is:

 

Axehead

Dull

Weak

Glowing Dark Red *** (or whatever)

 

At that point you could quench it in a bath to remove the Weak aspect, and then apply it to the grindstone to remove the Dull aspect.

 

Dull tools take longer to perform their tasks. Weak tools have lowered durability. This would put a higher ceiling on smithing technology and skill, allowing more advanced smiths with better tools to make better equipment.

 

So I think the weak/dull thing should each have 4 stages.

dull, normal, sharp, over-sharpened,

Weak, normal, strong, brittle.

Each stage can have a different amount of *s till it moves onto the next stage, depending on the tool type and metal type.

You sharpen tools to make it sharper, at the cost of some durability. You heat and cool the tool head to make it harder.

Tools will turn dull after many uses and will have to be re-sharpened.

 

A dull tool will take longer to do an action and deal less damage, normal tools are normal, and sharp tools will deal more damage and work faster. However, a over-sharpened tool will be faster and deal lots more damage than sharp tools, but will lose sharpness and durability much. much faster.

 

A weak tool will have less durability than normal, normal tools will have normal durability, and hard tools will have more durability. However, a brittle tool will get have the same durability as a weal tool, and  lose durability much faster

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yeah, it would fit perfectly for multiplayer server players.
Those new elements could encourage the player to go back at the village to see the blacksmith (a skillfull player in those tasks) for best and effective repairing.
 
To add deep system like those proposed by AllenWV for all professions (brewing, leather working, food preparations) could create new gameplay elements and why not creation of village organisations.
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 Seems rather counter productive, heating and cooling metal in quick succession causes it to become brittle, which makes it break easier. and technically pickaxes are sharp tools. I agree wholly that a grinding stone should be a thing, and it should be made so things like swords get sharper but lose durability because you're grinding away the tools material, so you could make a really sharp sword that breaks faster, or a rather dull blade which will last you much longer. Weighted tools should get tool weights, just stone or heavy metal rings to go close to the center of the tool heads mass, giving it more kick but also causing it to break faster. Equally thinks like shovels and axes should work the same way, the more you refine them the faster or stronger they are, but they break faster.

 

 

On the contrary, heating up the forged item and then plunging it in a barrel of cold water is a very much used method in antiquity for hardening and finishing metal tools and swords, it was called tempering. I have tested it myself when making arrowheads for my bow and arrow IRL, heating up the arrow heads and immediatly cooling them off would harden them and make them blunt less when hitting hard objects.

 

 

technically, you guys are both right

Tempering does make a tool harder, but it also makes it more brittle.

So while some parts of a tool were tempered to make hard, some parts where left soft.

for example, a chisel had a tempered head, but the body was left soft and flexible. otherwise, the chisel would not be able to withstand the hammering.

Swords had a soft, flexible body, but a hard edge, so it can cut, but not break when hit.

(of course, when I say soft and flexible, I mean as soft and flexible as metal gets, not soft soft or anything)

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already said it.... sooo yeah enjoy .... http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/4320-grinding-wheelgrindstone/?hl=grindstone

 

and dunk said no by the way not to burst your bubble or anything.

 

Dunk: "I did a looong post a while back outlining an idea I had for just such a feature. Bioxx and i discussed it, and in the end, we decided it wouldn't work or fit well into the mod."

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Dunk: "I did a looong post a while back outlining an idea I had for just such a feature. Bioxx and i discussed it, and in the end, we decided it wouldn't work or fit well into the mod."

 

I want to see that long post

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the link above Allen

 

that's Rev's post about sharpining, I want to see the post Dunk made about sharpining

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I like the Loom system for making cloth, how about a rotating grindstone (like the ones in Skyrim) that you have to spend some time grinding a tool to make it useable. It would be sort of like scraping leather except you are doing it along the edge of the blade of the tool, and if you accidentally overgrind a section you will lose a little durability.

 

To use the grindstone you have to right-click to sit on it, once sitting you have to press Space repeatedly to spin the wheel (or hold Space to go at maximum speed). Then you hold left click along the edge to grind different sections of the tool, or click on a section to grind it a small amount but possibly ding that section. In other words, the system would promote careful pedaling & sweeping runs across the edge, like how actual sharpening is done.

 

For example, each part of the edge would have several states: Unsharpened (cast tools), Dull (smithed tool), Fine, Sharp, and Honed.

 

An unsharpened edge will work, but will take much longer to get anything done (80% slower?)

A Dull edge will be much better but still take longer than usual (35% slower?)

A Fine edge is useable, maybe 15% slower than current. If you are careless when sharpening this is where you'll end up.

A Sharp edge is what current tools are. However at around half of the tool's uses, it will become Fine/Dull and need to be re-sharpened.

A Honed edge will provide a bonus for skilled sharpeners (15% faster?). However, the Honed edge will wear off relatively quickly (1/4 of the tool's uses) and become Sharp.

 

The key to this is that you could re-sharpen your tool, but as you take off material your durability goes down. To reach Sharp/Honed you may even use a leather strap on the wheel with an abrasive.

 

As with the Quern, the wheel will eventually wear out and a new one will need to be chiseled

An early-game option for sharpening would be using a stone, but the best you could do is get a Fine edge as the stone surface is rough and areas of the edge will sharpen unevenly.

 

I'm all for the minigames that add interesting interaction while also being fun. This would be a minigame that lets people develop their skills with a balanced benefit (and of course bump up the difficulty of the game a bit :)

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