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    • Crysyn

      Only help if you can be helpful

      Hey All, A topic has come up of late in the IRC channel in regards to the general feel of the forums and the community that supports them. Things have progressed further than I would have liked with out this being addressed more publicly because I would much rather have snubbed this out sooner rather than later.. but I have been busy. Here is the general rule I would like people to follow: Wheaton's Law "Don't be a dick." Those of you from the IRC channel know that this is the only rule I ask people in there to follow and we generally have a good and lively time chatting about all manner of things. This is basic rule that just about everyone understands and I am going to expand it to the forums from here moving forward. If you can not help people in a helpful and polite manner then I simply ask you to stop. Now I generally take a back seat to moderating the forums as I like to participate in the suggestions forum fairly heavily at times and would rather do so as a forums user than a moderator. But I am also fairly well known for being the person who constantly puts their foot down and so I am stepping up and doing so on here. If you find yourself unable to respond to a message politely then I ask that you do not respond. This mostly focuses on the increasing level of hostility found within the Suggestion forum as well as the Server forum. I do not care if this is the 30th some odd time you have seen someone make the same suggestion. Or even if the new post on an older topic is one entry above the old one. I expect the members of this forum to respond politely to the user, new or old, and point to the older topic if it applies and even go the extra step to suggest they either add in new information or to summarize the outcome of the previous discussion based upon the new post's entry into it. That is what we are here for, that is why I close most topics instead of deleting them, so that they can be found and referenced down the road. The next topic is the slew of derailment attempts I have seen as of late. If you want to have fun and joke around that is what the off topic forum is for and pretty much anything goes there. I do not expect to read a suggestion thread and have to go through 3 pages of image memes people have shot back and forth. Quite simply this is a waste of my time to read and then have to clean up. Now for the summary. I am going to start taking a more active role, especially in policing the suggestion forum, and handing out warn levels to people whom I see doing this. These will be indiscriminate and applied not to just the first person who derails or is impolite on a topic or response, but to everyone whom follows the lead of that person. As I do not like doing things with out giving you all warning this post shall serve as that warning. If you have a desire to bring this topic up with me then I invite you to do so on the IRC channel. Lets raise the level of quality and grow the community. Let us not descend into the quality often found on the minecraft or league of legend forums. There is simply no need for that here. Be passionate about things, just do not be abusive.
    • Kittychanley

      Offline Servers

      Recently I've seen a few server listings showing up on the first page of the Servers forum that have been closed for an extended period of time, but have recently gotten a reply from a new member who didn't realize the server is offline. To help prevent this from happening in the future, it would be greatly appreciated if you could use the report function on the original post of any servers that have been confirmed as offline, so that the topic may be locked. If you are the admin of a server and plan on taking the server offline, please use the report function on the original post of your topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be locked. If you are the admin of a server that has a locked topic, and would wish to bring the server back online, please use the report function on the original post of the topic to let the TFC Staff know that the topic should be unlocked. As always, please remember to follow rule #3 of the servers forum and update your topic title to contain the version of TFC that the server is currently running. You can do so by editing the OP, and then clicking on "Use Full Editor."
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Bioxx

Encumberance Inventory system

144 posts in this topic

Personally I love this idea . This would add so much to later game a reason to have mules a reason to have minecarts . My only fear is for early game because the inventory is already hard enough to control as it is . Therefore I think all items should maybe be placeable and you can make baskets/containers much easier . Baskets could be made from bull rushes or something so there is another ealy game storage . This I think would balance it out for me

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Just to restate Bioxx and remind myself, the standard weight would be 1 ordinary stone block: 1s and players would have max capacity of 256s. Done.

 

Now, as I'm really keen on having size as another measurement/limit/whatever, let's say the standard would be a block: 1 block, and the max capacity(without any container equipment) is 512b. As wood would be something like 0.1s per log(my countings), then the player would not be able to carry 40 stacks of log, but only 8 stacks.

 

Would that be better?

