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Dominicinator

Just A Little Archery Tweak.

29 posts in this topic

Currently, Archery in TFC is very, very, very, very, very, very slow compared to how it was done when archery was useful.

http://sobadsogood.com/2015/01/26/deadly-archer-will-impress-you-his-ancient-archery-skills-lars-andersen/?utm_content=bufferdfb83&utm_medium=social&utm_source=plus.google.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Pretty much says it all, I don't know how accurate it is, but I think we can say that people that lived 1000+ years ago could definitely shoot very skillfully and quick, faster even then how vannilla MC portrays it, which is strangely more accurate then TFC. A lot of the claims in the video are probably horribly inaccurate, but that doesn't mean they're completely wrong, obviously he *is* shooting very quickly.

I understand we're not trying to be perfectly realistic, just believable...

But this isn't believable, at least not very.

Edited by Dominicinator
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It intentionally takes a long time to draw a bow in TFC to counteract the fact that you can 1-hit most mobs when the bow is fully drawn.

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The man in that video has earned my permanent respect.

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Interesting video Dominicator. But the methode used in this video was mainly used for combat. I rather use the bow to hunt in Terra Firma Craft. For hunting this methode may be accurate enought, but it certainly is too loud. In reallife a deer for example is able to "jump the string". That means he jumps at the slightest sound, the bow make, when the arrow leaves the string.

So when native americans whent hunting, they took extra precaution, the sneaked up to their prey quietly, they drew back the string slowly an took aim steadily. It was a small process, but it was necessary. They stalked the deer vor maybe three days an when the are careless for just a second, all their work was in vain.

 

So I think the way the bow is coded is the closest you could get to realism.

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They stalked the deer vor maybe three days an when the are careless for just a second, all their work was in vain.
 
 
 
 
What? Three days? Why would you ever stalk something for that long? You would never stalk something for more than a few hours. What would you eat or drink? Where would you go to the bathroom? How do you stalk something in your sleep, or did they just not sleep for three days for a scrawny little deer? Doesn't the deer eat or sleep? Why not sneak up while it is asleep and kill it then?
 
Also, the method in that video was not "mainly used for combat". The shooting in the video is stunt shooting, exhibition, circus. Meant to be flashy and wow the crowd but not useful in a combat situation.
 
Although I agree with you that the slow draw in TFC is appropriate to hunting and is believable.
Edited by Hector49er
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Well, you don't go into the woods, search for a few hours and find a deer. You first need to find tracks and follow these tracks, until you will eventually find the deer. And since the deer does not stand still, and also is on the move, it may take some time.

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I think the wording stalking here led to a mistake, is not uncommon for primitive hunters to follow tracks for 3 days before they actually make sight with their prey.

I know the OP is about archery, but to be more realistic or believable the skeletons arrows should also kill you in one hit, something that I don't think anyone here would want. 

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I am mostly interested in bows as a pvp option, I'm currently trying to put together a small Fortress/Siege type of thing.

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The bow should be the ultimate long range weapon late-game.

Much more than the javelins which I don't like the physics at all. Javelins suck!!

(but the rest of the game is awesome) :)

Edited by landryx
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So I think the way the bow is coded is the closest you could get to realism.

 

Except, i only use the bow as a sniper rifle against hordes of zombies... and I charge deer with a sword like a maniac. In real life the deer would far outpace me but in TFC they are so glitchy you can easily tap them. Perhaps I'm just playing the game differently than you :D

Edited by Terex
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Maybe a hunting bow could replace the current one and be better for peaceful mobs and another one could be added that was good for hostile mobs and other players?

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Simply halving both the damage and the full draw time on the current bow and arrows would make archery a lot more palatable without affecting balance too much.  Right now it takes around 10 seconds, and you have to draw for 3-4 seconds just to fire an arrow.  That's absurd.  I mean, Halo's Spartan Laser takes four seconds to charge, to make an over-the-top comparison.  I can't think of any game that requires you to charge up a skill or weapon for ten seconds and for good reason, it sucks as a game mechanic.

