Encouraging specialization

[weylin 36]

I'm part of a town which has broken up tasks between several different players, but the only one that really requires and degree of skill is the prospecting and smithing.

Everything else just seems to be no-skill labor. Farms, Animal breeding, sheep shearing, meal making.

Most all of these things are simple enough that players can be lone wolves, not really providing much incentive to be part of a town and focusing on being an expert at a particular task.

Basically, players can be a master of all things, because there's really not much to master... smithing and prospecting are pretty much it, and even those are easily learned (I figured it out in about 2 hours of offline practice in creative mode)

I don't know if this should go under suggestions or discussion, because I'm not so much suggesting ways to solve this, as bringing attention to the fact.

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

Let me bring to your own attention the fact that the game is in beta. A lot of stuff is halfway done, or not even started. This kind of thing makes sense to bring up when the game is out of beta already. Just give 'em some time, Dunk and Bioxx will make the game much better than it is already

[achartran 465]

This is something that is, in fact, a subject we have discussed before. It would be nice, but consider how one would actually go about doing this... yeah, just think about it for a while.

Now, once you've given it a good mulling over, finish reading this

Hard, isn't it? Well that's the issue, so while it is definitely something that would be nice, it takes a lot of work to just figure out, let alone implement. So yeah, it may be a while, if ever. (I really hope it happens eventually though. )

[bubba_h0tep 10]

What about a perk/flaw system. If they do something with XP, skills for example. You would be able to choose a perk:mining speed increase, and a flaw:decrease woodcutting speed. <-just an example, i know it doesn't make sense.

Not really trying to suggest that, but it's a way specialization could be done. Another way, with some sort of skills system, could be skill degradation. When you mine, your mining goes up, but something else goes down.

That way there is some sort of balance. Also with this mechanic you would be able to change your mind and go a different way naturally. Maybe the lower the skill the faster it increases.

[warfighter67 124]

What about a perk/flaw system. If they do something with XP, skills for example. You would be able to choose a perk:mining speed increase, and a flaw:decrease woodcutting speed. <-just an example, i know it doesn't make sense.

No RPG skills. At all. Cited from Dunk himself. He'll show up soon enough to, er, 'let you know' hehe.

[ruhl4 24]

Adding some 'minigame' (similar to the smithing gui) to lots of tasks would make it harder to do them well.

[weylin 36]

Well, one game which was based entirely on skill was Puzzle Pirates.

Not exactly the best example, but that game managed to have it where very very few could master everything, hell, most had to work pretty damn hard to learn how to do well at one thing.

I understand that this is beta, and that it's hard work modding, and that this stuff is a bit hard to think of solutions for, so I thought it would be worth discussing, even if it has been brought up before, I don't want to necropost.

[transcengopher 349]

What is this, modded Minecraft or Puzzle Pirates?

What minigame you suggest for tilling soil? Harvesting plans? Maybe minigame for animal breeding where you, khm, help male one to get it right?

And I can assure you, however hard you will make labors, I still will be able to be jack of all trades. Because I am from settlement where all of us are at least equally good miners and smiths, while we aren't giving up other tasks because of how "hard" it is.

[killster550 401]

he tried to show an example of a purely skill based game, which in fact is spot on, PP IS skill and minigame based, but its concept does not fit MC in the least, minigaming and GUI'ing everything gets you killed by ninja mobs

[weylin 36]

True enough, having too many GUIs would be irritating

But surely there must be a way to allow direct interaction without needing a GUI?

What I mean is, for example, there was this starship game where you could push the buttons on a control console without needing to open it, you could walk right up and click buttons, or sit down if you wanted to have a better view of it.

So basically, puzzle type things were done seamlessly. There was no 'welding minigame' you would interact directly with the area.

Doing this makes things feel sooo much more real and immersive. GUIs really swat you out of your trance XD

[killster550 401]

yea, guess what, you hold an axe and swing it at a tree with a click, kind of describes what you meant

[weylin 36]

You look at block of wood and hold down the mouse button... you can do it with your eyes closed.

But what if you had to do some sort of thing to make it chop faster or something?

A lot of tasks could keep the easy way, but provide some sort of hard to master bonus game that would allow players to do much better at a task.

[killster550 401]

hmm, a subtle change to the system to make you actually aim where you click (like if you aim at top, and then down, it goes faster than just dead center) (and trees would have more effect on the middle part of the log), sounds tough for such a minor feature

but seriously, its a co-op game, not competitive (although people play enough PvP)

[Mephistos_chan 26]

Perhaps the answer would be research, as in Thaumcraft and for every player to have to find out how to do something. If you've bother to research the whole farming tech tree you will be an epic farmer, but not so hot as a metalworker. There could be some cross over between a blacksmith and an armourer, or a farmer and a woodsman. There could even be a stone mason where you have to research each mode of the chisel, with upside down stairs being amongst the last.

I don't know if this has been raised before, apologies if it has.

[Ditto8353 202]

I like the idea of having tech trees, but I don't know if Bioxx does. I know they didn't want to have a skill system (last I heard), but I do not know if that would also apply to a tech tree. If there was a tech tree in place though, it would need an interface similar to the achievement interface. Without a visual display of your progress, tech trees are too difficult to manage.

[VegasGoat 51]

I think we really need to look at how people play minecraft and TFC right now, because I don't think aiming for each player to specialize in only one thing is really going to work.

One type of town I've seen (and been part of), is where you just get a group of like 4-5 people together and share everything. This town inevitably falls apart when players get tired of not being able to use the fruits of their labor. In my town I always found myself making charcoal because it would always get used up. Then when it was ready I didn't really have time left to do any metal work, and when I came back the next day the charcoal was used up again. This is like living in a house with people that keep eating the food you bought for yourself. So you try labeling your stuff but it still gets eaten. Eventually you just leave.