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It has sort of been mentioned before in this thread, but I would love to see this system tied to the max health level if that's going to be kept somewhat similar to TFC1. I like the believability of it: as a person gets more experience, they can carry more weight (when I first started a job staffing a back-woods cabin, I could only carry about 55 pounds up a trail without collapsing in a heap, but after a few months I could trudge along for miles with 130 pounds). It also would give more incentive to leveling up, which I think could use a little more benefit than just HPs. And of course, if you're malnourished, you should have trouble carrying weight too.

 

I'm not sure if it's the way to go, but from an immersion standpoint, I'd love to see it tried.

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I would prefer a system that try to stay away from decimals, so if we have items that weight as much as 1 tenth of a stone we should use that as the unit. I think it would go easy on the players.

The fact that we can carry 100 units or 1000 units of something else should not matter. I might be convinced otherwise depending on the arguments.

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@Miner239

 

To be honest I would prefer a harsher initial carrying limit with a sharper curve to the late game. However in principle I agree, that sounds grand.

 

@Tony

Yup agreed I'd rather not either, but I don't think that @239 was saying it had to be displayed like that. I think how we determine our weight is an interface problem. We might need a thread on interfaces at some point.

 

@micmastadon

Having subjective encumbrance that you can improve with both tools and objects, as well as the attributes system sounds good. I think the interesting part is the tools and features that increase capacity, as that's the part where we can use our ingenuity. I'd say that ingenuity is more immersive than anything else as it's a manifestation of your interaction with the world.

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I find so unbelievable games where you start with a 100 pounds capacity and by late game you can lift 2 tons. I was hopping we would not go in that direction.

Instead the player caring capacity could be increase by natural ways, like a hand cart and latter an animal pulled wagon finishing with the minecart and tracks.

This would feel natural, a tiny increase in capacity with xp would be OK, but no more than 20% of the original. It could be translated as Steve getting stronger by exercising more. 

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It won't be 2 tons, just... 300 pounds, maybe. Of course, we can set the progression so that it won't that overpowered.

 

How about a HUD redesign?

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Oh yeah I was definitely thinking about a minor increase in strength, and our primary improvements being ingenuity based. Such as carts and such.

 

As far as a HUD redesign. That sounds like a lot of work if it was from the ground up. However vanilla Minecraft certainly wasn't designed for TFC's system. Perhaps some modifications to facilitate the extra information TFC requires you to know. It would be nice to get away from all the raw numbers we might end up with.

I'll start a new thread though so that we don't diverge too much.

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I find so unbelievable games where you start with a 100 pounds capacity and by late game you can lift 2 tons. I was hopping we would not go in that direction.

Instead the player caring capacity could be increase by natural ways, like a hand cart and latter an animal pulled wagon finishing with the minecart and tracks.

This would feel natural, a tiny increase in capacity with xp would be OK, but no more than 20% of the original. It could be translated as Steve getting stronger by exercising more. 

 

Yes, a 4000% increase in carrying capacity isn't believable, but I think 20% is too low. That's why I suggested that it be directly tied to max health so that XP and nutrition would come into play. That kind of increase isn't at all unbelievable. As I said before, I gained a 130% carrying capacity increase from XP ... IRL.

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Agree 20% is kind of low. But we need to have a balance. 

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I really enjoy exploring abandoned mineshafts in vanilla MC; it would be great fun to actually _build_ them in TFC. I am hoping that somehow, in some believable and intuitive way, mining at some stage requires the use of minecarts.

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I'm just going to deposit this idea here because it really seems to have to do with inventory: could tool belts be added? Something like purpose made belts for different things (I.E. smithing belt with hammer, pouch of flux, drift (The thing for making holes in tool heads for heading them) chisel (For cut-offs) and tongs, which will let you have everything stored ahead of time and help with the somewhat cluttered anvil interface) or maybe a building tool belt (Chisel, hammer, and a pouch for your primary building block, saw, pick [or maybe some alternate tool designed for re-grabbing stone like a pry bar? could make building more convenient to make up for encumberment...]) prospecting belt (Pick, propick, support beams, torches/lanterns) and lastly, the battle belt (Quiver of arrows/bolts/quarrels, bow/crossbow/longbow, sword, mace, javelin(s?) and knife (For butchering))

 

These belts would not add to your weight totals and I feel like they could really make the game more fun and easier on newcomers if the encumberment is added. There would be a spot like the barrel one, and the belts would be made out of leather and maybe a specific item appropriate for each type of work (I.E. flux for the smithing belt, lumber for the building belt, torch for prospecting, knife (Stone) for the battle belt, and if you had a lumberjacking belt (If, say, more in depth felling were added) a stick?) 

