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      Offline Servers

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TonyLiberatto

Flowers to mark the location of ores.

27 posts in this topic

I really dislike the system of picking up ore nuggets for your first tool.

It is believable and probably how it first happened. 

My beef with it is in a server environment.

So one player goes around picking up everything he sees. He may or may not create a way point in his Minimap, but this is not visible for other players. Now the next player to come has no idea that a huge vein is just 30 blocks under that spot since there are no nuggets on the surface.

Now the first player left the server and that vein may be forever lost.

At first I though about just regenerating nuggets after a while, but that would just make some player go even more insane about picking then.

Another idea was to make the nuggets unbreakable, but that would not be very believable.

Then I remember this post: http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/8830-pandanus-candelabrum-a-plant-that-shows-you-where-diamonds-are-buried/?hl=kimberlite#entry114499

Where they talk about a plant that can help find Diamonds. That got me thinking that we could have some flowers spawning on the surface using the same parameters as the nuggets, but they would respawn every year, this way if player A picks all the nuggets player B will at least know where to dig for the ore vein.

As far as I know it is realistic as some plants have developed to use the minerals in the soil.

 

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I think it will be more interesting to make easier more appealing the deep underground mining process, without ore nuggets on the surface, but it seems difficult in TFC1 (rethink caves system and underground exploration, interesting mining efficiency in deeps...). With theses flowers, mining can become mainly a botanist work ! In this case, I would prefer to spawn some "impure *metal* nuggets" or something like that without metal quantity, instead of flowers, at the location of initial nuggets which have been picked.

 

But technically, it will be a timing checking mechanic (maybe once you reload a chunk after a while) and you need memorize all nuggets locations and relaunch a ground checking mechanic... I don't know more but just to say that seems heavy just for a information issue, maybe i'm wrong.

 

Still, it's a good idea for multiplayer, but i also think in TFC you need to avoid trying to collect everything : there are also plenty of other minerals without visible nuggets on the surface, copper has that and it's pretty common, [EDIT] plus propick is a good tool.

You lost the location, ok, just try to scout another batch of land [EDIT], or try obviously to relocate yourself veins with the propick, or try new vertical shafts for deep exploration in 2-3 layers anywhere after a while.

 

But if players don't mind at all about memorize and share locations, it's also true than the server map can expand like crazy, but some management is a bit of requirement in TFC.

In this case, if players really don't like the propick way, maybe you can :

- use a real ingame mining locations management, it could be to use signs, and if necessary, maybe tweak the crafting recipes to make more,

- or place any unnatural and visible block (torch, cobble, thatch...) at least,
- make a web deposit for waypoints files if players don't mind (secret locations ?), maybe directly save and find in the server files,

- ultimately reload more or less "unused" or spawn chunks (don't know if it's possible in TFC.

 

It seems more about multiplayer information management than an actual gameplay issue : there are tools, balanced, but players need to not be lazy also (share waypoints files and/or at least put a "tag" block/sign)

Edited by lucan6029
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If ground spawns only spawn for "surface" seams, how would someone find an ore seam in the secondary or tertiary layers of rock, unless they go exploring? What do you think the Pro Pick is for? In the real world people send down vertical exploration boreholes and see what's down there. This is how you'd do it in TFC as well, dig straight down with ladders, testing every now any then with a pro pick to see if there's anything nearby.

 

Ground spawns are an early game mechanic to get you off the ground. There are other mechanics to get you the first tools worth of ore too, panning, sluicing.... This is what people should be doing at the start. Unless you have a "village" to join, in which case mines will be already be known, claimed and shared? There would probably even be a set of tools waiting for them?

 

If we head down the route of marking ore deposits in some way, where will it stop? Yellow flowers means is a shallow deposit? Red flowers means it's a really deep deposit?

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This suggestion is based on multiplayer servers. The main point is about players in a new map looking for a place to make their base. So they just go about removing all the nuggets and many times not even marking the location for themselves as they plan on going far away.