The other type of town is the OP's town, where each person has a specific task. The problem with that is that it's BORING to just do the same task over and over, and has the same issue of not getting to enjoy the fruits of your labor. So people eventually stop doing their task or go off on their own again.

I think the best type of town one can hope for, is just a collection of people living in close proximity, doing everything themselves and trading for the supplies they need or don't feel like collecting. Getting help when needed. Admiring other players' creations. Unfortunately this won't happen until there's some kind of reliable protection for your stuff. Most solo players hide or go far away for fear of griefers and theives, or simply play SSP.

I'm not really sure what I'm getting at here. I guess encouraging trade and living closer to other players would work better than trying to encourage a player to specialize and do only one thing. Otherwise it's too much like having a job instead of playing a game.

Maybe this mod isn't really right for me, or I should just stick to single player or private whitelist servers.

[renadi 258]

Eh, I think the idea of players specializing is one of Bioxx's goals, so communities each give players a place, if not you may as well play alone with a chat box on another screen.

Making it impossible(or nearly so) would be my preferred method, but barring that we can at least make the time required to do everything enough of a reason to focus on one thing.

I think the smithing system is the exact kind of thing that needs to be expanded, other systems need to have a similar investment, which right now none do.

Though I don't think one specialization is needed, we at least shouldn't be able to do all things every day with no worries.

[transcengopher 349]

Perhaps the answer would be research, as in Thaumcraft and for every player to have to find out how to do something. If you've bother to research the whole farming tech tree you will be an epic farmer, but not so hot as a metalworker. There could be some cross over between a blacksmith and an armourer, or a farmer and a woodsman. There could even be a stone mason where you have to research each mode of the chisel, with upside down stairs being amongst the last.

I don't know if this has been raised before, apologies if it has.

Dude. It's a freaking plant. You take its seeds, you dig a hole, throw seeds in a hole, put some soil on top - boom - there grows the plant.

AND. It's a freaking tree. You chop one - you know how to chop another, it's NOT a matter of research, it's a matter of common sense. People used to have this thing, it helps to transfer knowledge and apply skills transferred by drawn analogies.

Though I don't think one specialization is needed, we at least shouldn't be able to do all things every day with no worries.

There's explicit limitation - that being finite time of day.

What you people all seems to be asking for some sort of RPG elements and forgetting that TFC hopes to move away from that. Now I don't exactly have time to play SMP, but I used to be farmer, you know, grow cereals'n'stuff. Does this mean I can't mine? No. Does it mean I can't be local smith if I want to? Hell no, I'm very good at smithing. Why am I a farmer then? Because I feel like it. See? Or not?

Why you're so obsessed with forcing me to play the way you want me to and I don't want necessarily?

[renadi 258]

I'm not saying that in any day you're only allowed to do one thing, I'm saying you can't do all things within one day, there's not enough time. One man should take longer to get a farm established, mine ores, smith items than 5.

this allows specialization naturally instead of programming it in.

Nothing forces you to play in any way, you can choose to do anything you want, but any specific action takes a commitment on your part.

[transcengopher 349]

And as I said, there is already quite thick line of what you're able to do during one day. On my solo maps, for example, I did live for about an in-game year once, caught up in the farming, and not had time to do sluicing to get my pick and propick done, but I had established food supply with cows that were bred at specific time of year so I alone had functionally infinite supply of meat if I kept slaughtering them in right order, and nice sized crop fields. Or I had dug up iron and hunted for nickel, while feasting on scrambled eggs and still waiting my first patch of cereals to grow.

Group of people could've been hunting for nickel for half a year already, while still having the same established food supply. I had one session when we smelted two double chests worth of nickel and made ingots from all of it working as a group on five anvils simultaneously, and that was awesome, I say. After that one of us proceeded to fill humongous charcoal pit, some people returned to build their castle, some went mining and I went to see how my orchid doing.

Well, what am I trying to tell is that I don't see the need to force specialization. You can add complexity to jobs, but not because it will "specialize" someone, but because it will be cool to have "this" particular mechanic.

[VegasGoat 51]

Edit: This was regarding renadi, transcengopher and my posts.

Sounds like agreement to me. Make tasks complex and time consuming in a believable manner, and the specialization will sort itself out.

I think it's fine that "there's only so much time in a day" in which you can't accomplish a whole lot by yourself. Things should definitely be more productive with a team. I suppose the complexity itself would encourage teaming up.

[weylin 36]

I'm not asking for RPG mechanics.

I'm asking for the different skills to be a bit more involved. Time of day is irrelevant because we all carry our beds around or log out when night comes.

You could harvest trees the normal point and click way, or learn the minigame to speed up the process.

With farming you could have a nutrient minigame that speeds up the process if you do it correctly.

With mining, you could have a thing for that, maybe it improves ore yield or drop rate of gemstones.

When I say minigame, I don't exactly mean you're playing tetris or pong, what I mean is that there are more variables to consider, it's not just a brain-dead point and click task.

[renadi 258]

I think making the working of any item should be simulated as the metallurgy system is, that is literally the only part of the game currently that promotes natural specialization.

[transcengopher 349]

There's not that many ways IRL to speed up the logging process.

Same applies to crop growing. Mining itself is a minigame, i'd said.

[renadi 258]

I'm OK with it being pretty simple to find and gather materials, but it not be so easy to work and refine them.

Getting rid of the crafting grid completely would make me happy.