 

Belts could be placed on the ground like a vessel and would be easy to put on and take off by shift-right-clicking the belt on the ground. There would need to be another hotbar where you can access all the items from the belts if they were added, and it'd need another key bind, but I feel like one key for that much convienience (Without losing balance or challenge) would be a good trade.

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I like the tool belt idea. It seems very cool. I don't know how far along in the game you'd need to be but being able to pick up and drop what amounts to a hot bar sounds cool. I was thinking about doing something like that myself with pockets but this seems much more refined.

 

As regards the discussion a moment ago about what the increase should be. I don't think we can really determine it at the moment. Once the other mechanics are solidified we'll know what would be reasonable to be portable, and what would be a reasonable increase. How much is reasonable to carry will surely be determined by what you can do with what you're carrying. Everyone with me :P

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IMO limiting inventory space in games gets in the way of fun way too much. Inventory management, while "realistic" is NOT fun in a building game.

 

But is TFC primarily a building game?

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I really enjoyed the encumberance system in the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. games. It represented limits on bulk and weight via grid space and stack size. Large items take more space in inventory, heavy or not. Small items only take a small space. Heavy items don't stack, very light items will.

 

So you could have:

 

  • one grid space for a stack of 20 bandaids
  • 2 grids spaces for a stack of 3 bottles
  • a single weapon or piece of armor that takes up several grid spaces

 

Bs5XXg6.jpg

 

It would obviously require a re-write of the inventory gui. But it makes the bulk and weight mechanics visual and immediately intuitive. An intuitive interface is game gold.

Edited by subarctic_guy
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But is TFC primarily a building game?

Or more to the point, will TFC2 be?  I think the general nature of minecraft predisposes it to be primarily a building game.  Because it's the thing it does well - huge open procedural worlds with the player building whatever they like.  Games like Ark and Fallout4 are trying to reach out from their FPS base, and add some building.  But it's not on the level of minecraft, and the worlds are fixed.  Building is minecraft's strong suit, I would argue.

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But is TFC primarily a building game?

 

TFC2 is a mod for Minecraft, and Minecraft is primarily a building game, so yes.

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Fair enough. Though extensive modification can change the nature/goal of a game. It can turn the original games main mechanic into just one of many cogs in a very different machine.

 

Like the way that Yahtzee is essentially a dice-rolling game, but D&D is a tabletop role-playing game that includes dice-rolling as one of many tools to serve the main goal: story telling.

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I think if Kitty said it's a building game, it's a building game ...

 

 

I really enjoyed the encumberance system in the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. games. It represented limits on bulk and weight via grid space and stack size. Large items take more space in inventory, heavy or not. Small items only take a small space. Heavy items don't stack, very light items will.

 

If i well understood before your post, if you restrict stack/number of slot inventory, minecraft cannot make the difference between inventory and storage. So you must have 1000 slot to stock 1000 stone if 1 stone take 1 slot in your inventory. I think it could be work if you stack stone in a pile, like log or clay mold etc, but not in an classic storage device.

Edited by n3urotoxik
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I love the idea of limited storage, and I would love to see those mammoths pushings the carts which the stones for my new castle  :rolleyes:. This will also push the creation of minecarts for mines as getting lower and lower in the terrain would mean having to make more travels to the surface to leave the minerals, thus making it impractical.

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Has anyone here played Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead?

That game has, in my opinion, among the best inventory systems of any game, and I think it could very well possibly work for TFC.

How CDDA's inventory system works is similar to some of what I have read in this thread.  There are five main parameters to worry about:

Item Volume -> Applies to all items, and is in arbitrary units, except with regard to liquids... which have to be in containers to be in your inventory anyway

Item Weight -> Applies to all items and is measured in real-life units, and affects movement as it approaches or exceeds the character's weight capacity

Encumbrance -> Only matters for items that are worn, including containers like backpacks, pouches, and similar.  This affects movement speed, attack rolls, and the like

Storage -> Only matters for items that are containers, and is the volume an that item, when equipped, allows you to carry, and/or when placed somewhere can store

Weight capacity -> the max weight you can carry without suffering penalties.  This is determined by the player's strength attribute.