The problem is that 2 weeks latter when another player is looking for ores he has no idea that there is a vein underground as there are no marking on the surface and that first player actually left the server never to be seeing again.

The flowers seemed like a believable and naturally respawning, The surface nuggets are a good solution, but only for single player.

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The problem is that 2 weeks latter when another player is looking for ores he has no idea that there is a vein underground as there are no marking on the surface and that first player actually left the server never to be seeing again.

 

I think the point the other person trying to make is that this exact problem already exists with ore veins that aren't in the surface layer of stone. Players are already expected to go in blind to search the middle and bottom layer with no indicators, so why is it so bad if they are expected to do it on the top layer too?

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Well I understand that people that do not play in public servers have a hard time understanding the issue. The truth is that no one digs down to look for copper in the bottom layer. People only do it when looking for a specific rare ore like for example garnierite or the middle layer for graphite. aside for that no one is cares what is in the middle or bottom layer. Exceptions when looking for a specific stone type for construction or the accidental discovery. Aside for that players that are starting in a server and had to gold pan for their first copper pick and prospect pick cannot waste the pick tunneling underground looking for the first copper vein. they already have a hard time finding ore that is only 30 blocks down. 

I hear everywhere that the intention is for the player to make his first tools with nuggets grabbed on the surface, and this may be in single player. But in any 3 weeks old server there are no nuggets for at least 5000 blocks around the spawn area.

My idea was that at least in the absence of the nuggets at least the player would know where to look for their first vein.

I am not advocating for flowers to mark the location of ore in the middle or bottom layer, only to spawn together with the nuggets and re spawn after a while, so even if pick up after sometime people would know that there is ore close to the surface, the same feature that the nugget already does. It would not change the game mechanic, it does not make the mod easier or harder, but for multiplayer public servers.

I ask only if people are not used to play on public servers and have no idea what the issue is to avoid minimizing it. 

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I just wish there was some long-range mechanic for ACTUAL prospecting, not this weird precision-xray-spectroscope-pick we have now.

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Recently i begin in a new server, no nuggets but i run to a quartzite area with a gold pan ive get 100 units for copper, after ive created a saw a house and sluices, with sluices harvest i made a propick, all this begin made me triangulate the vein location. With the triangulated location ive re-triangulated with propick, easly i found 2 copper veins.
So its easy, terrafirmacraft isn't for be played fast like vanilla, newbies need to learn in wiki and in mp is more easy, because they learn with players.

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Recently i begin in a new server, no nuggets but i run to a quartzite area with a gold pan ive get 100 units for copper, after ive created a saw a house and sluices, with sluices harvest i made a propick, all this begin made me triangulate the vein location. With the triangulated location ive re-triangulated with propick, easly i found 2 copper veins.

So its easy, terrafirmacraft isn't for be played fast like vanilla, newbies need to learn in wiki and in mp is more easy, because they learn with players.

Completely agree. It still feels like I am unable to convey my idea properly. I am not trying to make the mod easier or the act of finding ores easy. Is just a sense of fairness and I really hate to waste.

All I know is that a copper vein less than 500 blocks from spawn may never get dug, because players will not use sluices to triangulate it.

I honestly did not imagine that anyone would be against this idea. It just makes a little better for the people that join a server after the first week. Even though pay attention to the fact that I am not proposing to have nuggets re spawn, just to have the same kind of indication that the nugget gave that a ore was not so deep in that location. I can't imagine that this would ruin the game for anyone!!!

I would also not be opposed to have micro nuggets respawn they would yeld only 1 unit. So the second player to get to the area would only find these micro nuggets, they would help locate the vein but would not help much more than that. 