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Simply halving both the damage and the full draw time on the current bow and arrows would make archery a lot more palatable without affecting balance too much.  Right now it takes around 10 seconds, and you have to draw for 3-4 seconds just to fire an arrow.  That's absurd.  I mean, Halo's Spartan Laser takes four seconds to charge, to make an over-the-top comparison.  I can't think of any game that requires you to charge up a skill or weapon for ten seconds and for good reason, it sucks as a game mechanic.

Resurrecting on WOW has a 10 second base cast time.

 

Imagine how overpowered it would be if you could rez someone instantly in an arena, instead of having to wait 6 seconds to get out of combat, then cast a 10 second cast.

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Resurrecting on WOW has a 10 second base cast time.

 

Imagine how overpowered it would be if you could rez someone instantly in an arena, instead of having to wait 6 seconds to get out of combat, then cast a 10 second cast.

Exactly, rezzing is a special case.  Imagine if standard skills in WoW all had 10+ second cast times.  That's basically archery in TFC right now.

 

Look, arrows stack up to 16 right?  It would take more than two and a half minutes to fire 16 arrows at full charge.

 

Vanilla Minecraft smelting takes 10 seconds.  Drawing a bow in TFC takes the same amount of time as cooking iron ore into ingots in Vanilla.

 

TNT takes 4 seconds to explode.  You can detonate two blocks of TNT consecutively in the time it takes to draw a TFC bow.

 

I can't emphasize enough how slow it is.  OP used six "very"s.  If each "very" took one second to say, that's still four seconds faster than drawing a bow in TFC.  If it took you ten seconds to type a word, a 500-word essay would take an hour and a half to type non-stop.

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Look, arrows stack up to 16 right?  It would take more than two and a half minutes to fire 16 arrows at full charge.

 

Except that if you're doing the full 10-second charge, you'll only need 1 arrow unless you've got a hoard of 16 mobs you need to kill.

 

Also, technically speaking your suggestion of halving the draw time and the damage is already implemented. If you only draw the bow for 5 seconds, you can release it and it will do half the damage. Nobody is stopping you from not doing the full draw.

Edited by Kittychanley
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I still like using bows in TFC even though they aren't as quick to draw. I would rather see different types of bows for different uses than to see a change in draw time on the standard bow.

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I would be Ok with different arrows and bows, as long as they be based in real life and not magic.

For example:

A long bow for more distance.

A short bow for more speed but less damage.

As far as arrows:

Metal point for piercing armor.

Fire arrows are historically acurate.

Maybe a crushing arrow?

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The crushing arrow is a thing, i remember reading about them somewhere...they have heavier ends don't go as far but when they hit they can break bones or damage armor. These would work well against skeletons.

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Except that if you're doing the full 10-second charge, you'll only need 1 arrow unless you've got a hoard of 16 mobs you need to kill.

 

Also, technically speaking your suggestion of halving the draw time and the damage is already implemented. If you only draw the bow for 5 seconds, you can release it and it will do half the damage. Nobody is stopping you from not doing the full draw.

Except if you draw for slightly less than that, the bow doesn't fire at all, and there's no visual indicator for where that point is.  The damage also doesn't scale linearly; a 5 second charge fires a limp arrow that travels even less than a javelin and does barely any damage.

 

Edit: The bow's damage scales linearly after the point where you can fire, so it looks something like

Seconds   0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10Damage    0%  ---------   0%  10%      50%       100%

If I wanted to do a "half charge", I would have to draw for 7-8 seconds, and at that point I may as well go the full 10 seconds.

Edited by teiwaz
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Except if you draw for slightly less than that, the bow doesn't fire at all, and there's no visual indicator for where that point is.  The damage also doesn't scale linearly; a 5 second charge fires a limp arrow that travels even less than a javelin and does barely any damage.

 

Because you're being so adamant on this, I've just run multiple tests as well as referenced the code for drawing the bow. Please note that all of these calculations are based on any armor the player may be wearing, and do take longer depending on how many pieces of armor the player is wearing, and if the armor is leather or metal. For a player in full metal armor, all times are a little over twice as long as a player wearing no armor.

 

These calculations are also assuming running at the standard 20 ticks per second. I have also done a few runs with a stopwatch to time and confirm the values.