So, if you are a naked character, you can only carry what is in your hands, which can be any volume.  As you put on equipment with storage, you can carry a certain volume.  As you equip more and more equipment with storage you will be able to carry more and more volume, BUT you will also become more encumbered, which means you start to get penalties.  Also, there is a hard limit on how many pieces of equipment (clothing or armour or whatever) of a certain type you can equip on a given body part, and encumbrance only applies to the body part it is equipped on.   

For example, if you wear just one backpack which goes on the torso, it will hardly encumber you and therefore has an modest effect on things like attack and movement, if at all.  But if you decide to wear two backpacks, you will be able to carry much more, but your torso becomes much more encumbered which gives you penalties to actions involving the torso.  And if you try to wear three or four backpacks (I think), the game won't let you.  However, if you, instead of two backpacks, equip a backpack on your torso, and pouches on your thighs which combined have the same carrying carrying capacity as two backpacks, you will not be as encumbered since you spread out the encumbrance.  And in all cases, the more mass you carry, the more it can affect movement speed and attack rolls and stuff.

I hope this makes sense.  If it doesn't check it out for yourself.  It really is quite simple and intuitive though getting used to CDDA's interface and other aspects of gameplay is very difficult.  Some other cool things that this system helps with is balancing armour and other wearable items.  For example, some armours may protect more, but have more encumbrance if poorly made.

Anyway, I think if this were implemented in TFC, it could even be simplified a bit.  Perhaps the encumbrance feature could just be applied to the whole body and not be body-part specific.  And perhaps when the player has no containers equipped, the player can carry only a hot-bar's worth of items.  I think it is an elegant solution that many more games ought to implement.

Edited by Andeerz
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Andeerz, you hit the spot! CataDDA's inventory system was really great. Equipping storage items like barrels or vessels on your back should give you more space at the expense of less weight capacity (because the barrel itself is heavy), so you could choose between a backpack or a barrel. 

 

You could theoretically wear up to 10 piece per body part in CataDDA. Not exactly a hard limit, but you can't wear anything if it raises your encumbrance more than 6, and wearing two piece of clothing of the same layer will increase encumbrance.

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I was not into the idea of clothing adding inventory space, but then I watched a youtube of some guys using...I think it was Flan's mod.  You had your inventory, but most of it was blocked off.  And as you put on clothing with varying inventory space associated with it, some of the spots were unblocked.  I thought that was an interesting way to bring variable inventory, and it appeared to work pretty ok.  In that context I think having to choose between inventory extending clothing, or armor, could work possibly.  But I don't think having multiple layers per part is necessary.  I'd much rather have special wear spots for magic items - rings, amulets, gauntlets, that sort of thing.  And a cloak slot, for magic or warmth giving cloaks.  Ioun stones, for the D&D savy out there. 

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Darmo, I think that kind of "special wear spots" idea might be good, and could take the place of the encumbrance feature of CDDA.  And I think it is easier to see being done as it is essentially an expansion upon the current way Minecraft handles equipping items.

However, I think layers make sense for clothing and ESPECIALLY armour.  And this could still be done, I think, nicely with what you suggest.  For an example of what I mean, check this post out.  And I still think encumbrance as CDDA handles it could introduce a way of differentiating fitted/well-made vs. non-fitted/poorly made items and stuff like that could be another useful and believable way of balancing things in the game.

Thinking on it some more, I would be for a combination of both what you suggest and what CDDA does.  But, CDDA does have some elements of the system you suggest, Darmo, since there are some things that have hard limits that behave like having a fixed number of slots.  For example, you can't have more than one or two rigid helmets on your head at the same time, depending on their size. 

Edited by Andeerz
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It'd be neat to have, certainly.  But there's only so much hud space.  And there is some value in keeping things simpler.  Two layers is probably manageable, I would say anything beyond two layers is too much.   Mainly I'm saying I'd rather have spots for those other things, before layers, if it's a choice.

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