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The issue is MC, and so TFC, seems way more design for playgroup/private multiplayer, not public multiplayer with a continous player arrivals (like MMOG with a persistent but static world). I think a "Newcomer area" system needs to be design out of TFC itself (the mod, but with the community) to support the continous player arrivals, but not just for the copper issue in this case. Maybe you can have a "spawning temple", like a dolmen circle, with some information and guide for starting and good practises. And just after this, a large area, naturally closed like an island, with at least some copper deposits. Its delimited chunks can be regenerate regularly, and maybe have two areas to have a rotation if newcomers will stay too much time into one. Obviously, old players would not be allowed to exploit theses areas.

 

I think it's needed to make a choice between a playgroup starting gameplay (in same time or old players helping newcomers) or parallel starting gameplay (different unexploited spawn areas or spawn area regeneration). But to return on the subject, i'm not really sure than flowers/nuggets "auto-tag" is the good solution, even i'm not really disturb by this.

Edited by lucan6029
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I honestly did not imagine that anyone would be against this idea. It just makes a little better for the people that join a server after the first week. 

 

But that's the point, it is only an issue for people who are after the first week. How often do you reset the map? Once a year? Never? People there first get an advantage, but after them (and you'd hope they were the ones who set the main villages up) everyone has the same level playing field.

 

How about there's setting to STOP ground spawning nuggets, then everyone has the same level playing field and no one gets an advantage, regardless of if they were in the first week of a server reset?

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I see your point and could almost agree. In a sense I dislike the feature of just finding nuggets scattered around that will allow you to make your first tools. It is realistic in a way that ancient people actually did that, but it was not the same breakthrough in technology level as we have in game. Finding a few metal pieces on the surface did not allow stone age people to start mining.

The first mines were actually on the surface and people used a basic system using fire and water to break the rocks.

From the wiki:

However, it is the Romans who developed large scale mining methods, especially the use of large volumes of water brought to the minehead by numerousaqueducts. The water was used for a variety of purposes, including removing overburden and rock debris, called hydraulic mining, as well as washingcomminuted, or crushed, ores and driving simple machinery.

The Romans used hydraulic mining methods on a large scale to prospect for the veins of ore, especially a now obsolete form of mining known as hushing. It involved building numerous aqueducts to supply water to the minehead where it was stored in large reservoirs and tanks. When a full tank was opened, the wave of water sluiced away the overburden to expose the bedrock underneath and any gold veins. The rock was then attacked by fire-setting to heat the rock, which would be quenched with a stream of water. The thermal shock cracked the rock, enabling it to be removed, aided by further streams of water from the overhead tanks. The Roman miners used similar methods to work cassiterite deposits in Cornwall and lead ore in the Pennines.

As you see mining was as simple as making the first pickaxe from nuggets found on the surface. 

My point remains, is not about the fact that is easy for the first players. Is the fact that when they collect the nuggets they also remove the indication of the existence of ore on that spot. I am somewhat OK with the first players having an advantage and picking up the nuggets, All I want is for players that come latter to at least know that there is an ore vein on that spot. 

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Before I discovered TFC, I played with Custom Ore Generation mod, which spawns rarely located large resources clusters, instead of standard evenly scattered.

Once cluster was discovered, it gave opportunity to build mine, transport solutions etc., but it was very hard to found any.

Therefore I added OreFlowers mod from Harder Ores pack, and it was good idea.

Please note, that this mod is not a simply 'cheat', gives sometimes 'false positives' - it is spawning ore indicators even if there is no ore nearby.

I think, that both methods - flora indicators and prospector pick, would work nice together, especially if rarity parameters are set to low.

 

Unfortunately, OreFlowers are not compatible with TFC (it spawns everywhere only uranium indicators), I hope that it is possible to fix (I will ask OreFlowers author),

or would be considered to include in TFC2.

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I see your point and could almost agree. In a sense I dislike the feature of just finding nuggets scattered around that will allow you to make your first tools. It is realistic in a way that ancient people actually did that, but it was not the same breakthrough in technology level as we have in game. Finding a few metal pieces on the surface did not allow stone age people to start mining.