 

First and foremost, the minimum amount of time that you have to draw the bow for it to fire is 16 ticks (0.8 seconds) or 36 ticks (1.8 seconds) if in full metal armor, which was intentionally added as a way to stop players from doing the rapid-fire that is so annoying when used against you in vanilla combat.

 

Secondly, there are visual indicators for where each point is. The bow will do the first pullback animation, which you can start firing less than halfway through. The animation ends with this texture and pauses on it:

 

Posted Image

 

The next step up for drawing appears at 38 ticks (1.9 seconds) or 88 ticks (4.4 seconds) in full metal armor, and the bow will almost "jerk" and switch to this texture:

 

Posted Image

 

Finally, the bow is fully drawn when the it "jerks" again at 75 ticks (3.75 seconds), or 175 ticks (8.75 seconds) in full metal armor and this texture is shown:

 

Posted Image

 

Also, for everything other than a fully drawn bow, the damage does scale linearly. The only difference is that a fully drawn bow also does a critical hit.

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Because you're being so adamant on this, I've just run multiple tests as well as referenced the code for drawing the bow. Please note that all of these calculations are based on any armor the player may be wearing, and do take longer depending on how many pieces of armor the player is wearing, and if the armor is leather or metal. For a player in full metal armor, all times are a little over twice as long as a player wearing no armor. These calculations are also assuming running at the standard 20 ticks per second. I have also done a few runs with a stopwatch to time and confirm the values. First and foremost, the minimum amount of time that you have to draw the bow for it to fire is 16 ticks (0.8 seconds) or 36 ticks (1.8 seconds) if in full metal armor, which was intentionally added as a way to stop players from doing the rapid-fire that is so annoying when used against you in vanilla combat. Secondly, there are visual indicators for where each point is. The bow will do the first pullback animation, which you can start firing less than halfway through. The animation ends with this texture and pauses on it: Also, for everything other than a fully drawn bow, the damage does scale linearly. The only difference is that a fully drawn bow also does a critical hit.

I didn't realize that armor affected draw time. However, I don't think "the bow will do the first pullback animation, which you can start firing less than halfway through" is right.  At least in metal armor, you can only start firing a dozen ticks after the first animation ends (from personal tests). It looks like my times are slightly off since I used a clock for timing.  Roughly 9 seconds for a full draw in metal armor, not 10.

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The timer that determines when you can fire is the exact same timer that decides which texture is being used and what point in the animation it currently is.

 

Edit: It appears that the "animation" part is the same speed regardless of your armor. However, the switching of the textures is still completely accurate and based on the same timer as allowing the arrow to fire or not. I'll look into fixing that for 79.19 so the animation is slower when wearing armor.

Edited by Kittychanley
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The timer that determines when you can fire is the exact same timer that decides which texture is being used and what point in the animation it currently is.

 

Edit: It appears that the "animation" part is the same speed regardless of your armor. However, the switching of the textures is still completely accurate and based on the same timer as allowing the arrow to fire or not. I'll look into fixing that for 79.19 so the animation is slower when wearing armor.

Thanks for the clarification.  I thought the current system was unacceptable because I assumed 9 second draw time across the board.  Now that I know armor affects it, I can see that the current system is "acceptable" (I think we all know archery in TFC needs some kind of improvement, but how exactly to improve it...).

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It turns out that the speed of the pullback animation is hardcoded in vanilla. However, I switched the bow drawing to use 4 textures instead of the vanilla 3. So when you first start "pulling" it will just show the arrow resting on a completely loose bow. As soon as the force is high enough that it will let you fire an arrow, the texture switches to the bow actually looking like it's starting to be drawn, so players can use that as the reference point of when they can start firing, instead of the pullback of the entire item as a whole. After that there's a "middle" texture to break up the huge gap of nothing happening when you're wearing armor and the timer is super slow, and finally the final texture for being fully drawn.

 

Edit: When you aren't wearing armor the animation is smooth enough it's a bit hard to see the first transition, so just watch for the arrow jerking back while you are pulling.

Edited by Kittychanley
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