The first mines were actually on the surface and people used a basic system using fire and water to break the rocks.

From the wiki:

However, it is the Romans who developed large scale mining methods, especially the use of large volumes of water brought to the minehead by numerousaqueducts. The water was used for a variety of purposes, including removing overburden and rock debris, called hydraulic mining, as well as washingcomminuted, or crushed, ores and driving simple machinery.

The Romans used hydraulic mining methods on a large scale to prospect for the veins of ore, especially a now obsolete form of mining known as hushing. It involved building numerous aqueducts to supply water to the minehead where it was stored in large reservoirs and tanks. When a full tank was opened, the wave of water sluiced away the overburden to expose the bedrock underneath and any gold veins. The rock was then attacked by fire-setting to heat the rock, which would be quenched with a stream of water. The thermal shock cracked the rock, enabling it to be removed, aided by further streams of water from the overhead tanks. The Roman miners used similar methods to work cassiterite deposits in Cornwall and lead ore in the Pennines.

As you see mining was as simple as making the first pickaxe from nuggets found on the surface. 

My point remains, is not about the fact that is easy for the first players. Is the fact that when they collect the nuggets they also remove the indication of the existence of ore on that spot. I am somewhat OK with the first players having an advantage and picking up the nuggets, All I want is for players that come latter to at least know that there is an ore vein on that spot. 

yes and no...there is a lot of evidence in historical writings that the ancient world experienced a higher number of meteor showers than we have in recent years. The ore was scattered along the ground and yes made tech breakthroughs but it was limited. This made them turn to mining and sluicing to keep up with the demand. The ancients did make tools and weapons from the nuggets they found and there are pictures to show that. This is all that you can really produce with nuggets in game anyways. I suppose if you are lucky you can do more.

 

Perhaps, making the nuggets reappear after a time would be a better suggestion? What would stop "said person" from destroying the ore flowers to keep a location secret? As far as I know they don't return either.

Edited by Teagan75
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One possible way to deal with the issue is to have a variety of detection techniques, each with their own advantages and disadvantages. 

 

1-Propick is great, as is scans over 15k blocks.  Disadvantage is that it requires metal, so the player must first find some metal (possibly quite a bit, if they make saw and pick first).  

 

2-Another option might be flowers.  Advantage - they respawn if removed, and require no resources from the player.  Disadvantage - they only are good for 5 blocks down.  So they only indicate shallow veins.   

 

3-Another method might be a dousing rod.  Advantage - made from four sticks, and detects the same range down as nuggets - 35 blocks.  Disadvantages - It only detects in a 3x3 (or 1x1?) column directly below the player, and it does *not*  indicate the type or quantity of ore (although it does only detect metals, not minerals).  Also it takes a little time to use (if possible code/animation-wise), so the player must stand still. 

 

So there you have 3 methods - 1 shallow, taking no resources, and renews iteself, another intermediate depth and large area, but requiring metal to make, and a third requiring simple materials, deep detection range, but only good in a very limited column, and not metal-specific.  Having a variety of methods each with their own strengths and weaknesses might help address the nugget-scouring issue of servers.  None of this of course addresses the methods magic might bring to the table.  But I'd envision magic as being a post-metal tech, so less about starting players finding their first nuggets, more about finding those 'lost' veins.

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I like these 3 ideas - the last one gives a way for beginning Steve to find scarce resources on a server that has been 'picked clean' of materials near spawn

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I honestly don't think that new players would really bother with the 3rd option because of how limited it is. The thing about nuggets is that you can see them from a distance. If players instead had to check every single block on the surface for a nugget and not be able to do a wide scan at a glance it would be ridiculously tedious.

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Ya, narrow scanning would definitely be tedious - I'd definitely be disinclined personally. The area scanned could be changed to find an happy medium maybe.  But consider that any given vein, at a deep range, you're probably going to have an entire chunk that would scan as solid (have at least 1 block of ore in a given column to a depth of 35-ish), with a good chance of adjacent chunks having scattered blocks.  Even if the scan column of 3x3, you'd probably only need to hit every 6th block or so to do an extremely thorough job.  And a casual scan could basically be done with just 1 per chunk I imagine.

 

Some tools might work best in combo.  For instance how a sluice scans a huge area and pulls minerals found in the area.  The player can use this as a broad-scan tool, and then use a very narrow range tool like the dousing rod to narrow it down.  an entire world is of course overwhelming to use a narrow range tool.  but a 200x200 area is around 150 chunks.  not totally insurmountable for cursory deep-narrow scans perhaps.

 

Another example - magpies.  A player can capture one and familarize it.  And a magpie can be given a command or treat or something, and it scans a broad sluice-ish area, and if it finds certain 'shiny' metals, it brings a nugget to the player.  This search takes a few minutes, so it's not spammable, and maybe magpies can't search at night.   Now the player knows that somewhere in this area is gold, or copper, or silver, etc.  Having gotten an indicator with their broad-shallow tool, now they can use their intermediate (propick) or narrow-deep (dousing rod) tool to narrow down the location.  

 

So those are two examples of broad-shallow tools - sluice and magpie.   The sluice takes a lot of time and requires a saw, but operates automatically.   A magpie operates faster(?) and doesn't require metal tools maybe, but perhaps finds fewer kinds of metals?  And no gems.   Probably would still have to contribute to overworking for balance sake.  Unless magpies were rare enough that it's just considered lucky if a  player finds one, so they can use them to find nuggets as much as they want.  Or maybe magpies are very unreliable, unless used by a druid (if such a class existed).   Animal training skill? So many detailed options.

 

I think the main issue is the lost veins.  So maybe just having some advanced methods would be enough to address that.  Magic that can scan an area as wide as a propick, but 35 (or more) deep.  The propick scans a wide enough area that it can be used to carpet-pick an area - I've done this a lot.  Unfortunately it's just short range enough that in the deepest soil areas it can mostly miss the top rock layer.  So if there were some magic that could get to nugget depth, with a scan range similar to propick, that'd pretty much address the stripping of nuggets making for lost veins. 

 

In any case, I think it would be interesting if higher tier methods(magical or not) had advantages and disadvantages; maybe some don't work if there is water within a certain range.  Some might not work without sky exposure.  Some might work only a sub-7 light levels.  Some might require trained animals.  Some might work only for specific minerals/metals.   Another might involve a structure, take a long time, but eventually scan to very deep levels (though limited by the new lower sea level of TFC2 I guess). 

 

I could understand if, in the end, this was left to modders, since it's a specific target crowd (large servers).  But The results are almost certainly going to be better and more immersive if 'baked in', I'd think.

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I could understand if, in the end, this was left to modders, since it's a specific target crowd (large servers).  But The results are almost certainly going to be better and more immersive if 'baked in', I'd think.

I think you nailed here.

People that do not play on big servers have no idea how useful this would be.

It gives me the impression that most tfc players only play single player and the Dev's play on small servers where you have 3 or 4 friends getting together for the weekend. ( Please correct me if wrong).

Not a critic, as players and Dev's alike are free to the play the style that they like best.

So unless we can get someone that enjoys playing in large servers and at the same time is capable and willing to code we will not have these ideas in the game.

It is just so frustrating to know that so much ore is forever lost underground, because someone went ahead and collect all the nuggets from the surface and left no mark.

The flower idea if implemented correctly, would help in many ways:

  1. It should spawn with the same conditions as nuggets.
  2. It needs to respawn year after year as long as there is ore bellow.
  3. One species/color of flower per ore. So people can easily relate flower with specific ore.
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There was a poll about how people play TFC once. If I recall correctly about half of the players that voted play TFC alone in singleplayer. In my experience though most people who play on servers don't frequent these forums since they use mod packs for ease of installation and use websites that list all servers to find somewhere to play.

A lot of people complain about not being able to find nuggets right away. Those are, in my opinion, usually also the players who shouldn't be playing TFC. Our previous map was 80.000 x 80.000 blocks in size and still people complained about not being able to find stuff. Which is complete nonsense as over 60% of the region files (512x512 blocks) of that map were never even loaded after it was first generated and the 40% that was loaded was mostly just traveled through without players settling down and using up the available resources. That's a map that has had about 8000 individual players on it.

That being said, I like the idea of respawning flowers to indicate the presence of ores. If anything it'll give people playing on servers something to look for without the nagging thought that someone else may have already cleared out the entire map. If enabled by config setting it might also allow for flowers to spawn to indicate ores in deeper layers. I know that a lot of people have trouble locating ore using a propick. Having a single flower that tells them there is ore located in this, or any adjacent chunks, below level Y would be a big help.

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Our previous map was 80.000 x 80.000 blocks in size and still people complained about not being able to find stuff. Which is complete nonsense as over 60% of the region files (512x512 blocks) of that map were never even loaded after it was first generated and the 40% that was loaded was mostly just traveled through without players settling down and using up the available resources. That's a map that has had about 8000 individual players on it.

 

 

If your server has a single spawn point then the people could probably be justified in saying this - with 8000 players, every piece of ore within a goodly few thousand blocks of spawn will have been picked clean.

If you've got multiple spawning points over a broad range of locations then I would possibly be inclined to agree with you.

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I have seen the same on other server. People don't see the nuggets and start complaining about the lack of ore.

Even after 6 months of continuous mining by hundreds of players I was still able to find ore within a 200 block radius of spawn.

 

But a lot of the people who complain about the lack of ore don't want to look for it, they don't want to search for ore, they want it handed to them on a silver platter. I agree with InsaneJ TFC might not be the right mod for them.

Then again, if those people don't mind trading for ore, there will always be people who are able to find ore and are willing to trade it away.

 

I like the suggestions made here, and I would most definitely like to see configuration options for them, so they can be implemented gradually so the people who are good at finding ore do not loose their edge.

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If your server has a single spawn point then the people could probably be justified in saying this - with 8000 players, every piece of ore within a goodly few thousand blocks of spawn will have been picked clean.

If you've got multiple spawning points over a broad range of locations then I would possibly be inclined to agree with you.

Sorry, but this is simply not true. Like Lenaco said, most people don't want to look for stuff. Even if it's still very much available close to spawn. What happens most of the time is that new players take a road in one of the cardinal directions and look for stuff along the road side. Guess what? If you look at the same place someone else has looked, then it's likely you won't find anything. But if you wander off in another direction that's not an obvious route, then you will soon find stuff. However since roads are easy and safe to travel, that's where most people will en up traveling.

 

Moving spawn periodically doesn't help either. Within a week people will start complaining again. We know, we've tried. Even if you show them resources close to spawn they'll say everything else has been picked clean, even if it clearly hasn't. After having run TFC servers for several years we're pretty experienced with how these things go.

 

Dedicated players are never an issue. They know TFC and they know how to look for resources. It's mainly newbies and weekend warriors that complain and argue. We will always try to be helpful and patient. But after a few hundred of those complaints it just gets a little tiresome to have to explain this all over again. And the funny thing is, if you visit their towns after a couple of days they will somehow have managed to procure ingots of different kinds of metals.

 

In my opinion the biggest reason for wanting respawning flowers is so we can simply tell players to look for those as a friendly way of helping them out that everybody can be sure is going to work.

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My apologies - I was confusing "ore" with "nuggets"...

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In my opinion the biggest reason for wanting respawning flowers is so we can simply tell players to look for those as a friendly way of helping them out that everybody can be sure is going to work.

This. 

Exactly like that.

I never had trouble finding ores and experienced players don't even bring up the issue. 

But I still think it would be a cool feature and would add value to the game.

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